Mtb guys, front end traction

big.dos
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5/4/2020 3:07pm
35PSI in your tyres is likely to be the main culprit. Depending on your body weight you should be somewhere in the 20-25PSI range on the front and 25-30 on the rear. Ardents are also a trash front tyre for anything outside of XC racing, as they have little grip and next to no sidewall stiffness (hence why you need so much pressure). Get yourself an Assegai for the front and some cushcores and you'll notice a world of difference. Also re-check front and rear sag as others have mentioned. I would say that around the 20% mark would be a good guide for the front but a quick search on the Rockshox web site should give you a pretty good base setting for both the spring rate and compression/rebound. I typically go around 5-10% higher than the base settings (relative to body weight) as I prefer a slightly firmer setup - you might find doing the same helps if you are more familiar with riding a moto.
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AJ565
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5/4/2020 5:34pm
Ok this is where I’m at now. I did two things first I dropped pressure to 30 rear and 25 front. 30 in the rear is to low and now my sidewalls are not happy with me and are seeping orange seal lol. The front was ok, it has more marks on the side then it normally does so I think I’ll bump it up to 28 next time and see how that goes until I get new tires.

After knowing what the tires felt like I unlocked the forks into the middle setting with the adjusted rebound. It was much improved over last time, but still didn’t hook up as well as in climb mode. Then I flipped it down to decent mode and that still sucks lol. I did flip back and forth between climb and trail quite a few times to compare what the front was doing.

What I noticed after the ride is my travel bands didn’t move as far as normal. I’m not sure if it was the rolling resistance slowing me down through fast sections that I normally blow through the travel pretty often or if it was the rebound helping to keep it up in the stroke more. When I set the forks the other day they were at 18%, after the ride they are riding about 13% sag so next time I will try it at 20%. It is hotter today then when I set them so that was my mistake not double checking them before the ride.

Overall my average speed is in the same area as normal, my top speed is down a few mph. So through the fast sections I was slower, but the tight stuff I was able to push more than normal for how the dirt is right now and made up the difference. This was a 10.5 mile ride so I had a good about of time to compare the settings.

Big.dos, yes I’m more moto back ground and prefer a stiffer setup.


big.dos
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5/4/2020 5:59pm
Sounds like you are making some progress! Another note - Those tyres you have there are the lowest level in terms of rubber compound that Maxxis makes. They do a variety of multi-compound tyres which are softer on the corner nobs and firmer in the middle. Go for a "Maxx Grip" tyre on the front (softest compound) and a "Maxx Terra" on the rear. You will feel a huge difference on the Ardents you have now in terms of compound and feel. You could also run a "Maxx Grip" on the rear but I find they wear out really fast if you ride regularly.
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5/4/2020 9:33pm
what is your rims inner width? Ardents are not good for the front
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The Shop

AJ565
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5/5/2020 6:13am
big.dos wrote:
Sounds like you are making some progress! Another note - Those tyres you have there are the lowest level in terms of rubber compound that Maxxis...
Sounds like you are making some progress! Another note - Those tyres you have there are the lowest level in terms of rubber compound that Maxxis makes. They do a variety of multi-compound tyres which are softer on the corner nobs and firmer in the middle. Go for a "Maxx Grip" tyre on the front (softest compound) and a "Maxx Terra" on the rear. You will feel a huge difference on the Ardents you have now in terms of compound and feel. You could also run a "Maxx Grip" on the rear but I find they wear out really fast if you ride regularly.
I'll look into them, thank you.
AJ565
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5/5/2020 6:14am
what is your rims inner width? Ardents are not good for the front
28mm. I agree its not a great tire.
Crush
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5/5/2020 8:32am Edited Date/Time 5/5/2020 8:48am
Yeah 18% is not much. Try get to at least 25%...

Also, rebound should be pretty quick... try opening it up, and slowing your low-speed compression a little to hold your fork up once your pressures/sag are a bit more on the money.... could be similar our back, you want to be evenly distributed. Could be your unweighting the front.

Tyre pressure – i'm 240-250 pounds, not slow, our trails are rocky... I've got cushcore but run at least 26–27 PSI up front... 28–30 on the back.

I've not had any luck not destroying DHR/DHFs... Lots of our mates run the Assegais from Maxxis. I'm running the Michelin Wilds. So good. Try em out!

But more than anything else – body position is way more sensitive to turning on a mtb. Get up front and you can make that thing turn, literally on a dime. It's ridiculous how quick and tight you can turn even before you start whipping them with your legs or doing cutties.

Get your setup sorted for feel, but watch someone like Bryn Atkinson for technique. MTB isn't moto at all.
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rosebud441
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5/5/2020 11:34am
for the love of Pete, get a Maxxis Minion on the nose!!
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AJ565
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5/5/2020 12:35pm Edited Date/Time 5/5/2020 12:38pm
Thanks for the replys guys. I'm currently looking at the Minion DHF in a 2.3 or 2.5WT for the front and a Minion SS EXO for the rear in a 2.3. My other (and cheaper for now) option is to get the DHF for the front and put the 2.4 Ardent I have now on the back.
trexx
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5/5/2020 3:20pm
30% sag front and rear, 2.6 specialized butcher grid at 25psi, dead rear end and speed up the rebound 2-3 clicks up front. Never had any issues in the slick rocky junk I ride
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big.dos
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5/5/2020 3:52pm
AJ565 wrote:
Thanks for the replys guys. I'm currently looking at the Minion DHF in a 2.3 or 2.5WT for the front and a Minion SS EXO for...
Thanks for the replys guys. I'm currently looking at the Minion DHF in a 2.3 or 2.5WT for the front and a Minion SS EXO for the rear in a 2.3. My other (and cheaper for now) option is to get the DHF for the front and put the 2.4 Ardent I have now on the back.
Go the minion on the front to begin with if you want to keep costs low, just ensure it has the good compounds as mentioned above
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Crush
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5/5/2020 6:53pm
AJ565 wrote:
Thanks for the replys guys. I'm currently looking at the Minion DHF in a 2.3 or 2.5WT for the front and a Minion SS EXO for...
Thanks for the replys guys. I'm currently looking at the Minion DHF in a 2.3 or 2.5WT for the front and a Minion SS EXO for the rear in a 2.3. My other (and cheaper for now) option is to get the DHF for the front and put the 2.4 Ardent I have now on the back.
Really recommend the Michelin Wilds. Ridiculous traction.
AJ565
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5/5/2020 7:35pm
AJ565 wrote:
Thanks for the replys guys. I'm currently looking at the Minion DHF in a 2.3 or 2.5WT for the front and a Minion SS EXO for...
Thanks for the replys guys. I'm currently looking at the Minion DHF in a 2.3 or 2.5WT for the front and a Minion SS EXO for the rear in a 2.3. My other (and cheaper for now) option is to get the DHF for the front and put the 2.4 Ardent I have now on the back.
Crush wrote:
Really recommend the Michelin Wilds. Ridiculous traction.
There are a lot of good reviews on them and they are cheap, but it looks like they don’t last near as long as the others. Doesn’t seem to be any comparisons between them and the minions which is odd since the minions get compared to everything else.
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Rotaholic
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5/5/2020 7:49pm Edited Date/Time 5/5/2020 7:49pm
Definitely throw a DHF on the front, also if you're struggling for front end grip, always check your shock setting first. A foot shock will have too much sag and a light front end, sort the rear first and the fork should be easy to tune.
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Crush
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5/5/2020 8:02pm
AJ565 wrote:
There are a lot of good reviews on them and they are cheap, but it looks like they don’t last near as long as the others...
There are a lot of good reviews on them and they are cheap, but it looks like they don’t last near as long as the others. Doesn’t seem to be any comparisons between them and the minions which is odd since the minions get compared to everything else.
I've found they're wearing ok. Our trails are lots of rock – both sandstone slabs and lodged in dirt, so our wear rates are high. Been fine with them. There is a rear and front version, just softer compound up front. I'm run them that way but am going to switch to running rears on both ends – traction is good and then I can cycle them as I usually did.

I tore quite a few minions around the beads so went back to butchers because of price. But the michelins shit on butchers, and are similar price. Maxxis Assegais get a lot of good reviews here too and the DH type guys run double DHFs also.

Honestly, won't be disappointed in Wilds though, they're unreal!

mikenz7
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5/6/2020 7:11pm
Air forks are an art form to set up because of their inherent progressive nature, generally means unless you are in the narrow weight range the preset compression and rebound tune are designed for you will have issues
If you are a big fella, and running 35 psi in your tyres would suggest that you are, you really need some volume spacers in the air chamber, allows lower fork pressure while allowing the fork to retain enough ramp up to resist bottom out
use the little oring on the fork to determine how much travel you are using on a normal ride this should be approx 80% of total travel, keeping a little in reserve for when you get out of shape
If the fork feels better in the climb mode that is because the lockout switch is increasing the compression, it is not a true lock out, just increases the compression damping until the fork feels locked
As previously suggested 35 psi is crazy in your tyres, im 200 plus pounds and fast, and i never get close to 30psi
Change your tyres, go to something with a better sidewall and mix and match tyres, grip and support on the front, slightly faster rolling on the rear
AJ565
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5/6/2020 7:49pm
Ride report from tonight. I adjusted sag, although I don’t know if it’s right. I’m at 90 psi in them right now and for my weight (I’m 170 lbs) they say 85-115. If I just sit on the bike I get 15%, but if I bounce a few times like you would for Moto then roll it back and forth a few times to settle the suspension I get 20% so I left it there.

Forks wise the compression is maxed and I left them in trail mode the whole ride. Rebound is set at full open. The travel o-ring shows about 90% of travel used. Also of note I took the fork cap off and there are no tokens in the forks.

Tire pressure I put the rear back to 35 and bumped the front up to 28 and that seems like a good spot for these tires, they hooked up better than last ride (30r 25f) and were fast rolling and didn’t drag me down.

The bike did feel better and didn’t push as bad as it has been in trail mode so we’ve made progress, good work guys lol. My legs are sore from Monday’s ride and some leg workouts yesterday so my average speed was a little slower than it felt like when I was riding. I’ll ride again Friday and I’ll keep the same settings, but flip between climb and trail and see if it’s better one way or the other. I’m gonna order the DHF for the front and I think the Aggressor for the rear so hopefully I’ll be able to give those a try next week.
mikenz7
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5/6/2020 9:33pm
sag is a hard one, as it should be set while in your normal riding position, standing, elbows up weight forward etc etc, hard to do by yourself, if it feels better in trail mode then it is definitely an air volume vs air pressure issue
As you decrease the air volume in the fork you can decrease pressure to get better small bump compliance whilst still retaining mid stroke support and enough bottom out resistance to prevent bottoming, spacers are the key as all the dial adjustments in the world wont help unless you get your spring rate correct, and spring rate in an air fork is a function of volume and psi
Crush
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5/6/2020 9:43pm
Watch these two vides AJ. Seb Stott is the testing head for Bike Radar.





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AJ565
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5/7/2020 6:46am
Good videos, Crush. I'll run through the setups when I get home tonight and see how close I am. I tend to agree with him about the air pressures vs. sag numbers. I feel like I'm close on my pressures and need some tokens for my forks to handle the bottom out part. I'll see about getting those ordered today too.
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Crush
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5/7/2020 8:44pm
AJ565 wrote:
Good videos, Crush. I'll run through the setups when I get home tonight and see how close I am. I tend to agree with him about...
Good videos, Crush. I'll run through the setups when I get home tonight and see how close I am. I tend to agree with him about the air pressures vs. sag numbers. I feel like I'm close on my pressures and need some tokens for my forks to handle the bottom out part. I'll see about getting those ordered today too.
Yeah it's interesting isn't it. I think Mike above is right – air forks are an artform...You get used to whatever I guess but you also can't forget the rear end.

I've recently got my bike better balance wise... I had too slow rebound out back and it was chattering. I think I still need maybe a little more low-speed compression for g-outs/berms. I have a tendency to run too much rebound and not enough compression, probably the other way around is whereI need to be to stop it packing...

But now that the shock is following the ground quite nicely, i'm experimenting with the fork again – I want to chase a better base PSI then add tokens as needed. I think I can run a higher pressure and low-speed comp to keep the fork where it should be, and maybe 2 tokens (was 3) and again less rebound to let it follow the ground.

I do think it's interesting how sag is kinda viewed differently for MTB and moto. Sag almost only ever seems to be viewed in mtb as an indicator of your spring rate... but the impact on turning etc isn't as readily discussed. In moto it's an indication but people play with it to get the thing to settle or turn.
Crush
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5/7/2020 8:46pm
Also – another funny one.

In moto, no-one wants a fast rear end rebound wise. But in MTB, I constantly hear people wanting "pop"! And then you watch friday fails on pinkbike and EVERYONE is going over the bars off a jump!
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AJ565
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5/8/2020 6:13am
AJ565 wrote:
Good videos, Crush. I'll run through the setups when I get home tonight and see how close I am. I tend to agree with him about...
Good videos, Crush. I'll run through the setups when I get home tonight and see how close I am. I tend to agree with him about the air pressures vs. sag numbers. I feel like I'm close on my pressures and need some tokens for my forks to handle the bottom out part. I'll see about getting those ordered today too.
Crush wrote:
Yeah it's interesting isn't it. I think Mike above is right – air forks are an artform...You get used to whatever I guess but you also can't...
Yeah it's interesting isn't it. I think Mike above is right – air forks are an artform...You get used to whatever I guess but you also can't forget the rear end.

I've recently got my bike better balance wise... I had too slow rebound out back and it was chattering. I think I still need maybe a little more low-speed compression for g-outs/berms. I have a tendency to run too much rebound and not enough compression, probably the other way around is whereI need to be to stop it packing...

But now that the shock is following the ground quite nicely, i'm experimenting with the fork again – I want to chase a better base PSI then add tokens as needed. I think I can run a higher pressure and low-speed comp to keep the fork where it should be, and maybe 2 tokens (was 3) and again less rebound to let it follow the ground.

I do think it's interesting how sag is kinda viewed differently for MTB and moto. Sag almost only ever seems to be viewed in mtb as an indicator of your spring rate... but the impact on turning etc isn't as readily discussed. In moto it's an indication but people play with it to get the thing to settle or turn.
I played with the bike a little last night, my rear rebound was one click off on the curb drop. It would come back up to the same height so I went out two and it would go way past start height so I went in one click and it goes past start height and then back nice and smooth. I've had zero complaints about my rear suspension though as its always been pretty good about staying attached to the ground everywhere.

Out front I checked for bottoming like he video showed and I can bottom the forks out pushing on them full open, but in trail mode I can only get them to about 80-85%. I forgot to check on my fork size though so I can order the token kit so I'll do that tonight. Once I get them I'll get it setup so they don't bottom in full open and see how is rides. I'm also going to open the low speed compression back up and slow down the rebound 3 clicks and see how that does tonight.
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Crush
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5/8/2020 6:20am
Nice! It’s so rewarding to really experiment with it and get that definitive feeling of improvement!

Sounds like some tokens will definitely help you. On my old bike, before I upgraded the Yari to a Lyrik, trail mode was better than open, because I got some ramp up and the initial was shit either way. Now I’m looking for better sensitivity and then the same bottoming resistance.
AJ565
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5/8/2020 6:10pm
Ok so just finished tonight’s 10.5 mile ride and here is what I adjusted: turned the front rebound in 4 clicks from all the way open/fast, turned the low speed full soft. Sag I went from 90 psi to 95 psi. If I just sit on the bike that makes it say 15% sag. If I do it like in the video it’s at 20%. I left the fork setting on full open/decent whatever you want to call it. Tires I left at 28 front 35 rear. The rear shock I adjusted yesterday and set it at 20% sag, trail mode, and adjusted rebound as per the videos above.

For how it rode and handles it stuck to the ground almost like the dirt was tacky for the most part. It’s very dry hard pack with some spots chunking up because it’s so dry. The areas I knew it normally slides or pushes it held much better and the sliding it did do was very predictable and I kept peddling through it. The front bite was improved enough that some of the turns with the real loose stuff when the front held I was basically power sliding the rear because as I was peddling the side was stepped out in a very predictable slip. The fast rocky sections it handled the best it ever has with way less deflection then I remember.

Out back I had a little hopping here and there through the loose rock/root section. On the fast sections it stayed pretty planted and didn’t do any weird bucking or side hopping. I know that if I drop the rear pressure some that would help.

Overall it was a decent mph average being .1 mph off my PB average and 1.3 mph off my PB max speed. I lend some of that to trail condition changes and the accuracy of my garmin since it’s refresh rate isn’t the best at speeds. I did notice faster speeds than normal in a few sections because of how the suspension was keeping the tires planted better and not losing forward drive due to a hop.
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Crush
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5/8/2020 7:55pm
Sounds like it was a successful experiment then man!

Next step – pull a few unnecessary scandis and burn those tyres out, so you can justify some new ones!
AJ565
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5/8/2020 10:12pm
Crush wrote:
Sounds like it was a successful experiment then man! Next step – pull a few unnecessary scandis and burn those tyres out, so you can justify some...
Sounds like it was a successful experiment then man!

Next step – pull a few unnecessary scandis and burn those tyres out, so you can justify some new ones!
It was. Travel looks like I used about 90-95% so I’m good there. For sure would like some would like some more aggressive side lugs on the front. I was surprised how well it hooked up in the leaves as those are always slick.
Crush
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5/8/2020 10:28pm
That's one thing I like about the Wilds... they seem pretty consistent regardless of the dirt. I don't mind Butchers on decent conditions, but they suffer badly in any extreme... rock, wet or dry.

The Maxxis Assegais are meant to be great, same with Minions but i've just never had any luck with their sturdiness. Keep slashing/tearing sidewalls with them. A lot of our trails are dirty rocky shit though too.
Forty
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5/9/2020 5:44pm
Pay attention to tire pressure. It’s a real thing.
9bro9
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Fantasy
5/9/2020 8:01pm
I'm riding a 2018 Specialized Stumpjumper CC, I've ridden the Butchers as they came stock, and they are OK. I currently have it on my rear and it has been eaten up within the last few rides on some fairly rocky terrain. I'm currently running a Maxxis Minion DHF 29x2.5 WT up front and have also been tinkering with my suspension settings front and rear. I stiffened up my front fork quite a bit and the DHF hooks up awesome since I added a few psi to it, although I haven't measured my sag or the PSI but it's been great on the climb and plush on the descent.

I've ridden the DHF for a while and it's given me zero issues over some extremely rocky terrain and hooks up in the loose stuff too. I also have the same tire on my Specialized Demo 8 DH as well. I'm waiting for my order for the Assegai to show up for my rears on both rigs so I can stop spinning my rear butcher on the climbs and in corners under braking.
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