States cannot ban same sex marriage

watson
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7/1/2015 8:58pm
[b]I also believe that being gay is a choice. [...] At some point in their life, they choose to be gay. Usually around middle school. Elementary...
I also believe that being gay is a choice. [...] At some point in their life, they choose to be gay. Usually around middle school. Elementary school children always have crushes on the opposite sex.

Not many people have the guts to say that these days. If you were a politician, that would end your career.

I am a woman, and am much more attracted to women than men, and I was not born that way, it developed when I was nearly 20 after many years of being a fitness fanatic in the gym. I worked hard 4 days a week to develop my physical appearance in certain ways. I came to find those physical characteristics attractive. I am not attracted to anyone, male or female, who is not visibly fit. My own actions led to this preference. That is why I find it difficult not to chime in every time this topic comes up on vital. I've never gotten into this topic before because people are going to start thinking I have a crew cut and wear bowling shirts when nothing could be further from the truth.

Back to your post.... I have to say that, in my opinion, whether being gay is a choice or not a choice is a false dichotomy.

Commonly asked: "Is being gay a choice?"

The real question: "Are gay people born gay?"

Maybe an example will illustrate why the questions are different:

Fact: liking dirt bikes is not a choice In all honestly, how many vitards sat down one day and stated "I hereby choose to enjoy riding dirt bikes." Of course you didn't say that. You simply tried it and you liked it and you kept doing it. Of course it wasn't a "choice". Now, using the logic of the gay agenda, the fact that your enjoyment of dirt biking wasn't a choice must mean you were born liking dirt bikes. You must have the dirt bike gene.

As laughable as this is, this is the logic that is being used to justify fundamental changes in our society.

I did not CHOOSE to like Toyotas, dislike GM products, hate hockey and be a neat freak. That does not mean I was born this way.
Your experience is anecdotal and a huge exception to what most gay/bisexual people say as to how they arrive at their orientation. Most importantly, current scientific consensus highly suggests that it's not a choice. You can throw any confirmation bias you want at the issue, but them's the breaks.

Can we agree that most people who drive Fords are choosing to be gay, though?
txmxer
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7/1/2015 9:18pm
Really? hey green, do your know how dumb your question is?
h&m_cycle
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7/2/2015 9:36am
Maybe ask Jimmy Albertson, he's here all week...Silly
7/2/2015 12:15pm
You are just silly. This whole thing is comical. Your opinions of Toyotas would not change if they didn't function? The truck stopped running and doing...
You are just silly. This whole thing is comical. Your opinions of Toyotas would not change if they didn't function?


The truck stopped running and doing things that you would expect a truck to do. You cant help but be a toyota fan girl, no matter what the circumstance? I worked in a toyota junk yard btw, way back when. I'm not sure what else to say, besides jokes.

You are talking about a confirmation bias. The same thing that everyone has. If toyota trucks fail consistently with the same issues, and you love them regardless, you are delusional.
Woody! You continue to help me make my point!

The truck situation you describe is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Let's say I had a Sierra that outlasted two Tundras. In this case my environment & experience will have led me to the knowledge that GMs are superior. There was no choice involved on my part.

I could choose to BUY either brand or join a fan club of either brand, but my knowledge of which one is a better truck and therefore which one I prefer is not something I chose.

Readers tuning in late might wonder what trucks have to do with being gay.

I have heard supporters of the l-g-b-t-q-wtfever movement say:

"Ask any gay person and they will tell you they have no choice about their preference. Therefore this means they are born that way."

That line is reasoning is fallacious.

We have little or no choice in PLENTY of our everyday preferences. That does not mean we are born that way. I was not born a Toyota fan or a fan of the female form. Both developed later in life.

I would ask you, gentle reader, a quick favor: Right now, and just for 5 or 10 minutes, please choose to prefer synchronized swimming rather than anything to do with motorcycles as your new hobby, and post a message about your new found passion.

I think you will find it difficult because even in day to day life you can't always choose what you prefer. But that does NOT mean you were born preferring motorcycles, that developed later in life.

The Shop

7/2/2015 12:20pm Edited Date/Time 7/2/2015 12:34pm
watson wrote:
Your experience is anecdotal and a [i]huge[/i] exception to what most gay/bisexual people say as to how they arrive at their orientation. Most importantly, current scientific...
Your experience is anecdotal and a huge exception to what most gay/bisexual people say as to how they arrive at their orientation. Most importantly, current scientific consensus highly suggests that it's not a choice. You can throw any confirmation bias you want at the issue, but them's the breaks.

Can we agree that most people who drive Fords are choosing to be gay, though?
I agree, when most gay people are asked if they are a victim (of their genes) they say yes. There are many who answer no though.

I don't consider an F150 to be a truck so I didn't include it in my example. :^)


edit.. spelling
7/2/2015 12:22pm
I'm just baffled. Somebody that admits that they are attracted to the same sex, just expects the government to save them from themselves. A self proclaimed...
I'm just baffled. Somebody that admits that they are attracted to the same sex, just expects the government to save them from themselves. A self proclaimed conservative, no less.
I don't recall saying I was against gay marriage. Link please.

Also, I have never actually dated a female. I don't expect that I ever will but I will post pics here if I ever do.
motogeezer
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7/2/2015 12:31pm
I agree, when most gay people are asked if they are a victim (of their genes) they say yes. There are many who answer no though...
I agree, when most gay people are asked if they are a victim (of their genes) they say yes. There are many who answer no though.

I don't consider an F150 to be a truck so I didn't include it in my example. :^)


edit.. spelling
A victim of their genes?

Has anyone ever asked a gay person if he felt like a victim of his genes?

I'll bet "most gay people" wouldn't even answer such a ridiculous question.

7/2/2015 12:36pm Edited Date/Time 7/2/2015 12:37pm
Of course they would not word it that way. But that is essentially the question when they are asked if they were born gay.
seth505
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7/2/2015 12:47pm
I'm just baffled. Somebody that admits that they are attracted to the same sex, just expects the government to save them from themselves. A self proclaimed...
I'm just baffled. Somebody that admits that they are attracted to the same sex, just expects the government to save them from themselves. A self proclaimed conservative, no less.
I don't recall saying I was against gay marriage. Link please. Also, I have never actually dated a female. I don't expect that I ever will...
I don't recall saying I was against gay marriage. Link please.

Also, I have never actually dated a female. I don't expect that I ever will but I will post pics here if I ever do.
thank you
motogeezer
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7/2/2015 1:28pm
Of course they would not word it that way. But that is essentially the question when they are asked if they were born gay.
The only person I can think of that would say "no", is David Bowie.

He says he was only gay when it was fashionable. Laughing

I was in the entertainment industry for many years and interacted with lots of LGBT people, many of whom are still good friends.

Not one would tell you that they chose to be the way they are, that's just who they are, and always were.

Most actually struggled with it, but eventually went with their true nature.



h&m_cycle
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7/2/2015 2:37pm
Well, I guess we can't concentrate on the Economy, Terrorism, Immigration & Healthcare as a country...
7/2/2015 5:39pm
h&m_cycle wrote:
Well, I guess we can't concentrate on the Economy, Terrorism, Immigration & Healthcare as a country...
Amen brother. The country is going down the tubes in many ways and China is fixin to become the new lone superpower. So much to work on to try to salvage things.

So Woody if you understand what I said above, even if you vehemently disagree, I would be very happy to end my involvement in this thread.
the_wood109
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7/2/2015 6:15pm Edited Date/Time 7/2/2015 6:17pm
I've understood what you were trying to say from the start. The problem is that it's just wrong.
Edit* I will say that you did not say that you were against gay marriage, but I did make that assumption because your position is pretty much indistinguishable from the people that are against it.
7/2/2015 10:23pm
TerryB wrote:
Why do so many Hetero guys exhibit strong anti-gay Male sentiments, yet are so turned on by two hot "lesbians"..? Personally, I'm aroused by women who...
Why do so many Hetero guys exhibit strong anti-gay Male sentiments, yet are so turned on by two hot "lesbians"..? Personally, I'm aroused by women who want cock. Silly me...

Wood, don't feel bad, I'm anti-religion, pro-gay rights and pro-gun, (and I like chics that like dicks). Seems there isn't a welcoming Pidgeon-hole for me.
TerryB wrote: Why do so many Hetero guys exhibit strong anti-gay Male sentiments, yet are so turned on by two hot "lesbians"..? Personally, I'm aroused by women who want cock. Silly me...

Grinning Sorry hun....rule 1).Its just the way it is.
I know, total double standard!!...but heres about the best way I think it works. (on to rule 2)

rule 2) See rule one!Cheerful

I'm anti-religion, pro-gay rights and pro-gun, (and I like chics that like dicks). Seems there isn't a welcoming Pidgeon-hole for me.

Hmmm.......bi huh? .... hey Id like to introduce you to my wife!Tongue



:
7/4/2015 8:44pm


We can change a man into a woman, but we can't get food to the space station.
the_wood109
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7/4/2015 11:01pm Edited Date/Time 7/4/2015 11:20pm
Woody! You continue to help me make my point! The truck situation you describe is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Let's say I...
Woody! You continue to help me make my point!

The truck situation you describe is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Let's say I had a Sierra that outlasted two Tundras. In this case my environment & experience will have led me to the knowledge that GMs are superior. There was no choice involved on my part.

I could choose to BUY either brand or join a fan club of either brand, but my knowledge of which one is a better truck and therefore which one I prefer is not something I chose.

Readers tuning in late might wonder what trucks have to do with being gay.

I have heard supporters of the l-g-b-t-q-wtfever movement say:

"Ask any gay person and they will tell you they have no choice about their preference. Therefore this means they are born that way."

That line is reasoning is fallacious.

We have little or no choice in PLENTY of our everyday preferences. That does not mean we are born that way. I was not born a Toyota fan or a fan of the female form. Both developed later in life.

I would ask you, gentle reader, a quick favor: Right now, and just for 5 or 10 minutes, please choose to prefer synchronized swimming rather than anything to do with motorcycles as your new hobby, and post a message about your new found passion.

I think you will find it difficult because even in day to day life you can't always choose what you prefer. But that does NOT mean you were born preferring motorcycles, that developed later in life.
This was the one you were talking about...

Let's say I had a Sierra that outlasted two Tundras. In this case my environment & experience will have led me to the knowledge that GMs are superior. There was no choice involved on my part.


Um, yes there is a choice here.


I could choose to BUY either brand or join a fan club of either brand, but my knowledge of which one is a better truck and therefore which one I prefer is not something I chose


Yes, you have a choice. This is why the truck analogy is shit.

"Ask any gay person and they will tell you they have no choice about their preference. Therefore this means they are born that way."

That line is reasoning is fallacious.


You want to talk about poor reasoning? You have yet to even give a solid analogy, let alone any sort of verifiable data that choice is involved... on any level. You're entire line of reason has revolved around "this single twin study says it's not genetic, therefore it must be a choice."

FAIL

We have little or no choice in PLENTY of our everyday preferences. That does not mean we are born that way. I was not born a Toyota fan or a fan of the female form. Both developed later in life.


How can you show that gay people are not born gay? Do you have any data on that, or is it just an assertion?

Nevermind, the fact is that you're asking and answering your own question, which you have given no indication how it would be a better question, or why it would be more important to answer, than simply "do people have a choice?"

I think you will find it difficult because even in day to day life you can't always choose what you prefer. But that does NOT mean you were born preferring motorcycles, that developed later in life.

This is true. You don't have a choice in which gender you are attracted to. You do have a choice in whether or not you lie about it, and try to live a "normal" life, in accordance with religious right wing nutbags.

*Edit- This is why many of the priests that "choose" celibacy end up molesting children. Chances are, they were pedophiles for their entire lives, and they thought that joining the church would cure them of it. They made a "choice" that had little to no effect on the things that they never had any choice over.
7/5/2015 9:00am
This was the one you were talking about... [b] Let's say I had a Sierra that outlasted two Tundras. In this case my environment & experience...
This was the one you were talking about...

Let's say I had a Sierra that outlasted two Tundras. In this case my environment & experience will have led me to the knowledge that GMs are superior. There was no choice involved on my part.


Um, yes there is a choice here.


I could choose to BUY either brand or join a fan club of either brand, but my knowledge of which one is a better truck and therefore which one I prefer is not something I chose


Yes, you have a choice. This is why the truck analogy is shit.

"Ask any gay person and they will tell you they have no choice about their preference. Therefore this means they are born that way."

That line is reasoning is fallacious.


You want to talk about poor reasoning? You have yet to even give a solid analogy, let alone any sort of verifiable data that choice is involved... on any level. You're entire line of reason has revolved around "this single twin study says it's not genetic, therefore it must be a choice."

FAIL

We have little or no choice in PLENTY of our everyday preferences. That does not mean we are born that way. I was not born a Toyota fan or a fan of the female form. Both developed later in life.


How can you show that gay people are not born gay? Do you have any data on that, or is it just an assertion?

Nevermind, the fact is that you're asking and answering your own question, which you have given no indication how it would be a better question, or why it would be more important to answer, than simply "do people have a choice?"

I think you will find it difficult because even in day to day life you can't always choose what you prefer. But that does NOT mean you were born preferring motorcycles, that developed later in life.

This is true. You don't have a choice in which gender you are attracted to. You do have a choice in whether or not you lie about it, and try to live a "normal" life, in accordance with religious right wing nutbags.

*Edit- This is why many of the priests that "choose" celibacy end up molesting children. Chances are, they were pedophiles for their entire lives, and they thought that joining the church would cure them of it. They made a "choice" that had little to no effect on the things that they never had any choice over.
me: Let's say I had a Sierra that outlasted two Tundras. In this case my environment & experience will have led me to the knowledge that GMs are superior. There was no choice involved on my part.

you: Um, yes there is a choice here.


Please explain where choice would be involved in that scenario.




Yes, you have a choice. This is why the truck analogy is shit.

The truck scenario was not an analogy, it was an example. You will have to google the difference, I don't have time to explain it to you here.







"Ask any gay person and they will tell you they have no choice about their preference. Therefore this means they are born that way."

That line is reasoning is fallacious.

You want to talk about poor reasoning? You have yet to even give a solid analogy, let alone any sort of verifiable data that choice is involved... on any level.


Show me where I said it was a choice.





You're entire line of reason has revolved around "this single twin study says it's not genetic, therefore it must be a choice."

Show me where I said it was a choice.



I stand by my position that reasoning I described as fallacious is just that. If you, as a master of logic & debating and all-round tough guy when hiding behind a computer screen, would like to defend it, I would listen.




How can you show that gay people are not born gay? Do you have any data on that, or is it just an assertion?

I wonder how you get by in life with your learning disability. I guess being such a pompous ass makes up for it. Can you show me where I asserted what you just said, or made any assertion at all apart from the fact the the above-mentioned line of reasoning is not sound, and giving examples to show that most preferences in life are not a choice but are surely not innate.
Nighttrain
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7/5/2015 10:47am
Why is the U.S. Government even involved in marriage? It's a contractural agreement between consenting adults and nothing more. Besides, the gay marriage gift registries would be a huge boost to the retail economy.
h&m_cycle
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7/5/2015 11:06am Edited Date/Time 7/5/2015 11:08am
Nighttrain wrote:
Why is the U.S. Government even involved in marriage? It's a contractural agreement between consenting adults and nothing more. Besides, the gay marriage gift registries would...
Why is the U.S. Government even involved in marriage? It's a contractural agreement between consenting adults and nothing more. Besides, the gay marriage gift registries would be a huge boost to the retail economy.
Because, "it was suggested" but there is No Separation of Church & State in the Constitution...

People read the 14th amendment as they see fit to see it...

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
the_wood109
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7/5/2015 11:18am Edited Date/Time 7/5/2015 11:20am
Nighttrain wrote:
Why is the U.S. Government even involved in marriage? It's a contractural agreement between consenting adults and nothing more. Besides, the gay marriage gift registries would...
Why is the U.S. Government even involved in marriage? It's a contractural agreement between consenting adults and nothing more. Besides, the gay marriage gift registries would be a huge boost to the retail economy.
h&m_cycle wrote:
Because, "it was suggested" but there is [b]No[/b] Separation of Church & State in the Constitution... People read the 14th amendment as they see fit to...
Because, "it was suggested" but there is No Separation of Church & State in the Constitution...

People read the 14th amendment as they see fit to see it...

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Yes, it's not in the 14th...it's in the 1st.

You people crack me up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Cons…

Here is Jefferson on the topic, as well.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.[9]
Nighttrain
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7/5/2015 11:19am
h&m_cycle wrote:
Because, "it was suggested" but there is [b]No[/b] Separation of Church & State in the Constitution... People read the 14th amendment as they see fit to...
Because, "it was suggested" but there is No Separation of Church & State in the Constitution...

People read the 14th amendment as they see fit to see it...

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Right. I should have said "why was the U.S. govt ever involved with saying who can enter the contract of marriage?" IMO, all tax considerations should be removed from marital status, individual rights trumps all and they should stop trying to legislate morality to favor key constituents.
h&m_cycle
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7/5/2015 11:30am
Yes, it's not in the 14th...it's in the 1st. You people crack me up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution Here is Jefferson on the topic, as well. [i]Believing with you...
Yes, it's not in the 14th...it's in the 1st.

You people crack me up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Cons…

Here is Jefferson on the topic, as well.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.[9]
I agree, Justice Thomas & Justice Scalia seem not to...

First Amendment - Religion and Expression. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
the_wood109
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7/5/2015 11:37am
Stephanie, in case you haven't figured it out by now, I've decided just to strawman you after reading this monstrosity. Pretty annoying when people do that, isn't it?


I have heard supporters of the l-g-b-t-q-wtfever movement say:

"Ask any gay person and they will tell you they have no choice about their preference. Therefore this means they are born that way."

That line is reasoning is fallacious.


Any productive conversation is pretty much impossible, considering your definition of choice is completely backwards.

choice
[ CHois ]
NOUN

- an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities:

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