Sacha Baron Cohen vs Social Media Companies,

Edited Date/Time 11/22/2019 8:04pm
interesting speech here, basically calling google, facebook twitter youtube etc the worlds biggest publishers and they should be responsible for censoring what is posted on their site,

i'm not sure where i sit on this, yes bad ideas and misinformation are getting spread easier than ever before, but free speech is still a very important issue, because who decides who what is bad and misinformed?

|
Deja New
Posts
2784
Joined
11/22/2016
Location
AU
11/22/2019 8:13pm Edited Date/Time 11/22/2019 8:14pm
Misinformation lol he would know
Start the engine pass it on.....

Bitch on a pension suck my dong
2
1
jeffro503
Posts
27645
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
11/22/2019 9:45pm
Here in the states , this is coming to a head. Companies either need to be a " platform or a publisher ". One or the other. Companies like Facebook , YouTube , Twitter , ect.........have to make up their minds , and they have been dipping into both ends.

Too tired to look everything up right now , but I believe it's a bill on section 230. You can't claim to be be an open platform , and then " ban / edit " other people's opinions. If you do ??......then you are considered something else , and responsible for what people post on your platform. You can't claim to be an open platform , if you decide to start silencing people. In that case , you are just a publisher.

Soo....

A.).......Monitor your site and delete everything you disagree with / may get you in trouble.
Or
B.) ......Let it be an open platform , do not delete / silence anyone's opinions , and you won't be held responsible.


Like I said , companies like Facebook , YouTube , Twitter ect , will be sued into oblivion unless they choose what side of the fence they sit on. For them , there is only one answer , and that it's impossible to monitor every single reply.....to everything. So either let people say what they want to say , or get your ass sued in court. And yes , they will lose.
5
jeffro503
Posts
27645
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
11/22/2019 10:46pm
Not sure if this link will work , but it is what I was trying to bring up. This won't affect just big website / social media type outlets...... it'll affect every website out there. Basically decide what you want to be , you can't be both.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/platform-or-publisher-15888.html
Deja New
Posts
2784
Joined
11/22/2016
Location
AU
11/23/2019 12:08am
jeffro503 wrote:
Here in the states , this is coming to a head. Companies either need to be a " platform or a publisher ". One or the...
Here in the states , this is coming to a head. Companies either need to be a " platform or a publisher ". One or the other. Companies like Facebook , YouTube , Twitter , ect.........have to make up their minds , and they have been dipping into both ends.

Too tired to look everything up right now , but I believe it's a bill on section 230. You can't claim to be be an open platform , and then " ban / edit " other people's opinions. If you do ??......then you are considered something else , and responsible for what people post on your platform. You can't claim to be an open platform , if you decide to start silencing people. In that case , you are just a publisher.

Soo....

A.).......Monitor your site and delete everything you disagree with / may get you in trouble.
Or
B.) ......Let it be an open platform , do not delete / silence anyone's opinions , and you won't be held responsible.


Like I said , companies like Facebook , YouTube , Twitter ect , will be sued into oblivion unless they choose what side of the fence they sit on. For them , there is only one answer , and that it's impossible to monitor every single reply.....to everything. So either let people say what they want to say , or get your ass sued in court. And yes , they will lose.
What’s this forum? It’s a very hard one looking at it like that... nice insights
1

The Shop

jeffro503
Posts
27645
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
11/23/2019 2:00am
jeffro503 wrote:
Here in the states , this is coming to a head. Companies either need to be a " platform or a publisher ". One or the...
Here in the states , this is coming to a head. Companies either need to be a " platform or a publisher ". One or the other. Companies like Facebook , YouTube , Twitter , ect.........have to make up their minds , and they have been dipping into both ends.

Too tired to look everything up right now , but I believe it's a bill on section 230. You can't claim to be be an open platform , and then " ban / edit " other people's opinions. If you do ??......then you are considered something else , and responsible for what people post on your platform. You can't claim to be an open platform , if you decide to start silencing people. In that case , you are just a publisher.

Soo....

A.).......Monitor your site and delete everything you disagree with / may get you in trouble.
Or
B.) ......Let it be an open platform , do not delete / silence anyone's opinions , and you won't be held responsible.


Like I said , companies like Facebook , YouTube , Twitter ect , will be sued into oblivion unless they choose what side of the fence they sit on. For them , there is only one answer , and that it's impossible to monitor every single reply.....to everything. So either let people say what they want to say , or get your ass sued in court. And yes , they will lose.
Deja New wrote:
What’s this forum? It’s a very hard one looking at it like that... nice insights
I think the bill is more focused on news sites. Like when a reporter types up some bullshit article , unless they have proof of what they say , they have to label it an " opinion piece ". From what I've read , and the little bit that I understand , it's more geared towards the news sites. But.....it gets tricky , even for privately owned sites that label themselves as an open platform.

Facebook has been going through a lot of shit through the courts , and YouTube just got sued for 140 million , and lost. It all boils down to free speech. It will trickle down to " open forum / discussion " websites in the future , that don't have anything to do with politics. Which is exactly what this place is. So who knows. Again , I'm no expert , just trying to explain what I've seen / heard on the subject.
2
500guy
Posts
12469
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
USA
11/23/2019 5:39am Edited Date/Time 11/23/2019 5:40am
I would be more worried about the information gathering and spying those sites do.

Censoring the content can lead to a massive manipulation of information.
3
Brad460
Posts
4513
Joined
5/15/2012
Location
Richfield, WI, USA
Fantasy
11/23/2019 6:20am
Let’s be honest here- what they really want censored are conservative voices...and the left will decide. Not much different than today’s main stream media...
7
4
borg
Posts
6963
Joined
12/7/2009
Location
Long Beach, CA, USA
11/23/2019 7:38am
jeffro503 wrote:
Not sure if this link will work , but it is what I was trying to bring up. This won't affect just big website / social...
Not sure if this link will work , but it is what I was trying to bring up. This won't affect just big website / social media type outlets...... it'll affect every website out there. Basically decide what you want to be , you can't be both.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/platform-or-publisher-15888.html
Even though much of what the author says makes sense, it's by no means a silver bullet. Even if you just strictly apply the law, it's still a bit murky. Just read about unprotected speech established by the Supreme Court. This gives lots of wiggle room for a forum to censor even if you suggest that you are an open forum. Criminal action would be rare but civil action is wide open when you engage in commerce. A judge recently allowed a lawsuit to proceed by the parents of children killed at Sandy Hook. They are suing Remington for making the rifle used by the killer. So, internet sites are facing civil action by the government for unfairly regulating hate speech. They are also sued by public entities for allowing and disallowing hate speech. Hate speech easily qualifies for the "fighting words" exemption as defined by SCOTUS. By exemption I mean that the speech no is longer protected by the 1rst amendment.

Most of the noise here revolves around political speech. Even with Cohen's objections it always devolves back to politics because of the loose definition of hate speech. GuyB has fairly attempted to stay clear from the fray by prohibiting politics altogether. That in itself brings some grief to him by those that think it's unfairly applied but my guess is that those complaints are worth it. Banning politics would kill Twitter. Not sure about Facebook or Youtube.
borg
Posts
6963
Joined
12/7/2009
Location
Long Beach, CA, USA
11/23/2019 8:49am
Just watched the Cohen speech. What a load. He's much closer to KGB than he is the ACLU. He wants to put Zuckerberg in jail if he doesn't patrol his site to Cohen's liking.
Ebs
Posts
847
Joined
6/1/2014
Location
USA
11/23/2019 9:56am
Google, Youtube, Facebook, etc are all private entities. They should be able to operate however they want.
borg
Posts
6963
Joined
12/7/2009
Location
Long Beach, CA, USA
11/23/2019 10:07am
Of course they deny being biased but so does MSNBC and Fox. I'm not sure what you do about it though. I have to read up on 230 a bit more. The whole situation has pitfalls and cross purposes when it comes to a solution or even an improvement.
11/23/2019 10:19am
Brad460 wrote:
Let’s be honest here- what they really want censored are conservative voices...and the left will decide. Not much different than today’s main stream media...
guys like Tim Pool have already shown that they are censoring right wing views already, I would think you would at least expect an even playing field,
11/23/2019 10:24am
Ebs wrote:
Google, Youtube, Facebook, etc are all private entities. They should be able to operate however they want.
do you feel the same about the TV companies? or the news paper companies? should they be held to any standard? or be above being sued for publishing outside sources content?
jeffro503
Posts
27645
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
11/23/2019 11:18am
Ebs wrote:
Google, Youtube, Facebook, etc are all private entities. They should be able to operate however they want.
Doesn't quite work like that. Hence why the 230 bill is being reviewed. It's been around since 1996 , but those big companies haven't been playing by the rules. They can run themselves right out of business. Either be an open platform or a publisher. I honestly hope they get the shit sued out of them. Play by the rules or get sued into Oblivion.
2
11/23/2019 11:54am
It always amazes me that people think any of the social media sites SHOULD allow complete freedom of speech. They are private ‘companies’ that are entitled to censor their platform as they see fit/as they wish, the real issue is that they try to put out the illusion that theyDO offer freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech is an illusion in any of the developed world anyway, it simply wouldn’t work.
Ebs
Posts
847
Joined
6/1/2014
Location
USA
11/23/2019 11:54am Edited Date/Time 11/23/2019 11:55am
Ebs wrote:
Google, Youtube, Facebook, etc are all private entities. They should be able to operate however they want.
scott_nz wrote:
do you feel the same about the TV companies? or the news paper companies? should they be held to any standard? or be above being sued...
do you feel the same about the TV companies? or the news paper companies? should they be held to any standard? or be above being sued for publishing outside sources content?
Any journalist or news outlet that is serious about their business is going to be pretty vigilant about maintaining their credibility. As soon as that credibility comes into question people start looking toward other reputable outlets to get their news from. It's how the free market works.


What I'm trying to say is Vital MX is where you should come for moto news.
Deja New
Posts
2784
Joined
11/22/2016
Location
AU
11/23/2019 1:30pm
Ebs wrote:
Google, Youtube, Facebook, etc are all private entities. They should be able to operate however they want.
jeffro503 wrote:
Doesn't quite work like that. Hence why the 230 bill is being reviewed. It's been around since 1996 , but those big companies haven't been playing...
Doesn't quite work like that. Hence why the 230 bill is being reviewed. It's been around since 1996 , but those big companies haven't been playing by the rules. They can run themselves right out of business. Either be an open platform or a publisher. I honestly hope they get the shit sued out of them. Play by the rules or get sued into Oblivion.
Problem is these guys have some serious cash flow to fight legal battles. I totally agree with what you say but in the real world I don’t think they will get sued to much.
1
jeffro503
Posts
27645
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
11/23/2019 3:06pm
Ebs wrote:
Google, Youtube, Facebook, etc are all private entities. They should be able to operate however they want.
jeffro503 wrote:
Doesn't quite work like that. Hence why the 230 bill is being reviewed. It's been around since 1996 , but those big companies haven't been playing...
Doesn't quite work like that. Hence why the 230 bill is being reviewed. It's been around since 1996 , but those big companies haven't been playing by the rules. They can run themselves right out of business. Either be an open platform or a publisher. I honestly hope they get the shit sued out of them. Play by the rules or get sued into Oblivion.
Deja New wrote:
Problem is these guys have some serious cash flow to fight legal battles. I totally agree with what you say but in the real world I...
Problem is these guys have some serious cash flow to fight legal battles. I totally agree with what you say but in the real world I don’t think they will get sued to much.
Well , we will wait and see. This battle is happening on many fronts as we speak. Last week it was YouTube for 170 million. This week it's a case of slander from the Covington case against NBC for 250 million. What I mean by different fronts , is that it isn't just about silencing people , it's about strait up lying and defamation , hit pieces , and censorship. It's all tied to big media , and their way of trying to silence people by breaking the rules. Fact : You can't claim to be an open platform , when you have people working for you , that will ban members because their opinions don't match your own. Or your political views don't match your own. You dip into politics , you had better be just a publisher.....OR an open platform. You can't be both. Only so many times that Youtube will be sued for a 170 million , before they change their ways , or shut down.
1
Deja New
Posts
2784
Joined
11/22/2016
Location
AU
11/23/2019 3:46pm
But the lines could get crossed so easy on an open platform have users straight out posting illegal material no? Can you then not change it or ban it? Then be sued by the user for changing it or sued by the government for leaving it... not being an arse just trying to get my head around where it leaves them. Your points make to much sense I just fear it’s a very grey area.
How would you see a solution for this? Can you put it in the posting guid lines and still be open? Or is that already publishing and controlling?
jeffro503
Posts
27645
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
11/23/2019 4:38pm
Bottom line.....it's a fight for the 1st amendment here in the states , and where that line should be drawn. It all starts there , but then becomes corrupt the further you dig into it. And it all flows back to money , greed and power. It isn't a " Right or Left " thing. They all want it!
2
Ebs
Posts
847
Joined
6/1/2014
Location
USA
11/24/2019 4:37pm Edited Date/Time 11/24/2019 4:39pm
The First Amendment applies to government censorship. When you are on Google, Facebook, Youtube, etc you are entering a private establishment, you have no right to be there if they don't want you to be. So I don't follow the freedom of speech argument.

If I kick you out of my house because you start talking crazy political stuff and are ruining the party, I didn't trample on your First Amendment rights. If anything and above all, I exercised my private property rights.

Now think, instead of being in my house, you are on my website.

2
jeffro503
Posts
27645
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
11/24/2019 7:26pm
If they are ‘Platforms’ then, by definition, they are companies that enable content and distribution of information. This would be similar to the phone company. If social networks are a platform, then they are not responsible for the material that is posted on their networks. You can’t sue them for defamation if someone publishes libelous content. They just provide the platform, not the message.

If on the other hand, they are not just platforms, if they are ‘Publishers,’ then the situation changes. (by definition, a publisher is someone who curates and distributes content, like a newspaper.) A publisher has full legal responsibility for the material that is posted.

Currently, these companies are defining themselves as online platforms which people can use to come together and share ideas. This sounds to me like they are ‘platforms’ (it’s right there in the definition). This means that they can’t be held accountable for the content published on their sites. This also means that they are NOT publishers and therefore should NOT be curating content.

This is how the law is written. Those big social media site haves been getting away with it for years , and now , someone finally said " Enough! ". If you own a site / social media / news outlet.........you either claim responsibility for everything and monitor / correct / edit things.......OR ....you use it as an open platform and have discussions / debates / civil discourse ( Up to a point ) and NOT be responsible.

And NO......you can't do it your own way , dip in from both sides ,and claim you're something else. Well , you can , but you'll get sued right out of business.
haydos25
Posts
1688
Joined
8/4/2010
Location
Sydney, AU
11/24/2019 8:10pm
jeffro503 wrote:
If they are ‘Platforms’ then, by definition, they are companies that enable content and distribution of information. This would be similar to the phone company. If...
If they are ‘Platforms’ then, by definition, they are companies that enable content and distribution of information. This would be similar to the phone company. If social networks are a platform, then they are not responsible for the material that is posted on their networks. You can’t sue them for defamation if someone publishes libelous content. They just provide the platform, not the message.

If on the other hand, they are not just platforms, if they are ‘Publishers,’ then the situation changes. (by definition, a publisher is someone who curates and distributes content, like a newspaper.) A publisher has full legal responsibility for the material that is posted.

Currently, these companies are defining themselves as online platforms which people can use to come together and share ideas. This sounds to me like they are ‘platforms’ (it’s right there in the definition). This means that they can’t be held accountable for the content published on their sites. This also means that they are NOT publishers and therefore should NOT be curating content.

This is how the law is written. Those big social media site haves been getting away with it for years , and now , someone finally said " Enough! ". If you own a site / social media / news outlet.........you either claim responsibility for everything and monitor / correct / edit things.......OR ....you use it as an open platform and have discussions / debates / civil discourse ( Up to a point ) and NOT be responsible.

And NO......you can't do it your own way , dip in from both sides ,and claim you're something else. Well , you can , but you'll get sued right out of business.
I think you hit the nail on the head in your second last paragraph. "up to a point".

Who decides that point? Is it the owner of the platform? The government? The participants? Who?

I like Ebs house analogy. You own the house and who you let in, which means you can kick them out whenever you like. But if a riot kicks off in there that doesn't necessarily mean the finger should be pointed at the owner of the house.

The biggest problem with social media is the anonymity, that comes with it. John Smith isnt going to tee off on everyone if he knows his boss, his in laws and his nan are watching. But Asskicker69er is gonna come out swinging everytime with no repercussions. Thats not facebook or twitters fault
2
GuyB
Posts
35722
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
11/24/2019 9:06pm
Hmm...well, there's what we post here as news on the editorial side, and then there's the forum.

If we had to fact check/monitor/correct/edit everything that was posted on the forum side, there wouldn't be time to post anything on the edit side. There'd also be about a third as many posts left. Wink

The portion that I think is bad on the social media side is so much stuff gets presented as fact that wouldn't have passed the sniff test in the old days. I think people are a lot more gullible/suggestable than they used to be.
1
jeffro503
Posts
27645
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
11/24/2019 9:33pm
GuyB wrote:
Hmm...well, there's what we post here as news on the editorial side, and then there's the forum. If we had to fact check/monitor/correct/edit everything that was...
Hmm...well, there's what we post here as news on the editorial side, and then there's the forum.

If we had to fact check/monitor/correct/edit everything that was posted on the forum side, there wouldn't be time to post anything on the edit side. There'd also be about a third as many posts left. Wink

The portion that I think is bad on the social media side is so much stuff gets presented as fact that wouldn't have passed the sniff test in the old days. I think people are a lot more gullible/suggestable than they used to be.
That's true for sure Steve. I think it's impossible to police everyone and everything. There are so many different variables that shapes a persons belief's ( on basically everything ) , and there will always be debates , on every subject......ever.

It's not the debate which matters though........it's the power of those social sites , that seem to shut down those debates and certain groups of people and their opinions. The debates and civil discourse is what makes us " Think "........and we either change that person's mind , or maybe put a thought in their head , or just strait get told to screw off. In my mind , this is what drives all of us to be better. When you shut out certain groups / belief's , it undermines the entire system.

I think I've only actually understood about 1% of what this whole bill 230 actually is. But I find it fascinating , because of what it actually means. Everything is digital now days........and this can / will shape how we all speak with one another in the future.
jeffro503
Posts
27645
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
11/24/2019 9:59pm
haydos25 wrote:
I think you hit the nail on the head in your second last paragraph. "up to a point". Who decides that point? Is it the owner...
I think you hit the nail on the head in your second last paragraph. "up to a point".

Who decides that point? Is it the owner of the platform? The government? The participants? Who?

I like Ebs house analogy. You own the house and who you let in, which means you can kick them out whenever you like. But if a riot kicks off in there that doesn't necessarily mean the finger should be pointed at the owner of the house.

The biggest problem with social media is the anonymity, that comes with it. John Smith isnt going to tee off on everyone if he knows his boss, his in laws and his nan are watching. But Asskicker69er is gonna come out swinging everytime with no repercussions. Thats not facebook or twitters fault
On your subject , you are right....it's not the fault of the home owner that shit went sideways. BUT......in a real case scenario , he is at fault. 1.) It happened on his property and could be liable 2.) He knew damn well it " could " happen......but he threw the party anyways.

Like I said a few replies ago , as a whole , we will never have a hard , written in the sand line. I mean an actual line! There are probably a million different lines that could be drawn.......so what do you do? My opinion , you get rid of every single line , unless it actually causes someone else actual " Physical harm ". NOT verbally.......Physically! That is the only way to police it , with a hard , drawn out line , and when it gets crossed , you deal with it.

What happens in the real world , should be applied to media. In real life , someone verbally assaults you , you don't have the right to beat the shit out of them. "Physically "....yes , you do / can. Verbally , no you can't. In real life , you can walk away. On message board / social media site......just don't reply. " The words " Hate speech " , and that person's understanding of it ( which everyone is different )....is just that , speech / words.

In short......anything you read online is not considered a threat , unless someone follows through with it. " Hate speech " is all in the eye's of the beholder.

Again , I find it interesting on where all this leads. Because it will truly shape the way we all speak to one another. It might not be tomorrow , next week or next year , but sooner or later , that line will be drawn. Many fronts , many wars.
Sully
Posts
9475
Joined
8/24/2006
Location
JP
11/24/2019 10:47pm
I wonder how Borat is going to feel if [insert his social media platform of choice] decides that his content is objectionable and decides to nuke his account/s?
Barrett57
Posts
2270
Joined
8/31/2010
Location
GB
11/25/2019 2:33am
Or we could put an emphasis on critical thinking and equipping children with the tools to deal with what they will come across on the Internet and life in general. Critical thinking is like riding a Motocross bike, you need practice to be any good at it.

I genuinely don't believe that banning opinions we don't like is a long term fix to ridiculous shit like holocaust denial and political extremism on the right or left.
5
GuyB
Posts
35722
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
11/25/2019 11:24am
Barrett57 wrote:
Or we could put an emphasis on critical thinking and equipping children with the tools to deal with what they will come across on the Internet...
Or we could put an emphasis on critical thinking and equipping children with the tools to deal with what they will come across on the Internet and life in general. Critical thinking is like riding a Motocross bike, you need practice to be any good at it.

I genuinely don't believe that banning opinions we don't like is a long term fix to ridiculous shit like holocaust denial and political extremism on the right or left.
I also don't believe in leaving them laying around like turds that we're trying to ignore as we're trying to navigate through the world. The place eventually gets stunk up, or someone accidentally steps in something they shouldn't. Wink
Sunhouse
Posts
3670
Joined
3/2/2009
Location
NO
11/25/2019 9:17pm
Deja New wrote:
Misinformation lol he would know
Start the engine pass it on.....

Bitch on a pension suck my dong
This post is highly underrated, best scene in the movie Grinning
2

Post a reply to: Sacha Baron Cohen vs Social Media Companies,

The Latest