How is it possible for KTM to race the 350?

williamsmotowerx
Edited Date/Time 1/26/2012 5:57am
It's not available?

I love the idea/concept and want it to be a factor... but how is the AMA going to allow it?

2010 1/2 model?

(hidden message to newmann.... it's going to be christmas for you and yours fri)
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redalert144
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redalert144 10/1/2009 11:59pm
10/1/2009 11:59pm
That's why he is not racing sx, he's nit very good at it anyway. Read the mxa article about him, by the time it's homologated it'll be time for outdoors, that's when he'll ride.
Lightning78
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Lightning78 10/2/2009 12:23am
10/2/2009 12:23am
redalert144 wrote:
That's why he is not racing sx, he's nit very good at it anyway. Read the mxa article about him, by the time it's homologated it'll...
That's why he is not racing sx, he's nit very good at it anyway. Read the mxa article about him, by the time it's homologated it'll be time for outdoors, that's when he'll ride.
Exactly i was gonna write the same thing there will be 200+ units in the states by the time the outdoors start....KTM isn't a "Major Manufacturer" compared to the Japanese so they can get away with smaller numbers available to the public. Williams if this 350 thing catches on I'm sure you'll be a busy man making them faster IMO you should be stoked on this project.
creed
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creed 10/2/2009 1:06am
10/2/2009 1:06am
What about the weight factor will that be a problem
Zacka 161
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Zacka 161 10/2/2009 1:52am
10/2/2009 1:52am
does KTM have there first year factory bike allowance still available?

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williamsmotowerx 10/2/2009 2:10am
10/2/2009 2:10am
I didn't know he wasn't racing SX.

Trust me Lightning... I am stoked if they go to 350's! I do about 100 250f's a year... maybe 15 450's.

It would be an economy booster for a ton of different companies switching to a 350.
mx317
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mx317 10/2/2009 4:44am
10/2/2009 4:44am
Zacka 161 wrote:
does KTM have there first year factory bike allowance still available?
No, they used it with Lance Smail on the 520 (if memory serves). I know it was used.
BIGHEAD1
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BIGHEAD1 10/2/2009 5:03am
10/2/2009 5:03am
Pretty sure next year for the nationals the manufacturers are allowed to race the following years bike before they are available for sale... That might be one of DC's "things to work on" but I swear "I heard" or read that somewhere....

Nikhil
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Nikhil 10/2/2009 6:32am
10/2/2009 6:32am
At the top level of Reed, Stewart, RV, and Alessi though, aren't they using all the power they can get out of the 450? I can see a smaller bike being better in SX, but I can't see it happening outdoors. I feel like Alessi will just be at a disadvantage.
redalert144
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redalert144 10/2/2009 7:10am
10/2/2009 7:10am
Nikhil wrote:
At the top level of Reed, Stewart, RV, and Alessi though, aren't they using all the power they can get out of the 450? I can...
At the top level of Reed, Stewart, RV, and Alessi though, aren't they using all the power they can get out of the 450? I can see a smaller bike being better in SX, but I can't see it happening outdoors. I feel like Alessi will just be at a disadvantage.
I really doubt that even they are using all the power that could be made with a 450. I think train of thought I believe is, that you can't the same useable hp figures that the top guys are capable of using, with less rotational mass. I have read many interview and bike tests that say that factory 450 built to the tilt would be absolutely unrideable cause it'd rip your arms off. So if ktm can get the 70 or so hp that the top guys are at, ktm will have a distinct advantage
`ol Ger
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`ol Ger 10/2/2009 7:19am
10/2/2009 7:19am
"On any Sunday..."
Crush
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Crush 10/2/2009 7:50am
10/2/2009 7:50am
redalert144 wrote:
I really doubt that even they are using all the power that could be made with a 450. I think train of thought I believe is...
I really doubt that even they are using all the power that could be made with a 450. I think train of thought I believe is, that you can't the same useable hp figures that the top guys are capable of using, with less rotational mass. I have read many interview and bike tests that say that factory 450 built to the tilt would be absolutely unrideable cause it'd rip your arms off. So if ktm can get the 70 or so hp that the top guys are at, ktm will have a distinct advantage
70hp...

Who's bike is making 70hp...???
redalert144
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redalert144 10/2/2009 8:00am
10/2/2009 8:00am
Crush wrote:
70hp...

Who's bike is making 70hp...???
Well stock 450s are just under 60, so it's not very hard for me to think a full on factory 450 would be 70. Why is that hard to believe? Ricky Dietrich said in 1 of his first interviews after riding the factory kawi that his bike had unbelieveable hp. That he had to have the bike detuned back down to stock, so he could ride it
suzrider982
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suzrider982 10/2/2009 8:03am
10/2/2009 8:03am
Alot of guys on the 450s dont get them full blown moded like the 250fs tho becausae they are to fast
bvm111
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bvm111 10/2/2009 8:06am
10/2/2009 8:06am
so you just didnt read the MXA article, they clearly state it wont be homologized for SX, therefore, he will ride and test in europe and california until the Nationals!!!
Matt Fisher 10/2/2009 8:09am
10/2/2009 8:09am
BIGHEAD1 wrote:
Pretty sure next year for the nationals the manufacturers are allowed to race the following years bike before they are available for sale... That might be...
Pretty sure next year for the nationals the manufacturers are allowed to race the following years bike before they are available for sale... That might be one of DC's "things to work on" but I swear "I heard" or read that somewhere....

That would be tough to monitor, given that there are often changes between what's raced and what's built. I'd suggest having each mfg get the opportunity to have a "works" bike every few years, maybe 5?
Nikhil
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Nikhil 10/2/2009 8:46am
10/2/2009 8:46am
Nikhil wrote:
At the top level of Reed, Stewart, RV, and Alessi though, aren't they using all the power they can get out of the 450? I can...
At the top level of Reed, Stewart, RV, and Alessi though, aren't they using all the power they can get out of the 450? I can see a smaller bike being better in SX, but I can't see it happening outdoors. I feel like Alessi will just be at a disadvantage.
redalert144 wrote:
I really doubt that even they are using all the power that could be made with a 450. I think train of thought I believe is...
I really doubt that even they are using all the power that could be made with a 450. I think train of thought I believe is, that you can't the same useable hp figures that the top guys are capable of using, with less rotational mass. I have read many interview and bike tests that say that factory 450 built to the tilt would be absolutely unrideable cause it'd rip your arms off. So if ktm can get the 70 or so hp that the top guys are at, ktm will have a distinct advantage
I remember reading MXA's test of Reed's RMZ though, and they were talking about just how souped up the engine is. It was tearing their arms off, but it seems to me like the top guys are conditioned to ride with that kind of power.
JackLHyde
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JackLHyde 10/2/2009 9:01am
10/2/2009 9:01am
redalert144 wrote:
Well stock 450s are just under 60, so it's not very hard for me to think a full on factory 450 would be 70. Why is...
Well stock 450s are just under 60, so it's not very hard for me to think a full on factory 450 would be 70. Why is that hard to believe? Ricky Dietrich said in 1 of his first interviews after riding the factory kawi that his bike had unbelieveable hp. That he had to have the bike detuned back down to stock, so he could ride it
Just under 60? That sounds like dealer-talk. I think they're just above 50 hp, like 52 or so.
indy_maico
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indy_maico 10/2/2009 9:06am
10/2/2009 9:06am
I doubt that anyone is getting 70 hp out of a 450.

The ways to make power are limited to more fuel/air in, rpm, compression, and less internal friction.

These are all limited in some way by either packaging (air box size and fuel delivery), fuel specs, etc.

There are certainly ways to make power gains with ceramic bearings, valve lift, etc, but
any HP increases are way more incremental than gaining 25% over what they are making stock

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calimxer91
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calimxer91 10/2/2009 9:11am
10/2/2009 9:11am
Let em Race whatever they want.Dumb rule .70 hp lmao.
BornA'Lil2Slow 10/2/2009 9:14am
10/2/2009 9:14am
suzrider982 wrote:
Alot of guys on the 450s dont get them full blown moded like the 250fs tho becausae they are to fast
exactly

In fact, ALOT of the factory motors are detuned a bit. They are going for spread of power and moving it around to suit the riders.

name any time you have seen a bone stock 250 2 stroke motor pull holeshots at the pro level back in the day, it was rare if not unheard of. How many times have we seen bone stock, or maybe just a pipe, 4 strokes bust holeshots and get top finishes, ALOT. DV comes to mind back in 05/06? they loaded up a stock 450, shipped it to the west coast, it had suspension done. He yanks the holeshot. And it didnt even have a pipe if memory serves. Desalle, bone stock motor, top 5. Voss, you can go on.

Alessi did get on the box at Indy, so he must have some sort of SX skill. If he could get the whoops dialed, think about it. he gives up 1 or 2 seconds a lap in the whoops, but has the same lap times as guys killing it in the whoops. Imagine if he could kill the whoops along with the rest of the track. The guy has determination and heart.
newmann
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newmann 10/2/2009 9:24am
10/2/2009 9:24am
70 HP? Pussy bike. The Japanese engineers sent over to test with Kent Howerton in 1983 told him that they could get up to 80 hp out of his SR500 works bike if he needed it. Pretty cool bike, mostly because it's mine now.Smile
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 10/2/2009 9:26am
10/2/2009 9:26am
Even back in the 500 two stroke days, guys detuned the bikes so they could ride them smoother and with less energy, and I'm sure the factories do that to 450s now. It could be a problem on long starts and uphills, but I'll bet you won't be able to tell much difference in pure speed. If riders can pitch a 350 into a turn with more confidence than a 450, they'll be competitive lap time wise, but it could be hard to pass a 450 if you're always getting blocked in the turns and pulled out of the corners for the first 100 feet or so. That's how it was when I rode a 250 against 450s and 520s.
newmann
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newmann 10/2/2009 9:27am
10/2/2009 9:27am
williamsmotowerx wrote:
It's not available? I love the idea/concept and want it to be a factor... but how is the AMA going to allow it? 2010 1/2 model...
It's not available?

I love the idea/concept and want it to be a factor... but how is the AMA going to allow it?

2010 1/2 model?

(hidden message to newmann.... it's going to be christmas for you and yours fri)
Thanks, the kid still has a bunch of work to do though. Maybe having the engine sitting there will motovate him!
BUTCH
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BUTCH 10/2/2009 10:04am
10/2/2009 10:04am
Over in the race talk forum, a while back, a guy that was a builder claimed his motors dyno'd out at around 72hp! just say'n
MxChick613
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MxChick613 10/2/2009 11:20am
10/2/2009 11:20am
Stock 2009 YZ450F - 59.1 Hp
Stock 2009 YZ250F - 42 Hp
Sock 2009 YZ125 - 37.8 Hp

Just checked the MSO's.
MxChick613
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MxChick613 10/2/2009 11:20am
10/2/2009 11:20am
Stock 2009 YZ450F - 59.1 Hp
Stock 2009 YZ250F - 42 Hp
Sock 2009 YZ125 - 37.8 Hp

Just checked the MSO's.
PitchMan
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PitchMan 10/2/2009 12:00pm
10/2/2009 12:00pm
MxChick613 wrote:
Stock 2009 YZ450F - 59.1 Hp
Stock 2009 YZ250F - 42 Hp
Sock 2009 YZ125 - 37.8 Hp

Just checked the MSO's.
That is crankshaft not rear wheel just to clarify. Rear wheel is considerably lower.
racin mason
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racin mason 10/2/2009 12:54pm
10/2/2009 12:54pm
I think the rule should be 25 bikes are made to be eligible to race,kind of like the original yz,not just anyone could buy one, most all of them went to shop sponserd riders.If the big 5 were allowed to do this that would mean 125 factory built race bikes per class,available to the best riders in the country.
Lightning78
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Lightning78 10/2/2009 1:02pm
10/2/2009 1:02pm
I think they should relax the production rule a little and let mfg's test out a new bike ever couple years or so like it was mentioned above not only would they be cool to look at but we'd get newe technology and developements much faster and possibly help aleviate some first year model bike problems.
williamsmotowerx 10/2/2009 1:09pm
10/2/2009 1:09pm
Is there still a claim rule for pro?

I say bring back the works bikes, have a $20k claim rule.

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