skill/talent - nature OR nurture

Cortami79
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4/18/2017 11:38pm
Flip109 wrote:
Back in the 90's you could get away with a lot of talent and little bit of work. But now you better have shit tons of...
Back in the 90's you could get away with a lot of talent and little bit of work. But now you better have shit tons of both. The level of riding in the last 5-10 years has gone really high. You can no longer be talented and cut it. Hell look at herlings. Oozing with talent. Little injury that causes him a few weeks off the bike and he's fighting with guys that he would normally use for a berm. SHits cray these days on both sides of the pond. And people who think Carmichael wasn't as talented as say Pastrana. I just don't agree. He was a fat little Kid on a 85 whooping everyone else in his age group brackets ass in the world. Throwing fuckin whips over the step up at gatorback back In the day on an 85 all fat and shit! That wasn't from his super clean diet training regimen. He looked like he just got out of fuckin jollypirate donuts and hopped on his bike to go race. Pastrana was all balls. Doing flips and tricks. Yeah he's talented as hell. But Carmichael was Just as talented on a bike as a kid. One was just tall and skinny and crazy as a wombat, and the other was short fat and determined as fuck to kick everyone's asses. No flips. No tricks. Just W's.
This. Obviously every rider in the GP's and in the AMA series is talented. Some are just more naturally gifted and some need it from hard work. If I'm watching a grand prix for a weekend, i always love to see the time practice. At that point you REALLY see who is naturally gifted. For example, I have seen Arnaud Tonus doing things and finding lines that no one could ever find. That guy has so much technique and is always able to see things other riders don't see, I could watch that for days. I love to see riders doing things that other riders can't (or don't even think about) and make it look easy. That is why I always love to see riders like Tonus, Prado, Pourcel and Steve Ramon (he is at my hometown track often and still is fast as hell). Do you guys remember Unadilla in 2009 or something? Where pourcel found lines no one could ever come up with? I believe Bagget said that he always studied those races to analyse what Pourcel did.

But you can say what you want, even those guys have/had to work their ass of to get some results and championships
Flip109
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4/19/2017 4:38am
Cortami79 wrote:
This. Obviously every rider in the GP's and in the AMA series is talented. Some are just more naturally gifted and some need it from hard...
This. Obviously every rider in the GP's and in the AMA series is talented. Some are just more naturally gifted and some need it from hard work. If I'm watching a grand prix for a weekend, i always love to see the time practice. At that point you REALLY see who is naturally gifted. For example, I have seen Arnaud Tonus doing things and finding lines that no one could ever find. That guy has so much technique and is always able to see things other riders don't see, I could watch that for days. I love to see riders doing things that other riders can't (or don't even think about) and make it look easy. That is why I always love to see riders like Tonus, Prado, Pourcel and Steve Ramon (he is at my hometown track often and still is fast as hell). Do you guys remember Unadilla in 2009 or something? Where pourcel found lines no one could ever come up with? I believe Bagget said that he always studied those races to analyse what Pourcel did.

But you can say what you want, even those guys have/had to work their ass of to get some results and championships
If not for Pourcel hurting himself so bad that one time. The sky was the limit for him. Arguably one of the most naturally talented guys ever.
Swann
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4/19/2017 7:07am Edited Date/Time 4/19/2017 7:09am
Some people are just more athletic than others. Athleticism being balance, coordination, quick muscle memory, strength, etc... ever notice how some people are just good at everything they do? Those people are highly athletic, which means they would likely be good at anything they do physically speaking. Some marginally athletic people can learn over time to improve balance and coordination but most are just inherently crappy athletes and don't have the genetic makeup for athletic ability.

However, there is a huge difference between a highly athletic person and a highly emotionally intelligent and athletic person. The latter are usually the people that go on to have stellar careers and accomplish great things. Talent can take people a long way until they are faced with people of equal talent. That's when emotional intelligence plays a considerable role in whether that talent actually succeeds.

I can point out half a dozen pro motocross guys who are extraordinarily talented but very clearly a bit weak in the head game.
davistld01
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4/19/2017 7:40am Edited Date/Time 4/19/2017 7:42am
Winners are born. Champions are made.

In my opinion, someone with natural talent out the wazoo can win some races when things are just right...but they may not have what it takes to endure the pain & maintain a points lead in order to be a champion. Look at Kevin Windham. Truckloads of natural talent. Won lots of races. Never a champion...at least not in the premier class. I don't think Ricky Carmichael or Jeff Stanton either one were loaded with natural talent. But they worked their absolute asses off to overcome that & to become champions.

The Shop

Micahdogg
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4/19/2017 7:57am
Some people get it more than others. I was on a 9-ball league and a friend of mine picked up a cue and in 2 years is better than I will ever be. I've been playing most of my life, but he just has that natural inclination. I can ride a dirtbike better than him though.

It really shouldn't be a newsflash that we all have gifts in different areas, but its really that simple. That's why there are great welders, fabricators, engine builders, etc.... and then the rest of us mere mortals who are just ok.

That's why its important to try new stuff. You never know what you'll be great at until you try. Case in point, I'm going to try tinting the windows in my car this weekend. It may be a waste of my time/money, then again, maybe I'll surprise myself!
4/19/2017 8:03am
I think theres riders with just natural talent. JS7 probably the most natural talent. JLaw a lot of natural talent.
doofy
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4/19/2017 10:08am
Cortami79 wrote:
This. Obviously every rider in the GP's and in the AMA series is talented. Some are just more naturally gifted and some need it from hard...
This. Obviously every rider in the GP's and in the AMA series is talented. Some are just more naturally gifted and some need it from hard work. If I'm watching a grand prix for a weekend, i always love to see the time practice. At that point you REALLY see who is naturally gifted. For example, I have seen Arnaud Tonus doing things and finding lines that no one could ever find. That guy has so much technique and is always able to see things other riders don't see, I could watch that for days. I love to see riders doing things that other riders can't (or don't even think about) and make it look easy. That is why I always love to see riders like Tonus, Prado, Pourcel and Steve Ramon (he is at my hometown track often and still is fast as hell). Do you guys remember Unadilla in 2009 or something? Where pourcel found lines no one could ever come up with? I believe Bagget said that he always studied those races to analyse what Pourcel did.

But you can say what you want, even those guys have/had to work their ass of to get some results and championships
Flip109 wrote:
If not for Pourcel hurting himself so bad that one time. The sky was the limit for him. Arguably one of the most naturally talented guys...
If not for Pourcel hurting himself so bad that one time. The sky was the limit for him. Arguably one of the most naturally talented guys ever.
I agree 100%. You can watch pourcel in timed qualifying at a sx and think damn he's just cruising around.... then see he just laid down the fastest lap. I think hes the Everts of this generation. It made me laugh too when they were talking about how he constantly requested for his bike to be detuned at rockstar husky.
Funyun
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4/19/2017 10:29am Edited Date/Time 4/19/2017 10:34am
JAC wrote:
This is from "The Myth Of Natural Ability In Elite Sport" by Dr. Justin Coulson. "Of course the myth of natural ability is a handy cop-out...
This is from "The Myth Of Natural Ability In Elite Sport" by Dr. Justin Coulson.

"Of course the myth of natural ability is a handy cop-out for people not doing so well in their given sport. If I’m not naturally gifted, then my poor performance is not “my” fault. It’s genetics conspiring against me. Researchers have absolutely decimated that myth. There’s no such thing as naturals. There are simply those who train their bodies and minds longer, more precisely, more deliberately, and harder than everyone else."

I think if you give a privateer Reed's bike, the privateer will be a little better. If you give Reed the privateer's bike, Reed will be a lot worse.








I wonder what "researchers" have decimated that myth he is talking about. To say that some people are born with a higher capability to become an elite athlete is certainly not a myth.
Flip109
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4/19/2017 10:56am
Micahdogg wrote:
Some people get it more than others. I was on a 9-ball league and a friend of mine picked up a cue and in 2 years...
Some people get it more than others. I was on a 9-ball league and a friend of mine picked up a cue and in 2 years is better than I will ever be. I've been playing most of my life, but he just has that natural inclination. I can ride a dirtbike better than him though.

It really shouldn't be a newsflash that we all have gifts in different areas, but its really that simple. That's why there are great welders, fabricators, engine builders, etc.... and then the rest of us mere mortals who are just ok.

That's why its important to try new stuff. You never know what you'll be great at until you try. Case in point, I'm going to try tinting the windows in my car this weekend. It may be a waste of my time/money, then again, maybe I'll surprise myself!
Bro if you good. I got some business for you Laughing
tickleme20
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4/19/2017 12:31pm
hvaughn88 wrote:
I'm no psychologist, so forgive me if this sounds ridiculous, but I've always kinda figured that's why moto seems to have such a fine line of...
I'm no psychologist, so forgive me if this sounds ridiculous, but I've always kinda figured that's why moto seems to have such a fine line of super fast guys that end up screwing up in life. It's almost like that lack of thinking that can cause you to be fast can also cause you to make some pretty poor life decisions away from the track, too.

Might not be accurate, just a thought.
mjr119 wrote:
You aren't alone. I have often wondered about this. My buddy and I used to joke around and say that we were too "smart" to go...
You aren't alone. I have often wondered about this.

My buddy and I used to joke around and say that we were too "smart" to go that fast. I think there is definitely a correlation in some way. Just not sure exactly how or why.
I'm no authority on any of this, but it rings true, and not just for athletes. Like there's this valve to raw, uninhibited talent/inspiration that gets choked off the more you overthink whatever it is you're doing. That's why I think, for example, that a lot of bands' first few albums tend to be their finest: they're not overthinking "what this SHOULD sound like" - it just IS. Everything just flows.

And I really do think that's an issue for Dungey. I think he's definitely able to "go with the flow" when he's not loaded down mentally. But he's an overthinker, and the more he stews in his anxieties, the less able he is to "get into the zone."
JAC
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4/19/2017 12:39pm
JAC wrote:
This is from "The Myth Of Natural Ability In Elite Sport" by Dr. Justin Coulson. "Of course the myth of natural ability is a handy cop-out...
This is from "The Myth Of Natural Ability In Elite Sport" by Dr. Justin Coulson.

"Of course the myth of natural ability is a handy cop-out for people not doing so well in their given sport. If I’m not naturally gifted, then my poor performance is not “my” fault. It’s genetics conspiring against me. Researchers have absolutely decimated that myth. There’s no such thing as naturals. There are simply those who train their bodies and minds longer, more precisely, more deliberately, and harder than everyone else."

I think if you give a privateer Reed's bike, the privateer will be a little better. If you give Reed the privateer's bike, Reed will be a lot worse.








Funyun wrote:
I wonder what "researchers" have decimated that myth he is talking about. To say that some people are born with a higher capability to become an...
I wonder what "researchers" have decimated that myth he is talking about. To say that some people are born with a higher capability to become an elite athlete is certainly not a myth.
How do you measure someone's "higher capability" to be better at something? There is no empirical evidence for humans being "naturally gifted" to do anything. I think his point, like many others, is there are a variety of variables that contribute to someone being a high achieving athlete, business person, etc.

Motorcycles were invented in 1885. Based on the current data, humans in our current form have been on Earth about 200,000 years. Where exactly during those 200,000 years did we evolve the "natural ability" to ride a dirt bike better than our fellow humans? I prefer the Doctor's explanation....."There are simply those who train their bodies and minds longer, more precisely, more deliberately, and harder than everyone else."
Casting
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4/19/2017 2:11pm
Psychologist here, I may be able to provide a bit of information to help understand how nature versus nurture (talent vs work) plays out.

Everyone is born with an inherited set of genes that provide a general shape for how their brain is going to work. Each person is slightly different, but the generally accepted theory is that 50% of a child's ability in any given area (memory, reaction time) is due to their genetics. The other 50% is molded through the environment, like learning, practice, and nutrition. So, for people like Tomac (father John was a mtb champion) he is born with a skillset that others do not necessarily have at birth. You also have guys like Broc Hepler (loads of natural talent and work ethic) but the environment (crashing) reduced his ability to fully use his talent.


A key area of the brain for motoctoss is the prefrontal cortex. This part of the brain is right behind your forehead and was the most recent part of the brain to evolve. This part of our brain makes us human and separates us from animals as it is responsible for things like logical reasoning, working memory, problem solving, planning, impulse control, emotional control, and more.

Impulse control is pretty obvious. Some people are way more impulsive than others on and off the track. We've all seen someone at a local track decide to huck a jump way out of their league for seemingly no reason. Pro riders have to know when to strike for a pass at any moment, but they can't be impulsive and crash. A big par of impulse control is reaction time. Reaction time is huge in motocross. Riders are rocketing around rutted tracks with rocks, jumps, and other riders. There is no time to hesitate if your rear tire kicks out of a rut, of if a lapped rider cuts in front of you. Riders who react at appropriate times (not impulsively) and quickly are some of the most successful at navigating the tracks.

Working memory is how many things a person can remember at one time, like when a rider is approaching a rhythm section he will likely be more successful if he can remember what all 9 (or however many) obstacles are in the section, what rhythms options are available, and the potential times of each option based on the track conditions and position of other riders. Planning is obviously a large component of this as well. Planning can also be important if a rider is pacing their self, planning how/when/where to pass a rider, or how to maintain a lead if you have to ride defensive.

Problem solving is also big in our sport. Riders are continually problem solving as the track deteriorates, riders move around them, and their own body tires. A large part of this is remaining relatively calm (emotional control) when things don't go ideally, such as a bad start, a crash, or maybe a rider brake checks you. Think of Webb / Savatgy in 2016 at Washougal. Did emotions get out of hand? Would a cooler head have handled that situations (And taken the lead?) in a different way?

I hope my post was at least somewhat helpful.

drt410
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4/19/2017 2:46pm
Carmichael personally said he was more hard work than talent. But thats also him being humble and we all know he was extremely naturally gifted on a motorcycle.
PRM31
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Fantasy
4/19/2017 2:57pm
To be a top guy, i.e. Dungey, Tomac, Villo, etc., you have to have both.
Spankey
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4/19/2017 3:18pm
drt410 wrote:
Carmichael personally said he was more hard work than talent. But thats also him being humble and we all know he was extremely naturally gifted on...
Carmichael personally said he was more hard work than talent. But thats also him being humble and we all know he was extremely naturally gifted on a motorcycle.
So much so that He didn't even think about it. I was watching a bit on him when he was at the end of his career and he was talking to someone about car racing. He was saying how it was so hard to focus and it was much harder than motocross. Ya, that's because he was so good at it that most of the time when he was racing he was probably thinking about if he left the iron on.

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