WTF?

flarider
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12/19/2008 11:50am
Some also said Bush was responsible for every negative thing that happened since the day he took office. Now we're learning it was really only the...
Some also said Bush was responsible for every negative thing that happened since the day he took office.
Now we're learning it was really only the Congress that had the right to do anything substantive ....
I think it would depend on what we're talking about specifically
Sinbad
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12/19/2008 11:50am
flarider wrote:
How does the President just give $17B to the automakers without congressional approval? Bush is just telling Paulsen what to do with the bailout money? So...
How does the President just give $17B to the automakers without congressional approval?
Bush is just telling Paulsen what to do with the bailout money?
So in essence, the $700B didn't go to the treasury secretary to bail out the economy, it went to Bush to do as he pleases through Paulsen as a puppet.

Congress said no to the automakers, so the President said "fuck you" and did an end around
flarider wrote:
I don't care what Obama says, I don't like the end around run despite Congress' no vote
That's why its time to re-write that constitution to not allow things like this.
SEEMEFIRST
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12/19/2008 11:58am
flarider wrote:
I guess he can, as long as Congress has low Gallup poll numbers
Can someone get Dave some flash cards to help him with his reading comprehension?

So Dave, are you part of the 19%?


The UAW is alresdy pissing and moaning that they'll shoulder the burden. Those guys are just like you Dave, Bitch about being hung with a new rope.
brainbasket
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12/19/2008 12:37pm
Some also said Bush was responsible for every negative thing that happened since the day he took office. Now we're learning it was really only the...
Some also said Bush was responsible for every negative thing that happened since the day he took office.
Now we're learning it was really only the Congress that had the right to do anything substantive ....
flarider wrote:
I think it would depend on what we're talking about specifically
When the Congress votes on a bill and approves it the President can veto the bill.
He can void 'the will of the Congress' with the stroke of a pen.
He also can attack other countries with the military without Congressional approval.

Approving a few $billion in loans to the automakers is small potatoes ......

The Shop

flarider
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12/19/2008 12:41pm
Some also said Bush was responsible for every negative thing that happened since the day he took office. Now we're learning it was really only the...
Some also said Bush was responsible for every negative thing that happened since the day he took office.
Now we're learning it was really only the Congress that had the right to do anything substantive ....
flarider wrote:
I think it would depend on what we're talking about specifically
When the Congress votes on a bill and approves it the President can veto the bill. He can void 'the will of the Congress' with the...
When the Congress votes on a bill and approves it the President can veto the bill.
He can void 'the will of the Congress' with the stroke of a pen.
He also can attack other countries with the military without Congressional approval.

Approving a few $billion in loans to the automakers is small potatoes ......
and now, when Congress shoots down a bill, the POTUS can say "fuck you" and just do it anyway?

Why have Congress at all?
Sinbad
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12/19/2008 12:43pm
flarider wrote:
I think it would depend on what we're talking about specifically
When the Congress votes on a bill and approves it the President can veto the bill. He can void 'the will of the Congress' with the...
When the Congress votes on a bill and approves it the President can veto the bill.
He can void 'the will of the Congress' with the stroke of a pen.
He also can attack other countries with the military without Congressional approval.

Approving a few $billion in loans to the automakers is small potatoes ......
flarider wrote:
and now, when Congress shoots down a bill, the POTUS can say "fuck you" and just do it anyway?

Why have Congress at all?
Finding out just how shitty the government really is... Priceless!
BMSOB
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12/19/2008 12:44pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 9:35pm
BMSOB wrote:
I don't think they are trying to "clean out the bank before Obama takes office", but they, the Republicans, are still playing partisan politics & sticking...
I don't think they are trying to "clean out the bank before Obama takes office", but they, the Republicans, are still playing partisan politics & sticking to the Reagan era mantra of trying to break the unions which is completely wrongheaded under the current circumstances. That may have been fine with them while they were under the impression that the free market, trickle down style of economic theory was a viable way of operating the economy. As we have now seen that theory has been discredited and amounted to nothing more than one big ponzi scheme with nothing of substance underpinning the stock market & only benefiting a privileged few.

To allow the big 3 to go under would mean that one of the only industry's left in this country that actually produces something of value will go the way of the rest of our manufacturing jobs that have been outsourced at a huge cost to this country & it's already shaky economy.

The Republicans are playing chicken with our jobs & economy for the sake of old outdated ideology that they still can't get past. You would have thought, after the results of the last election that they might have gotten a clue but it appears that they intend to continue to cling to the obstructionism & partisan politics that they have practiced for the last 30 years to the detriment of all.

Kudos to Bush for seeing the logic in trying to save our industry & bucking his own party's flawed logic. I never thought I would say that.

We gave the banking industry pirates a blank check & they produce nothing but bad paper & huge bonuses for their CEO's. To deny the auto industry a relatively paltry sum compared to the $700 billion no questions gift given the bankers is the height stupidity & exactly what we don't need.
The current problems in the global economy aren't a result of a failure of free market principles, and pointing to the last 30 years as evidence...
The current problems in the global economy aren't a result of a failure of free market principles, and pointing to the last 30 years as evidence of it ignores the gains that were made. Or was it really Great Society programs that reduced welfare rolls and poverty over the last 30 years?
It's just as inaccurate to say the economy of 1960 - 1980 was evidence of the failure of alternatives to free market principles.

Maybe Obama can save the labor unions while at the same time maintaining America's competitive edge against countries paying pennies per hour to perform the same tasks.
Maybe he can find a way to redistribute wealth from the wealthy to the less fortunate without chasing away capital and crippling productivity.
But unless or until he does, it's premature to celebrate the demise of free market principles or celebrate the success of socialism IMO.

Being pragmatic may be the answer in the final analysis. I'm hoping so anyway .....
I don't know how you could possibly say that the current state of things doesn't represent the failure of the so-called "free market economy". Milton Friedman's theories have been completely discredited. You cannot continue to spend your way to prosperity basing everything on deficit spending, credit & giving the "investor class" more money to do with as they please. The outsourcing of jobs & manufacturing is a direct result of this.

The bogey man of "socialism" has been bandied about so much by the freemarketeers & the Republicans until it has lost any semblance of reality & become just another scare tactic to defend the party line & continue the flow of taxpayer monies to the rich. They don't seem to mind it so much when it is used, as with the bailout of the banks, to save their own asses but when it comes to bailing out the workers who actually produce something it's a different story.

This is not paean to socialism or to organized labor but rather a plea for a return to regulation & oversight that has been lost to the advocacy of "free market principals" & unfettered greed by those who exploited it.
sc961
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12/19/2008 12:48pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 9:35pm
Why have Congress at all?

I'm starting to wonder about most government positions. They all kind of run together, shrouded by lies, deciept, theft, and over spending other peoples money.

Those checks and balances are being "porked" away. If we had actual public servants, rather than lifelong politicians there would be much less of what we see today.


By the way, I don't like giving the auto industry the $17B anymore than you Dave.
Racer92
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12/19/2008 12:51pm
As long as people who have no stake in the outcome of the election other than freebies and handouts, you will ALWAYS have politicians who will 'pork' things up to get re-elected.

Because I can assure you, the people who actually own, work and pay for things, have a different view than the ones sucking off the system.
brainbasket
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12/19/2008 12:51pm
flarider wrote:
and now, when Congress shoots down a bill, the POTUS can say "fuck you" and just do it anyway?

Why have Congress at all?
When the Congress passes a bill and says "This is what the people want", the President can say "fuck you" and veto it too.

If his only power was to take action only on bills approved by Congress, the Pres would be reduced to little more than a rubber stamp.
mx714
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12/19/2008 1:15pm
Last time I checked the congress already gave him the authority to do this when they voted for the TARP funds.
BMSOB
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12/19/2008 1:16pm
brainbasket
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12/19/2008 1:23pm
BMSOB wrote:
I don't know how you could possibly say that the current state of things doesn't represent the failure of the so-called "free market economy". Milton Friedman's...
I don't know how you could possibly say that the current state of things doesn't represent the failure of the so-called "free market economy". Milton Friedman's theories have been completely discredited. You cannot continue to spend your way to prosperity basing everything on deficit spending, credit & giving the "investor class" more money to do with as they please. The outsourcing of jobs & manufacturing is a direct result of this.

The bogey man of "socialism" has been bandied about so much by the freemarketeers & the Republicans until it has lost any semblance of reality & become just another scare tactic to defend the party line & continue the flow of taxpayer monies to the rich. They don't seem to mind it so much when it is used, as with the bailout of the banks, to save their own asses but when it comes to bailing out the workers who actually produce something it's a different story.

This is not paean to socialism or to organized labor but rather a plea for a return to regulation & oversight that has been lost to the advocacy of "free market principals" & unfettered greed by those who exploited it.
The current state of things could represent the failure of free market theory only if an ideal free market was in place prior to the current troubles - which clearly was not the case.
And throwing out Friedman??
I'll agree Friedman's theories were all wrong based on the last year of economic activity - just as soon as you agree that regulation was all wrong based on the economy of the '70's.

I have no problem with regulation - as long as it's not just a cover for taxation.
In my view, regulation can only be effective when there's an independent authority administering it. But wealth and power control the government, so effective regulation is hard to come by.

I think there was a combination of factors that brought on the current conditions, but it's not possible to know for sure until we can look back 10 years on this period.
BMSOB
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12/19/2008 1:43pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 9:35pm
Not busting your balls, but what is an "ideal free market"? One in which everyone is honest? If that is the case, how do you suppose honesty in business can be enforced if not with regulation? The free market economy was used as a cover of all kinds of financial tricks & shell games that produced nothing of value except disproportionate wealth for 5% of the population. They allowed a few crumbs to "trickle down" just to keep the small fry thinking that were getting a piece of the pie but the greater good was not served. How do you propose we fix this mess without some form of taxation to provide a revenue stream to pay for it all? Clearly the current system isn't working & sooner or later someone has to pay for it. Too bad it's just the shrinking middle class that gets to foot the bill.
brainbasket
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12/19/2008 2:53pm
BMSOB wrote:
Not busting your balls, but what is an "ideal free market"? One in which everyone is honest? If that is the case, how do you suppose...
Not busting your balls, but what is an "ideal free market"? One in which everyone is honest? If that is the case, how do you suppose honesty in business can be enforced if not with regulation? The free market economy was used as a cover of all kinds of financial tricks & shell games that produced nothing of value except disproportionate wealth for 5% of the population. They allowed a few crumbs to "trickle down" just to keep the small fry thinking that were getting a piece of the pie but the greater good was not served. How do you propose we fix this mess without some form of taxation to provide a revenue stream to pay for it all? Clearly the current system isn't working & sooner or later someone has to pay for it. Too bad it's just the shrinking middle class that gets to foot the bill.
What I meant was a true free market - which in theory wouldn't include the regulations in place right now - didn't exist prior to the current problems. I'm not advocating removing all regulations, but Friedman's libertarianism did. The point is that unless most of Friedman's ideals were in place when the current problems sprang up you can't lay the blame on free market theory.

When you speak of the greater good, don't forget that welfare and poverty didn't end under the Great Society programs either. Whatever the shortcomings of any economic theory, it's hard to declare them a success or a failure when all aspects of the theory don't exist in the real economy. I don't argue against all regulation, but I also know the dangers of over regulation on the economy as a whole and on the middle class too.

Again - if there's a way to tax the rich and redistribute wealth to others without stifling growth and productivity and chasing capital away, maybe Obama will find it. If he finds a way to do that he'll fulfill the old adage about a chicken in every pot and we'll all repeal the 2-term restriction by acclaimation... Cool
WhKnuckle
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12/19/2008 2:58pm
The closest thing we've ever had to a free market has been over the last 8 years. Didnt work out well. 'Nuff said.
brainbasket
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12/19/2008 3:21pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
The closest thing we've ever had to a free market has been over the last 8 years. Didnt work out well. 'Nuff said.
Prior to the latest interventions into finance and autos by government, there was an airline bailout and a steel industry bailout during the last 8 years.
None of those actions are 'free market' in any form.

In an excessive regulatory environment, Friedman would predict a stifling of growth and a reduction in productivity - which played out exactly that way during the '70's.

You can be against free market theory - but are you suggesting a return to the alternative?
WhKnuckle
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12/19/2008 4:59pm
I'm saying there's no such thing as any free market in any global industry - every government, without exception, tilts the table to favor their industries. As far as an alternative, I suggest balance and common sense rather than ideology on either side.
BMSOB
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12/19/2008 7:30pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
I'm saying there's no such thing as any free market in any global industry - every government, without exception, tilts the table to favor their industries...
I'm saying there's no such thing as any free market in any global industry - every government, without exception, tilts the table to favor their industries. As far as an alternative, I suggest balance and common sense rather than ideology on either side.
Well said.
12/19/2008 8:13pm
flarider wrote:
How does the President just give $17B to the automakers without congressional approval? Bush is just telling Paulsen what to do with the bailout money? So...
How does the President just give $17B to the automakers without congressional approval?
Bush is just telling Paulsen what to do with the bailout money?
So in essence, the $700B didn't go to the treasury secretary to bail out the economy, it went to Bush to do as he pleases through Paulsen as a puppet.

Congress said no to the automakers, so the President said "fuck you" and did an end around
Your just now figuring out that Bush is the best liberal spender the democrats have had in years ?
Oldmotoguy
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12/19/2008 8:47pm
congress doesn't listen to the people either..fienstein got 91,000 calls and 85,000 were against the bailout..she still voted for the bailout..what does that tell you ? they don't represent the people..they represent rich people only
SEEMEFIRST
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12/19/2008 10:09pm
Oldmotoguy wrote:
congress doesn't listen to the people either..fienstein got 91,000 calls and 85,000 were against the bailout..she still voted for the bailout..what does that tell you...
congress doesn't listen to the people either..fienstein got 91,000 calls and 85,000 were against the bailout..she still voted for the bailout..what does that tell you ? they don't represent the people..they represent rich people only
Thank you.

Right or wrong, someone has to make a decision.

WhipMeister
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12/20/2008 1:06am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 9:35pm
You cannot continue to spend your way to prosperity basing everything on deficit spending, credit & giving the "investor class" more money to do with as they please. The outsourcing of jobs & manufacturing is a direct result of this.


That's not a failure of free markets. That's a failure of character and values. Any system is corruptible by people who refuse to recognize everyone else's equal right to have what they have and try to take advantage by tilting the game their own way. Corruption plays no ideological favorites and will bring down any society. Free democracies are more fortified, but not immune, against subversion because a corrupted power-elite are less able to insulate themselves from the will of the masses. But, if the masses get lazy and disinterested, they'll get it up the ass, too.

The thing that brought down the USSR was corruption of the 'to each...from each' ideal. The fatal flaw in that is that it requires an all-powerful controlling mechanism to execute. And the mechanism is not a machine. It's weak, influencible, corruptible human beings. And since - by ideology - they control everything, the whole thing is doomed to collapse under the weight of their own human flaws.
Rim Lock
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12/20/2008 1:53am
I'm sorry to copy from wikidpedia but this is the best explanation I could find for Dave:

The President should and must have power to make certain decision without Congressional approval, just as Congress has the right to do things without the President's approval. If Congress had to approve everything a President did, Congress would have full authority over both the legislative and executive power of governmant, which would eliminate the concept of checks and balances of the three branches of government that the Constitution sets up.

I think that pretty much explains it whether you like the final answer or not.
flarider
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12/20/2008 4:34am
flarider wrote:
and now, when Congress shoots down a bill, the POTUS can say "fuck you" and just do it anyway?

Why have Congress at all?
When the Congress passes a bill and says "This is what the people want", the President can say "fuck you" and veto it too. If his...
When the Congress passes a bill and says "This is what the people want", the President can say "fuck you" and veto it too.

If his only power was to take action only on bills approved by Congress, the Pres would be reduced to little more than a rubber stamp.
When the Congress passes a bill and says "This is what the people want", the President can say "fuck you" and veto it too.




That is checks and balances and is the sharing of power between the legislative and executive branch.

Show me ANYTHING in the Constitution stating the POTUS can just do as he pleases even after Congress says "No"
Show me where the Constitution gives sole dictatorial powers to make law to the POTUS
flarider
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12/20/2008 4:48am
mx714 wrote:
Last time I checked the congress already gave him the authority to do this when they voted for the TARP funds.
Gave that authority to Paulsen, not Bush
kmdf
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12/20/2008 5:49am
hey dave my parents are leaving for fla. christmas eve. go every year. they drive down to the keys and end back up in disney world for new years. how the weather down that way.
flarider
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12/20/2008 7:11am
Nice
Beautiful, actually
KAWboy14
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12/20/2008 9:30am
dave you obviously dont realise the system that you really live under! the one you think you live under and want to live under doen't exist right now anywhere!
brainbasket
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12/20/2008 11:36am
flarider wrote:
and now, when Congress shoots down a bill, the POTUS can say "fuck you" and just do it anyway?

Why have Congress at all?
When the Congress passes a bill and says "This is what the people want", the President can say "fuck you" and veto it too. If his...
When the Congress passes a bill and says "This is what the people want", the President can say "fuck you" and veto it too.

If his only power was to take action only on bills approved by Congress, the Pres would be reduced to little more than a rubber stamp.
flarider wrote:
[i]When the Congress passes a bill and says "This is what the people want", the President can say "fuck you" and veto it too. [/i] That...
When the Congress passes a bill and says "This is what the people want", the President can say "fuck you" and veto it too.




That is checks and balances and is the sharing of power between the legislative and executive branch.

Show me ANYTHING in the Constitution stating the POTUS can just do as he pleases even after Congress says "No"
Show me where the Constitution gives sole dictatorial powers to make law to the POTUS
You're wrong.

There's seperation of power between the legislative and the executive branch. Your argument is that a President can only act to approve or veto a law passed by Congress, which is wrong on its face. The President can attack another country, supply arms and money to allies and direct foreign policy through his appointed cabinet members without a law being passed. If you think those powers make him a dictator then you need a refresher course on American government.

In this case a law failed to pass and you seem to be saying the failure of passage is the same as passing a law prohibiting the purpose of the failed law. That's not the case. If Congress passed a law that said auto companies are illegal - then you'd be right. But they didn't do that so you're wrong. They simply could not get the votes to pass a law that would have done what Bush did.

And you're also wrong in asserting that Bush assumed dictatorial powers by approving these loans. If Congress chose to they could vote to suspend the TARP program, which would prevent these loans from being made. So the checks and balances are still in place, you're just not looking for them it seems.

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