Supercross Laptime 2stroke

luke11
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luke11
Watching JB and Marvin etc ride what are practically factory 2strokes on supercross tracks, I’m wondering what the lap time difference is, especially now the ktms are FI. Anyone have any insight?
For arguments sake, if a rider just so happened to be a little faster or the same speed on the 2stroke and said they felt more comfortable and consistent on it so you think the Austrian bosses would let them race supercross season on it?
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moto12356999 10/12/2022 3:01am
10/12/2022 3:01am
It’s a good question & one I doubt we will ever get the real credible answer.

I think it will conditions dependant, slippery turns with akward obstacles will suit a 4 stroke over a race distance. So most pros will hedge their bets.

No doubt the factory’s will always demand the winning riders are on 4 strokes, as 4 strokes are so much more expensive to race, they look at parts revenue. It’s never been in their interests to make the sport cheaper for us unfortunately, but their greed may have been short sighted as less riders & tracks may cost them more over all. Tut Tut.

When you consider Tomac & Sexton 1 minute over 3rd place in some races, I’ve often wondered if you put them on a 250T factory spec, could they still win. Quite Possibly I think.
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luke11
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luke11 10/12/2022 3:10am
10/12/2022 3:10am
“No doubt the factory’s will always demand the winning riders are on 4 strokes, as 4 strokes are so much more expensive to race, they look at parts revenue.” I would argue a 2stroke owner will buy more engine parts over the lifetime than a 4stroke rider?
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Richy
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Richy 10/12/2022 3:44am
10/12/2022 3:44am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2022 3:45am
You may be right nowadays with modern 4 strokes generally being reliable for a lot of hours, but at the same time, how often does a 2 Stroke rider grab an OE piston from KTM or Yamaha? Maybe it's more often than I'm assuming, but I'd expect most to skip straight to Wiseco, Vertex, whatever else.

Either way, I'd be very interested to see the difference between Marv on a new KTM 250 of both types, on their fast laps of course. An average time across race distance or with a few little mistakes thrown in I expect the four stroke would still be faster overall?

Not to harp on, we've heard it a billion times, but I still cannot believe the 250 class can't sack up and allow 250 2 Strokes. Almost everyone would still be on a four stroke anyway, just gives an option to the cool guys or fast folks struggling to pay for a season, it's insane. Even more so seeing as you can do exactly that at the amateur level.
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moto12356999 10/12/2022 3:53am
10/12/2022 3:53am
luke11 wrote:
“No doubt the factory’s will always demand the winning riders are on 4 strokes, as 4 strokes are so much more expensive to race, they look...
“No doubt the factory’s will always demand the winning riders are on 4 strokes, as 4 strokes are so much more expensive to race, they look at parts revenue.” I would argue a 2stroke owner will buy more engine parts over the lifetime than a 4stroke rider?
Have you ever priced up a rebuild on a 4 stroke ?

An average rider won’t wear a 250 2 stroke out anytime quick. I race a 250 sx & these bikes are very strong in the engine department.

4 strokes have so many more moving parts, it just cost more. At pro level running a 250f would be very expensive.

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davis224
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davis224 10/12/2022 4:04am
10/12/2022 4:04am
luke11 wrote:
“No doubt the factory’s will always demand the winning riders are on 4 strokes, as 4 strokes are so much more expensive to race, they look...
“No doubt the factory’s will always demand the winning riders are on 4 strokes, as 4 strokes are so much more expensive to race, they look at parts revenue.” I would argue a 2stroke owner will buy more engine parts over the lifetime than a 4stroke rider?
Get outta here with that realism. My 110 hour motor has never been opened up.
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moto12356999 10/12/2022 4:12am
10/12/2022 4:12am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2022 4:14am
Richy wrote:
You may be right nowadays with modern 4 strokes generally being reliable for a lot of hours, but at the same time, how often does a...
You may be right nowadays with modern 4 strokes generally being reliable for a lot of hours, but at the same time, how often does a 2 Stroke rider grab an OE piston from KTM or Yamaha? Maybe it's more often than I'm assuming, but I'd expect most to skip straight to Wiseco, Vertex, whatever else.

Either way, I'd be very interested to see the difference between Marv on a new KTM 250 of both types, on their fast laps of course. An average time across race distance or with a few little mistakes thrown in I expect the four stroke would still be faster overall?

Not to harp on, we've heard it a billion times, but I still cannot believe the 250 class can't sack up and allow 250 2 Strokes. Almost everyone would still be on a four stroke anyway, just gives an option to the cool guys or fast folks struggling to pay for a season, it's insane. Even more so seeing as you can do exactly that at the amateur level.
I think the issue is a 250t can win at pro level 250.

Just take a look at Luppici in EMX. Beating Everts, Horgmo etc on a fantic 250T.

Can you imagine what a top team could do with a 250T if they tried.
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Richy
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Richy 10/13/2022 4:13am
10/13/2022 4:13am Edited Date/Time 10/13/2022 4:16am
I do agree somewhat, but I think it'd still be rare to see the top guys on a two stroke as those guys are on factory bikes. The 250F gives that extra little margin for error, more easily repeatable lap times, slightly less energy expended, etc.

Say their best lap time is on the factory 250 two stroke, I agree entirely that could be the case, but their overall race time is still probably better on a factory 250 four stroke.

I do think what you're saying is totally possible and if we were talking a lightly modified bike then I'd agree with your take even more so, probably fully, but say a factory YZ 250 vs a Star YZ 250F... I reckon it'd get murky.

Either way, I really hope we get to see it sometime, there are no negatives for the sport, just companies pockets, so that said I won't hold my breath sadly.
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Falcon
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Falcon 10/13/2022 8:41am
10/13/2022 8:41am
Following AMA rules, a 125 wouldn't stand a chance against 250Fs, and dare I say it - neither would a 250 vs. 450Fs.
If we're talking equal displacement, I still think a relatively cheap (privateer-modded) 250 would beat all the factory 250Fs - on power and rideability, that is. To answer the OP's question though, I think all the factory talent would still be on 250Fs for the most part. I'd sure love to see a modern-era "works" 250, though.
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moto12356999 10/13/2022 12:58pm
10/13/2022 12:58pm
Richy wrote:
I do agree somewhat, but I think it'd still be rare to see the top guys on a two stroke as those guys are on factory...
I do agree somewhat, but I think it'd still be rare to see the top guys on a two stroke as those guys are on factory bikes. The 250F gives that extra little margin for error, more easily repeatable lap times, slightly less energy expended, etc.

Say their best lap time is on the factory 250 two stroke, I agree entirely that could be the case, but their overall race time is still probably better on a factory 250 four stroke.

I do think what you're saying is totally possible and if we were talking a lightly modified bike then I'd agree with your take even more so, probably fully, but say a factory YZ 250 vs a Star YZ 250F... I reckon it'd get murky.

Either way, I really hope we get to see it sometime, there are no negatives for the sport, just companies pockets, so that said I won't hold my breath sadly.
I agree if we talking today, star 250f is probably the best weapon in 250 class, but what if star also had the option to run a 250T, spend the off season developing it, how much HP could be possible with a 250T with a top team budget ?

I think the 250T will probably also be a more skillful bike to master, but dang when a rider fully gels with one they can haul the Mail.

Can anyone remember RC reeling in everts in the deep sand of zolder on his cr250 ? Everts was riding a the finely dialled in rinaldi Yamaha 450 in deep sand, RC on a smoker smoked him.





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