Contrary to the Media-Hype, Factory 450s: the actual number

ML512
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ML512 12/30/2016 11:29am
12/30/2016 11:29am
Motodave15 wrote:
and this is the reason, i would be interested in seeing a grid start and or rolling start to supercross


We don't have the room to do a proper rolling start in a Supercross.
MM504
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MM504 12/30/2016 11:31am
12/30/2016 11:31am
kkawboy14 wrote:
30 man mains! It's time
25 to 30 rider mains would be great and if you have to do the second row then I would be fine with that. I think with the longer mains it could work out. Maybe 22 on the main gate with 5 riders on the second row so 27 as a good number.
seth505
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seth505 12/30/2016 12:08pm
12/30/2016 12:08pm
I read the title quick/wrong and thought this was the factory bikes horsepower output...my eyes were buggin out man.
kiwifan
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kiwifan 12/30/2016 12:52pm
12/30/2016 12:52pm Edited Date/Time 12/30/2016 12:56pm
BigDaddyG wrote:
The Privateer and support ride hopes of making a main are getting slimmer and slimmer each year which will force them away and in a few...
The Privateer and support ride hopes of making a main are getting slimmer and slimmer each year which will force them away and in a few years there will be local pros and then factory riders. Nothing in between.

There is going to have to be a big change coming to allow more people to race the mains. Either they need to break it into a 2 main format each evening and totally update the points system or they need to add more spots to the gate, make it a 25 rider main event.

Something has to change soon, when people like the Stewart's, Dean Wilson, etc are left with no rides....the system is starting to break.
No one is retiring to free up slots. Longevity these days is much more than it used to be. The sponsorship is not what it used to be, you need sponsors to fund teams and riders. Riders are out pointing or are forced to leave the 250 class.

If the above is what you call the 'system' then yes it needs to be fixed.

There certainly is no band aid fix.

There will always be privateers, they are mostly all pros anyway, as there is not the sponsorship for all of them to get factory rides, this has ALWAYS been the case.....

The Shop

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ga_pike
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ga_pike 12/30/2016 2:58pm
12/30/2016 2:58pm
yak651 wrote:
24 man mains but black flag anyone lapped more than once. Pay points to all finishers, if you get pulled no points
There is something good to this idea... pay points to all who take the checkered flag. Eliminate those who get lapped twice.

Another option might be multiple mains with attrition. If you get lapped in main 1, you're done for the night. Same for main 2. Anyone who starts and finishes main 3 gets points. Supplement those eliminated with a cash paying consolation race just before main 3.
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 12/30/2016 3:01pm
12/30/2016 3:01pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
30 man mains! It's time
ML512 wrote:
I wouldn't be against expanding the field a little bit. (24 or 25 is what I had in mind) With current designs (mostly start straight size)...
I wouldn't be against expanding the field a little bit. (24 or 25 is what I had in mind) With current designs (mostly start straight size) I don't know if we can go quite to 30...unless a second row start is adopted like Arenacross. Plus, I'm not sure we have 30 riders really capable enough to be out there for the main show without the last three or so being instant lappers.
Agreed!
51xc
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51xc 12/30/2016 3:49pm
12/30/2016 3:49pm
There is a possibility of having 3 different 250 champions every year. surprise, surprise not every champion (or top 3 guy) will have a 450 full time ride for all his career. expanding 450 rides isn't going to change that. there will always be guys with huge talent that won't find a ride eventually. I know it's harsh but we are talking about the best in the world and that's what should be. I'm not a professional mtb racer or my mate doesn't work at google because we didn't cut it. sucks, but that's life.
Dannyderasmo106 12/30/2016 8:56pm
12/30/2016 8:56pm
What about spliting the 450 class into 2 race groups. A group for fastest guys. B group for the privateer guys that wouldnt make the main. The B group would mostly be privateers so they get the opportunity to to have more competitive racing. Thay can run their own championship and possibly point out into the A group the next year.
kiwifan
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kiwifan 12/30/2016 8:58pm
12/30/2016 8:58pm
Dannyderasmo106 wrote:
What about spliting the 450 class into 2 race groups. A group for fastest guys. B group for the privateer guys that wouldnt make the main...
What about spliting the 450 class into 2 race groups. A group for fastest guys. B group for the privateer guys that wouldnt make the main. The B group would mostly be privateers so they get the opportunity to to have more competitive racing. Thay can run their own championship and possibly point out into the A group the next year.
A good idea except you run out of time during the night, unless you started sooner of course...
Dannyderasmo106 12/30/2016 9:23pm
12/30/2016 9:23pm Edited Date/Time 12/30/2016 9:25pm
Dannyderasmo106 wrote:
What about spliting the 450 class into 2 race groups. A group for fastest guys. B group for the privateer guys that wouldnt make the main...
What about spliting the 450 class into 2 race groups. A group for fastest guys. B group for the privateer guys that wouldnt make the main. The B group would mostly be privateers so they get the opportunity to to have more competitive racing. Thay can run their own championship and possibly point out into the A group the next year.
kiwifan wrote:
A good idea except you run out of time during the night, unless you started sooner of course...
No semis or lcqs. They can go stright to the main from qualifying. Or just an lcq for the remainders from qualifying.
colorado2day
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colorado2day 12/30/2016 11:56pm
12/30/2016 11:56pm Edited Date/Time 12/30/2016 11:59pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
30 man mains! It's time
ML512 wrote:
I wouldn't be against expanding the field a little bit. (24 or 25 is what I had in mind) With current designs (mostly start straight size)...
I wouldn't be against expanding the field a little bit. (24 or 25 is what I had in mind) With current designs (mostly start straight size) I don't know if we can go quite to 30...unless a second row start is adopted like Arenacross. Plus, I'm not sure we have 30 riders really capable enough to be out there for the main show without the last three or so being instant lappers.
There ya go. 2 row starts and adopt something like the WSBK unorthodox start rules. Heat race top 3 got to the second row in the final ! Yeah ,that'll work.
world-superbike-brings-in-unorthodox-starting-order-rules-for-2017
ML512
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ML512 12/31/2016 3:48am
12/31/2016 3:48am
colorado2day wrote:
There ya go. 2 row starts and adopt something like the WSBK unorthodox start rules. Heat race top 3 got to the second row in the...
There ya go. 2 row starts and adopt something like the WSBK unorthodox start rules. Heat race top 3 got to the second row in the final ! Yeah ,that'll work.
world-superbike-brings-in-unorthodox-starting-order-rules-for-2017
I'm sure you remember the last time Supercross tried an inverted starting order? When the guys dogged the finishes to set themselves up better for the mains.
colorado2day
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colorado2day 12/31/2016 7:32am
12/31/2016 7:32am
colorado2day wrote:
There ya go. 2 row starts and adopt something like the WSBK unorthodox start rules. Heat race top 3 got to the second row in the...
There ya go. 2 row starts and adopt something like the WSBK unorthodox start rules. Heat race top 3 got to the second row in the final ! Yeah ,that'll work.
world-superbike-brings-in-unorthodox-starting-order-rules-for-2017
ML512 wrote:
I'm sure you remember the last time Supercross tried an inverted starting order? When the guys dogged the finishes to set themselves up better for the...
I'm sure you remember the last time Supercross tried an inverted starting order? When the guys dogged the finishes to set themselves up better for the mains.
Yes, that response was in jest. But more riders in the main with the slowest in a 2nd row would not make for better racing.

We all agree starts and the 1st laps are the most intense, no ?

Take a page from outdoor and run 2 shorter motos for more action and better racing.

A scoring system has been established for years and a better 2nd moto trumps a tie score. Newbs could understand that.

20 minutes + 1 will not make for better racing throughout the pack. Shorter, more intense racing with another start would make for better racing. With more guys why not ?
colorado2day
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colorado2day 12/31/2016 7:48am
12/31/2016 7:48am
ML512 wrote:
Ehh, I think title bumping is fair at some point for Supercross. Otherwise someone might live in the class and dominate way too long. I don't...
Ehh, I think title bumping is fair at some point for Supercross. Otherwise someone might live in the class and dominate way too long. I don't like the current points bumping system or the fact that riders can't defend the title if they win it after three complete seasons. They should always be allowed to defend.

If the 250 class becomes a full-pro (never bump out) class, I'd like to see a development class even below it. Maybe a 250F class with extremely heavy restrictions and an age set? Like 16-20? I have a list of rules that would make the class quite cheap but still competitive for teams/aftermarkets to be compelled to use it. But I've brought them up before and don't feel like typing them all out tonight.
Oh yeah. Just what we wont pay to see. A 250 class with non trick 250s.

We know you have issues with 2 strokes ML512, but dont all the manufacturers but Honda make a close to 80cc 2 stroke ?

Sure kids trying to be heros would wad big time on a full on SX track, but taking a page from the support class at the Monster cup, put in a joker lane for the kids in the high speed sections. Invite kids on 105s and let them rip ?

Talk about entertaining and great practice for the future ?

If that doesnt work for an up and comer, there is always arenacross.
mmcmx
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mmcmx 12/31/2016 8:04am
12/31/2016 8:04am
The stupid rules to force guys up to the 450 class in both sides of the pond need to go.
ML512
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ML512 12/31/2016 8:09am
12/31/2016 8:09am
colorado2day wrote:
Oh yeah. Just what we wont pay to see. A 250 class with non trick 250s. We know you have issues with 2 strokes ML512, but...
Oh yeah. Just what we wont pay to see. A 250 class with non trick 250s.

We know you have issues with 2 strokes ML512, but dont all the manufacturers but Honda make a close to 80cc 2 stroke ?

Sure kids trying to be heros would wad big time on a full on SX track, but taking a page from the support class at the Monster cup, put in a joker lane for the kids in the high speed sections. Invite kids on 105s and let them rip ?

Talk about entertaining and great practice for the future ?

If that doesnt work for an up and comer, there is always arenacross.
Well all know you have issues with two-strokes? Hmm, I have a YZ125 in my garage... Maybe I torture it at night?

No, I'm just a realist of what's more likely to appear rule wise based off available equipment and manufacturer support. But please, continue to have your head buried in the sand and say I have issues with two-strokes.
ML512
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ML512 12/31/2016 8:11am
12/31/2016 8:11am
colorado2day wrote:
There ya go. 2 row starts and adopt something like the WSBK unorthodox start rules. Heat race top 3 got to the second row in the...
There ya go. 2 row starts and adopt something like the WSBK unorthodox start rules. Heat race top 3 got to the second row in the final ! Yeah ,that'll work.
world-superbike-brings-in-unorthodox-starting-order-rules-for-2017
ML512 wrote:
I'm sure you remember the last time Supercross tried an inverted starting order? When the guys dogged the finishes to set themselves up better for the...
I'm sure you remember the last time Supercross tried an inverted starting order? When the guys dogged the finishes to set themselves up better for the mains.
colorado2day wrote:
Yes, that response was in jest. But more riders in the main with the slowest in a 2nd row would not make for better racing. We...
Yes, that response was in jest. But more riders in the main with the slowest in a 2nd row would not make for better racing.

We all agree starts and the 1st laps are the most intense, no ?

Take a page from outdoor and run 2 shorter motos for more action and better racing.

A scoring system has been established for years and a better 2nd moto trumps a tie score. Newbs could understand that.

20 minutes + 1 will not make for better racing throughout the pack. Shorter, more intense racing with another start would make for better racing. With more guys why not ?
For the record, I'm not for a second row start, I just stated that would be a logical way to fit more rider's into a main based off the limitations of the start straight size.

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The Rock
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The Rock 12/31/2016 9:18am
12/31/2016 9:18am Edited Date/Time 12/31/2016 9:18am
ML512 wrote:
Ehh, I think title bumping is fair at some point for Supercross. Otherwise someone might live in the class and dominate way too long. I don't...
Ehh, I think title bumping is fair at some point for Supercross. Otherwise someone might live in the class and dominate way too long. I don't like the current points bumping system or the fact that riders can't defend the title if they win it after three complete seasons. They should always be allowed to defend.

If the 250 class becomes a full-pro (never bump out) class, I'd like to see a development class even below it. Maybe a 250F class with extremely heavy restrictions and an age set? Like 16-20? I have a list of rules that would make the class quite cheap but still competitive for teams/aftermarkets to be compelled to use it. But I've brought them up before and don't feel like typing them all out tonight.
I'd like to see a development class even below it. Maybe a 250F class with extremely heavy restrictions and an age set? Like 16-20? I have a list of rules that would make the class quite cheap but still competitive for teams/aftermarkets to be compelled to use it.

I agree one thousand percent Michael. It only makes sense to have an "entry" class that you don't need a high dollar scooter for. Makes zero sense that the 250 class is more expensive to compete in than the 450 but the 250 class is supposed to be the "stepping stone" class.
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kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 12/31/2016 10:15am
12/31/2016 10:15am
The 250 class should be a 200 class. There would be a big difference and guys would definitely move up.

The 2 stroke 125 to 250 was a big difference.

In my book there should be something on the track the smaller bike can't do (other than that one crazy guy and the crowd goes wild) and we don't really see that now.
snackfedbear
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snackfedbear 12/31/2016 12:28pm
12/31/2016 12:28pm Edited Date/Time 12/31/2016 1:27pm


An additional Suppourt class could be possible, but there would have to be an exchange somewhere.

I'm thinking we take out the track maintenance before the 250LCQ + 450 Semis block and exchanged that time for the Support Class heats (5min + 1lap)...

Take the Semis out completely...

1-7 in heats, top 6 in LCQs qualify

Then take that intermission time and swap it out for the NEEDED track maintenance time...

Put that right before the mains...

No more KTM Jr. Challenges... sorry tykes.

Put the Support Main (10min + 1lap) in before the 250 Main....

Make the LCQs an actual last shot and have them right before each site lap for the main event....
(the riders who have to race them would be fired up and have their heart rates going for the main)

Then BOOM. there's your extra class.

[additional thoughts]

250SX class needs to be full season + no pointing out

Support/Stock Class should be:
250F.
Regional, East/West
Pointed/Champed out.
Limited Bike mods. Frame and motor straight from OEM.
Can have any bolt ons like exhaust and mapping/ whatever other chassis stuff.
(Would push the OEM/ exhaust companies/ bolt on companies to be innovative I'm thinking)

20 rider main events (to make the dash more competitive), Points for each finisher.
Hype up the starts more... as if they don't already

Just some ideas....


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TeamGreen 12/28/2019 12:14pm
12/28/2019 12:14pm
Good point: what's your list of the 22 riders in the main look like for next week?
How many Factory Bikes/Factory Supported bikes are you counting (factory level hardware)?
1down5up
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1down5up 12/28/2019 12:29pm
12/28/2019 12:29pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Red Bull KTM: 3 Rckt Mt. KTM: 2 Rstar Husky: 2 HRC-Honda: 2 Monster/KMC: 2 Suzuki/RCH: 2 JGR/Suzuki: 2 Monster/YMC: 2 That's 17! And those Honda's...
Red Bull KTM: 3
Rckt Mt. KTM: 2
Rstar Husky: 2
HRC-Honda: 2
Monster/KMC: 2
Suzuki/RCH: 2
JGR/Suzuki: 2
Monster/YMC: 2

That's 17!

And those Honda's at MCR could go on that list...then there's Hahn's YZF...that's 4 more bikes!

So, 17 factory bikes! Where's this so-called dry spell or the "not enough factory rides" problem?
When did we have more solid rides in this class? (post 2008 economic-melt-down).

Edit: I think Matthes's rants about Davalos got to me and I was listing -3- Factory Husky 450s...which...after SX...you never know...
https://vault.racerxonline.com/1982-01-30/250sx/anaheim-stadium
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/28/2019 12:31pm
12/28/2019 12:31pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Red Bull KTM: 3 Rckt Mt. KTM: 2 Rstar Husky: 2 HRC-Honda: 2 Monster/KMC: 2 Suzuki/RCH: 2 JGR/Suzuki: 2 Monster/YMC: 2 That's 17! And those Honda's...
Red Bull KTM: 3
Rckt Mt. KTM: 2
Rstar Husky: 2
HRC-Honda: 2
Monster/KMC: 2
Suzuki/RCH: 2
JGR/Suzuki: 2
Monster/YMC: 2

That's 17!

And those Honda's at MCR could go on that list...then there's Hahn's YZF...that's 4 more bikes!

So, 17 factory bikes! Where's this so-called dry spell or the "not enough factory rides" problem?
When did we have more solid rides in this class? (post 2008 economic-melt-down).

Edit: I think Matthes's rants about Davalos got to me and I was listing -3- Factory Husky 450s...which...after SX...you never know...
1down5up wrote:
https://vault.racerxonline.com/1982-01-30/250sx/anaheim-stadium
Reaching even farther back...

Nice
1
mx_phreek 12/28/2019 1:26pm
12/28/2019 1:26pm
Rockstar husky is wrong, 3 bikes not two. Anderson, Zacho and Deano
Jeff_Crutcher 12/28/2019 1:58pm
12/28/2019 1:58pm
mx_phreek wrote:
Rockstar husky is wrong, 3 bikes not two. Anderson, Zacho and Deano
This is a years old thread.
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