Another sign that it's hopeless

borg
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Edited Date/Time 11/6/2013 7:08pm
Just looking at the results of the race for Virginia governor and my dour predictions for our future are reinforced.

The winner, McCauliff, is the epitome of the slimy, two faced weasel word politician.
The runner up, Cuccinelli, is the dinosaur, anti immigrant, anti gay, bible thumper. Typical Republican.
When people talk about getting rid of the status quo, as every national poll on the subject show , these are the guy's they are talking about. McCauliff and Cuccinelli. They basically split the vote, with Sarvis, the Libertarian, coming in with about 7%. That's the problem. Sarvis, if you look at his platform, was the candidate who offered a different path with many elements that should appeal to many voters . So when the time came, the voters flock to the polls and vote for two guys they say they want to get rid of.

I didn't expect Sarvis to win, but his poor showing pretty much reinforces what I have come to accept, that we will never reverse the downhill spiral that we are in. In fact, it seems we are just spinning faster.

I'm not a big fan of the Libertarian party. They don't really seem to care whether they win or not as long as they have their 15 minutes to act pompous and superior. They are clueless when it comes to winning an election. As individuals, many Libertarians are very appealing as candidates. Maybe they should run more as independents.
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11/6/2013 7:35am
I think Rand Paul is going to make major waves in the Republican Primaries. The problem with libertarians (besides what you mentioned above) is that though many people agree with much of their ideals, the vast majority do not wan't to live in a completely privatized free market limited government country. If a libertarian type that was more pragmatic with a platform to have a transparent, limited corruption, medium sized government then they could actually pose a threat in major elections. Also the way that the most vocal Libertarians come across (with their tin foil hats and all) will hinder them from any serious consideration by the general public.
borg
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11/6/2013 7:55am
I think Rand Paul is going to make major waves in the Republican Primaries. The problem with libertarians (besides what you mentioned above) is that though...
I think Rand Paul is going to make major waves in the Republican Primaries. The problem with libertarians (besides what you mentioned above) is that though many people agree with much of their ideals, the vast majority do not wan't to live in a completely privatized free market limited government country. If a libertarian type that was more pragmatic with a platform to have a transparent, limited corruption, medium sized government then they could actually pose a threat in major elections. Also the way that the most vocal Libertarians come across (with their tin foil hats and all) will hinder them from any serious consideration by the general public.
You pretty much nailed it on Libertarians but it's still hard to accept that people are not fed up enough with republicrats to make more of a leap that 6 or 7%. That's pretty much where Libertarians have been historically. It doesn't speak well for any change coming any time soon.
Titan1
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11/6/2013 8:25am
I don't think the reason Libertarians aren't getting more of the vote has to do as much with their platform, or presentation, or candidates...as much as it has to do with the fact that elections in America are a frikkin' popularity contest...which means Americans are lazy. The vote for the guy they've heard of...not the guy who they've researched his positions and agree with.

There is a reason you get the Clintons and Marco Rubio stumping in VA....because the politicians know that if you haven't heard of the candidate, you will have heard of them...and you'll vote for who they tell you to vote for.

I don't blame the libertarian party for not winning elections...I blame the American people for being lazy.
borg
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11/6/2013 8:41am
Titan1 wrote:
I don't think the reason Libertarians aren't getting more of the vote has to do as much with their platform, or presentation, or candidates...as much as...
I don't think the reason Libertarians aren't getting more of the vote has to do as much with their platform, or presentation, or candidates...as much as it has to do with the fact that elections in America are a frikkin' popularity contest...which means Americans are lazy. The vote for the guy they've heard of...not the guy who they've researched his positions and agree with.

There is a reason you get the Clintons and Marco Rubio stumping in VA....because the politicians know that if you haven't heard of the candidate, you will have heard of them...and you'll vote for who they tell you to vote for.

I don't blame the libertarian party for not winning elections...I blame the American people for being lazy.
I blame the voters too but there have been independents who have done well before. I don't want to make this about Libertarians per say but they have been the most viable 3rd party for a long time and they have made very little or no headway. Especially now at a time when voters claim to be fed up with the status quo. It has also been very hard to get your word out but less so now with the internet. Yesterday, I knew little or nothing about Sarvis. Today I know much more with just couple of hours of research. So I agree that it's mostly low information voters that decide elections but I don't know what to do about that. I do know that libertarians could do a better job of being more appealing.

The Shop

11/6/2013 8:42am
Titan1 wrote:
I don't think the reason Libertarians aren't getting more of the vote has to do as much with their platform, or presentation, or candidates...as much as...
I don't think the reason Libertarians aren't getting more of the vote has to do as much with their platform, or presentation, or candidates...as much as it has to do with the fact that elections in America are a frikkin' popularity contest...which means Americans are lazy. The vote for the guy they've heard of...not the guy who they've researched his positions and agree with.

There is a reason you get the Clintons and Marco Rubio stumping in VA....because the politicians know that if you haven't heard of the candidate, you will have heard of them...and you'll vote for who they tell you to vote for.

I don't blame the libertarian party for not winning elections...I blame the American people for being lazy.
So what you are saying is if people were just more informed on the issues and not lazy then Libertarians would win major elections? Hmm, I believe I am adequately informed enough to cast a vote for a candidate that aligns most with my values, yet I have never voted for a libertarian. Is that because I am lazy?

Lets add this weird arrogance that non Libertarian voting people are lazy, ill informed, or lack the general insight to see how things really are.
11/6/2013 8:45am
I don't know if Chris Christie will govern any differently than the status quo but he will certainly come across very differently than what we are accustomed to and seemingly most wan't in his campaign.
bradnelson
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11/6/2013 9:13am
Do you know that an Obama supporter (billionaire) actually funded Sarvis' campaign ? What's up with that ?
Titan1
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11/6/2013 9:20am
Titan1 wrote:
I don't think the reason Libertarians aren't getting more of the vote has to do as much with their platform, or presentation, or candidates...as much as...
I don't think the reason Libertarians aren't getting more of the vote has to do as much with their platform, or presentation, or candidates...as much as it has to do with the fact that elections in America are a frikkin' popularity contest...which means Americans are lazy. The vote for the guy they've heard of...not the guy who they've researched his positions and agree with.

There is a reason you get the Clintons and Marco Rubio stumping in VA....because the politicians know that if you haven't heard of the candidate, you will have heard of them...and you'll vote for who they tell you to vote for.

I don't blame the libertarian party for not winning elections...I blame the American people for being lazy.
So what you are saying is if people were just more informed on the issues and not lazy then Libertarians would win major elections? Hmm, I...
So what you are saying is if people were just more informed on the issues and not lazy then Libertarians would win major elections? Hmm, I believe I am adequately informed enough to cast a vote for a candidate that aligns most with my values, yet I have never voted for a libertarian. Is that because I am lazy?

Lets add this weird arrogance that non Libertarian voting people are lazy, ill informed, or lack the general insight to see how things really are.
Not necessarily. I won't be so arrogant as to say that libertarians offer what every voter wants.

But I do know that the more educated MOST voters get, the less likely they are to continue voting for EITHER the democrat or republican candidates. (and I'm not talking about educated on the talking points...but educated on the big picture). Yes, there will always be the "bases" of either party, which are educated on the issues, well meaning, and diligent but party vote at every election (my dad is one of these people...he'll vote republican until the day he dies...and can debate any and every issue with anyone. So he's educated, well informed, etc...but he is simply loyal to the republican party).

If more people would understand the fact that the republicans and democrats (on all but moral/social issues) are the same...they'd look for other parties to support (libertarian, independent, etc.).

The fact that people insist on voting either republican or democrat is the problem with this country.
bradnelson
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11/6/2013 9:24am
Washington said "Don't form political parties, they will lead to the death of the country"....... or something like that.
11/6/2013 10:03am
The biggest issue facing Libertarians is raising enough money to fund a major campaign. I mean, you can only sell so many racist newsletters and promote the hording of gold while buying stocks in gold mines.

Isolationist = No Defense industry money
Deregulation of Industries = No environmental group money, maybe Big Oil?
Ending collective bargaining for public workers = no Union money
Deregulation of Wall Street (now we are talking) Wait "End the Fed" = No Wall Street Money
Hollywood? (They like Freedom to express their depravity) dang, forgot about the racist newsletters = No Hollywood money
Big Oil it is (oops forgot our foreign and monetary policy will end the use of the "Petrodollar" = No Big Oil

So now what?
Titan1
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11/6/2013 10:32am
The biggest issue facing Libertarians is raising enough money to fund a major campaign. I mean, you can only sell so many racist newsletters and promote...
The biggest issue facing Libertarians is raising enough money to fund a major campaign. I mean, you can only sell so many racist newsletters and promote the hording of gold while buying stocks in gold mines.

Isolationist = No Defense industry money
Deregulation of Industries = No environmental group money, maybe Big Oil?
Ending collective bargaining for public workers = no Union money
Deregulation of Wall Street (now we are talking) Wait "End the Fed" = No Wall Street Money
Hollywood? (They like Freedom to express their depravity) dang, forgot about the racist newsletters = No Hollywood money
Big Oil it is (oops forgot our foreign and monetary policy will end the use of the "Petrodollar" = No Big Oil

So now what?
Look, if you can't make your case without strawman arguments and theatrics, then I think that says a lot about where you're coming from.

So basically, you are illustrating the biggest problem with politics in America...its not about the best ideas, or positions...it's about who has the most money. That means politicians are going into office already "bought and paid" for.

Maybe the solution, rather than be stuck with the "same ol', same ol'" like we've been getting for 80 years...is to get money out of politics...rather than slamming smaller parties for not having enough of it?

Unless of course, you are okay with these bought and paid for politicians? I'm not.

I'd rather get money out of politics (and the "Favors" that go with it)....but you sound like a loyal republican...loyal republicans (like loyal democrats) LOVE the status quo...so I'm not surprised to see where you stand on this.
11/6/2013 11:07am
The biggest issue facing Libertarians is raising enough money to fund a major campaign. I mean, you can only sell so many racist newsletters and promote...
The biggest issue facing Libertarians is raising enough money to fund a major campaign. I mean, you can only sell so many racist newsletters and promote the hording of gold while buying stocks in gold mines.

Isolationist = No Defense industry money
Deregulation of Industries = No environmental group money, maybe Big Oil?
Ending collective bargaining for public workers = no Union money
Deregulation of Wall Street (now we are talking) Wait "End the Fed" = No Wall Street Money
Hollywood? (They like Freedom to express their depravity) dang, forgot about the racist newsletters = No Hollywood money
Big Oil it is (oops forgot our foreign and monetary policy will end the use of the "Petrodollar" = No Big Oil

So now what?
Titan1 wrote:
Look, if you can't make your case without strawman arguments and theatrics, then I think that says a lot about where you're coming from. So basically...
Look, if you can't make your case without strawman arguments and theatrics, then I think that says a lot about where you're coming from.

So basically, you are illustrating the biggest problem with politics in America...its not about the best ideas, or positions...it's about who has the most money. That means politicians are going into office already "bought and paid" for.

Maybe the solution, rather than be stuck with the "same ol', same ol'" like we've been getting for 80 years...is to get money out of politics...rather than slamming smaller parties for not having enough of it?

Unless of course, you are okay with these bought and paid for politicians? I'm not.

I'd rather get money out of politics (and the "Favors" that go with it)....but you sound like a loyal republican...loyal republicans (like loyal democrats) LOVE the status quo...so I'm not surprised to see where you stand on this.
Where's the straw man in that? That is not a straw man argument. Theatrics, well, that is what keeps it interesting for me. Money is the biggest issue in politics. If anything, what I said above shows why Libertarians are / can be appealing to many. However, putting someone in office who wants to drastically change so much without a realistic assessment of their policies' implications is not an alternative I or the majority would be willing to support. I am not slamming Libertarians for not having enough money, I am just being realistic as to one of the main reasons they are unable to get over 10% support.
vet323
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11/6/2013 11:18am
bradnelson wrote:
Do you know that an Obama supporter (billionaire) actually funded Sarvis' campaign ? What's up with that ?
Yeah, I don't think Sarvis was a real Libertarian.
bradnelson
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11/6/2013 11:35am
And he stole enough votes from Cuccinelli, that Mcauliffe got elected. That just doesn't seem right. Oh well, VA will get what they asked for.
11/6/2013 12:00pm
That's fine, but the way I look at it, things can get a lot worse. I see no reason to vote for an unconventional candidate just because he "isn't the status quo". I also think the majority of Libertarians would quickly become status quo if they were ever to get elected. I would like to see a Libertarian get elected as a Governor and implement their policies so we can see if it would actually work. When I vote I vote for the person I think would do the best job. In a Presidential election that means one with a lot of experience and a long track record to see what they have accomplished and what direction they will take the country. I would vote for a decent Democrat Governor over a Republican Congressman or Senator probably 80% of the time.
Titan1
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11/6/2013 12:21pm
That's fine, but the way I look at it, things can get a lot worse. I see no reason to vote for an unconventional candidate just...
That's fine, but the way I look at it, things can get a lot worse. I see no reason to vote for an unconventional candidate just because he "isn't the status quo". I also think the majority of Libertarians would quickly become status quo if they were ever to get elected. I would like to see a Libertarian get elected as a Governor and implement their policies so we can see if it would actually work. When I vote I vote for the person I think would do the best job. In a Presidential election that means one with a lot of experience and a long track record to see what they have accomplished and what direction they will take the country. I would vote for a decent Democrat Governor over a Republican Congressman or Senator probably 80% of the time.
The only "long track record" mainstream democrats and republicans have is of toting the party line, taking huge campaign contributions, caving to lobbyist, telling Americans what they want to hear...then doing the opposite, eliminating our liberties, and on and on and on...

THAT is the direction the republicans and democrats are taking the country.

Do you vote for incumbents in congress? If so, do you think congress is doing a good job?
11/6/2013 1:16pm Edited Date/Time 11/6/2013 1:18pm
That's fine, but the way I look at it, things can get a lot worse. I see no reason to vote for an unconventional candidate just...
That's fine, but the way I look at it, things can get a lot worse. I see no reason to vote for an unconventional candidate just because he "isn't the status quo". I also think the majority of Libertarians would quickly become status quo if they were ever to get elected. I would like to see a Libertarian get elected as a Governor and implement their policies so we can see if it would actually work. When I vote I vote for the person I think would do the best job. In a Presidential election that means one with a lot of experience and a long track record to see what they have accomplished and what direction they will take the country. I would vote for a decent Democrat Governor over a Republican Congressman or Senator probably 80% of the time.
Titan1 wrote:
The only "long track record" mainstream democrats and republicans have is of toting the party line, taking huge campaign contributions, caving to lobbyist, telling Americans what...
The only "long track record" mainstream democrats and republicans have is of toting the party line, taking huge campaign contributions, caving to lobbyist, telling Americans what they want to hear...then doing the opposite, eliminating our liberties, and on and on and on...

THAT is the direction the republicans and democrats are taking the country.

Do you vote for incumbents in congress? If so, do you think congress is doing a good job?
I don't have an incumbent in Congress but when he comes up for re-election I will certainly vote for him again. I like him a lot. One time he came to my door while he was a state senator and my dog dog who usually doesn't have access to the front door was there and nearly jumped through the window to get at him. Kilmer took it all in stride, wasn't rattled by it at all. He is extremely accessible. You see him all around. He often gets out to meet with Ferry commuters at 6:00 A.M.
He has a PhD from Oxford in social policy and economic development. He is a bad ass, a nerdy one but that is how we like em up here.

Derek Kilmer


motosmith
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11/6/2013 2:48pm
Nope. It will be Chris Christie and it's gonna be a blood bath for the Democrat. Obummer is giving the republican nominee way too much ammo.
Titan1
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11/6/2013 3:24pm Edited Date/Time 11/6/2013 3:25pm
motosmith wrote:
Nope. It will be Chris Christie and it's gonna be a blood bath for the Democrat. Obummer is giving the republican nominee way too much ammo.
Yup...a blood bath for the American people and liberty if EITHER a republican or a democrat get the white house.
11/6/2013 3:52pm
motosmith wrote:
Nope. It will be Chris Christie and it's gonna be a blood bath for the Democrat. Obummer is giving the republican nominee way too much ammo.
Titan1 wrote:
Yup...a blood bath for the American people and liberty if EITHER a republican or a democrat get the white house.
Are things really that bad? It is not that bad from my vantage point. Sure things could be better but you just got to ebb and flow, take the good with the bad, bob and weave like a windshield wiper.
Titan1
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11/6/2013 4:19pm
motosmith wrote:
Nope. It will be Chris Christie and it's gonna be a blood bath for the Democrat. Obummer is giving the republican nominee way too much ammo.
Titan1 wrote:
Yup...a blood bath for the American people and liberty if EITHER a republican or a democrat get the white house.
Are things really that bad? It is not that bad from my vantage point. Sure things could be better but you just got to ebb and...
Are things really that bad? It is not that bad from my vantage point. Sure things could be better but you just got to ebb and flow, take the good with the bad, bob and weave like a windshield wiper.
Between the patriot act, GITMO, NDAA, SIPA, the national debt, a decade and a half war, NSA spying, the ever crushing weight of an ever expanding welfare state, lobbying, quantitative easing, and on and on and on...yes, it's pretty bad and only getting worse so long as people keep voting for the republocrats.

Frikkin' congress has like an 8% approval rating...yet the incumbent re-election rate is about 80%. What in the world? What am I missing? Stop voting for incumbents...and stop voting republocrat!
11/6/2013 5:05pm
Most people don't even know what Libertarian is. I was telling one of my friends I voted for the Libertarian Candidate (Gary Johnson) in the last presidential election, and he thought that meant I was a bleeding heart liberal, because the words were close.
Titan1
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11/6/2013 6:32pm
I always get a chuckle when republocrats go on and on about how unrealistic libertarian policies are and how they would never work....NEWS FLASH...look around...the republocrats policies arent working! Lol...Republocrats are destroying America....to keep doing what they've been doing isn't an option for me.
bsm121
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11/6/2013 7:08pm

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