250 VS 450 almost the same

resetjet
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resetjet
Edited Date/Time 9/30/2013 8:02pm
After watching the MXON and every other race this year, comparing lap times, etc.....They have worked the 250 to the point where it is almost as good as a 450......In MXON, the 250's were out holeshotting the 450's in numbers. Its almost now like we have an identical class to an extent. Certainly no 125 250 like we had in the past. Time to let the 2T's in also to mix it up. I think at this point it is perfectly fair to let a 250 2t race against a 250 4T. This will also allow the privateers a better chance.....
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pecu_83
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pecu_83 9/30/2013 6:10am
9/30/2013 6:10am
I think this has been discussed over and over again.

If I was to rule, i´d make the displacement rules back to 125, 250 and 500 no matter strokes. Or if you want 2 classes, it would be 125 and Open.
newmann
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newmann 9/30/2013 6:17am
9/30/2013 6:17am
A 250F will never be as fast as a 250 2 stroke and a 350 will never beat a 450. The things you learn on Vital.....hmmmmm

Oh wait, a 250F beat a 450? How can that be? Does the rider actually make a difference after all? I was told by people at work that the bike does all the work.

Boy oh boy how the OEM's and the powers that be, AMA , FIM skullphucked the sport a good one with those lovely high strung thumpers. At least the FIM seems to be doing something about it with the 125 class and the new 300 class.
kev472
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kev472 9/30/2013 7:30am
9/30/2013 7:30am
the 250 is easier to ride on some tracks, were you can't fully use the power of the 450
Short straightaways and lots of corners are 250 territory

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Lonestar_399
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Lonestar_399 9/30/2013 7:48am
9/30/2013 7:48am
And don't forget "there is no replacement for displacement" ! LOL .

The track did not look to me to be an advantage for a 250 other than the 450's carrying around the extra weight.
jwag87
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jwag87 9/30/2013 8:34am
9/30/2013 8:34am
Try holding a 450 wide open around your local track and see how quick you will be in the woods seeing stars. Now do it on a 250f and you will understand the 250f is a light quick turning bike with a tame hit.the 450 is a dragon with way too much motor and heavy as hell.
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Racer92 9/30/2013 8:40am
9/30/2013 8:40am
newmann wrote:
A 250F will never be as fast as a 250 2 stroke and a 350 will never beat a 450. The things you learn on Vital.....hmmmmm...
A 250F will never be as fast as a 250 2 stroke and a 350 will never beat a 450. The things you learn on Vital.....hmmmmm

Oh wait, a 250F beat a 450? How can that be? Does the rider actually make a difference after all? I was told by people at work that the bike does all the work.

Boy oh boy how the OEM's and the powers that be, AMA , FIM skullphucked the sport a good one with those lovely high strung thumpers. At least the FIM seems to be doing something about it with the 125 class and the new 300 class.
^ Wise man right here.
peelout
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peelout 9/30/2013 9:56am
9/30/2013 9:56am
resetjet wrote:
After watching the MXON and every other race this year, comparing lap times, etc.....They have worked the 250 to the point where it is almost as...
After watching the MXON and every other race this year, comparing lap times, etc.....They have worked the 250 to the point where it is almost as good as a 450......In MXON, the 250's were out holeshotting the 450's in numbers. Its almost now like we have an identical class to an extent. Certainly no 125 250 like we had in the past. Time to let the 2T's in also to mix it up. I think at this point it is perfectly fair to let a 250 2t race against a 250 4T. This will also allow the privateers a better chance.....
i agree, and i would love to see the 250 smokers line up against the 250 strokers.

unfortunately, that will never happen as long as the "Big 4" have anything to say about it.
OldYZRider1
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OldYZRider1 9/30/2013 11:37am
9/30/2013 11:37am
The class structure we know exists as a concession to the participating manufacturer's to "advertise" their products in distinctly different classes. They infuse a lot of money into the sport so they're demand for this is agreed to by the AMA/MX Sports. What the "core" fans might like to see definitely takes a back seat to the "teams" desires. Since the "teams" are directly connected to the factories or their dealers the fans are mostly out of the loop. As a consequence we will likely never see 250F's running head to head against 450F's (except for events like the MXdN) even though the teams that can handle the expense of campaigning a 250F thru an outdoor season could possibly finish the season with better overall results.

If the sport can't find some significant non-bike industry money and management willing to break the status quo things won't change. Have to hand it to Youthstream though, they seem to be more inclined to shake things up; they've created the new 300cc two stroke class and already have a 125cc class. Hopefully we'll also be able to see the 300's competing against the four strokes at the MXdN but I'd guess the manufacturer's who aren't "endorsing" the two strokes likely won't allow that to happen without a fight. Not sure even Youthstream could withstand that.
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bullpen658 9/30/2013 12:43pm
9/30/2013 12:43pm
derestricted wrote:
VS 300 CC 2 stroke? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/09/30/33020/s1200_1274713_669938276357221_699313110_o.jpg[/img]
VS 300 CC 2 stroke?
Needs a longer silencer, +2 teeth on the rear, and +2 on compression on the forks.
derestricted 9/30/2013 12:58pm
9/30/2013 12:58pm
derestricted wrote:
VS 300 CC 2 stroke? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/09/30/33020/s1200_1274713_669938276357221_699313110_o.jpg[/img]
VS 300 CC 2 stroke?
bullpen658 wrote:
Needs a longer silencer, +2 teeth on the rear, and +2 on compression on the forks.
Pretty sure it needs -2 on rebound though.
GoldenState54 9/30/2013 12:59pm
9/30/2013 12:59pm
How did Herlings do in the superfinals on a 250 against the 450's??
dazzlindino 9/30/2013 1:00pm
9/30/2013 1:00pm
derestricted wrote:
VS 300 CC 2 stroke? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/09/30/33020/s1200_1274713_669938276357221_699313110_o.jpg[/img]
VS 300 CC 2 stroke?
bullpen658 wrote:
Needs a longer silencer, +2 teeth on the rear, and +2 on compression on the forks.
derestricted wrote:
Pretty sure it needs -2 on rebound though.
yeppers...stripped form the headlines of glen helen action......
TheWeapon 9/30/2013 3:30pm
9/30/2013 3:30pm
I can't recall who, but there have been a few times where 125s have won motos at the MXdN. Also, the ISDE (which is now on - and Geico Honda rider Zach Osborne is having a crack at it) has been won outright on 125s also. I think the MXdN should go (back) to 125cc, 250cc and open. But of course there will always be complaints - I recall an American magazine making a statement along the lines of "Steve Lamson did well for his 3-3 result on one of the only legitimate 125cc bikes"
queen of spodes 9/30/2013 4:58pm
9/30/2013 4:58pm
jwag87 wrote:
Try holding a 450 wide open around your local track and see how quick you will be in the woods seeing stars. Now do it on...
Try holding a 450 wide open around your local track and see how quick you will be in the woods seeing stars. Now do it on a 250f and you will understand the 250f is a light quick turning bike with a tame hit.the 450 is a dragon with way too much motor and heavy as hell.
It's 1991 all over again.
queen of spodes 9/30/2013 5:02pm
9/30/2013 5:02pm
TheWeapon wrote:
I can't recall who, but there have been a few times where 125s have won motos at the MXdN. Also, the ISDE (which is now on...
I can't recall who, but there have been a few times where 125s have won motos at the MXdN. Also, the ISDE (which is now on - and Geico Honda rider Zach Osborne is having a crack at it) has been won outright on 125s also. I think the MXdN should go (back) to 125cc, 250cc and open. But of course there will always be complaints - I recall an American magazine making a statement along the lines of "Steve Lamson did well for his 3-3 result on one of the only legitimate 125cc bikes"
[embed][/embed]
sharkey
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sharkey 9/30/2013 5:04pm
9/30/2013 5:04pm
kev472 wrote:
the 250 is easier to ride on some tracks, were you can't fully use the power of the 450 Short straightaways and lots of corners are...
the 250 is easier to ride on some tracks, were you can't fully use the power of the 450
Short straightaways and lots of corners are 250 territory
bingo. thats what I learned too

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TheWeapon 9/30/2013 5:16pm
9/30/2013 5:16pm
Thanks Queen of Spodes, great footage. I think it was actually Lamson in 1996 who won the 125/500 moto, and has been the only rider to do it. I think it was he and Tortelli beating the 500s.
Park Boys
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Park Boys 9/30/2013 5:17pm
9/30/2013 5:17pm
TheWeapon wrote:
Thanks Queen of Spodes, great footage. I think it was actually Lamson in 1996 who won the 125/500 moto, and has been the only rider to...
Thanks Queen of Spodes, great footage. I think it was actually Lamson in 1996 who won the 125/500 moto, and has been the only rider to do it. I think it was he and Tortelli beating the 500s.
Yep, Emigs only ride on the 500 he was out front and waved them by.
queen of spodes 9/30/2013 5:41pm
9/30/2013 5:41pm
Park Boys wrote:
Yep, Emigs only ride on the 500 he was out front and waved them by.
Still amazed every time I see this downhill quad Emig hucks lap after lap on the antique.
[embed][/embed]
TheWeapon 9/30/2013 5:44pm
9/30/2013 5:44pm
Park Boys wrote:
Yep, Emigs only ride on the 500 he was out front and waved them by.
Nope - Lamson caught and passed him and pulled away, Tortelli passed him about 10 minutes later (I just found the vid online - shame it's all in Spanish). Still, he had no 'need' to stay in front of them, as the classes were scored separately then.
Dave927
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Dave927 9/30/2013 5:50pm
9/30/2013 5:50pm
Didn't Johnny O'mara win the DesNations on a 125 back in 83 or something like that?
Travis_Hudson 9/30/2013 6:06pm
9/30/2013 6:06pm
derestricted wrote:
VS 300 CC 2 stroke? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/09/30/33020/s1200_1274713_669938276357221_699313110_o.jpg[/img]
VS 300 CC 2 stroke?
Kind of a sexy bitch right there!
ATKpilot99
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ATKpilot99 9/30/2013 6:16pm
9/30/2013 6:16pm
Dave927 wrote:
Didn't Johnny O'mara win the DesNations on a 125 back in 83 or something like that?
It was 86 and he was 2nd behind Bailey who rode the 500.
resetjet
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resetjet 9/30/2013 6:22pm
9/30/2013 6:22pm
Looking for something hus q there. Lets see frame, ktm 300 xc, plastics, husaberg but white, suspension wp, brake lever ktm, brakes brembo, can't make out the engine.
JB 19
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JB 19 9/30/2013 7:12pm
9/30/2013 7:12pm
Don't know if anyone has said this, but at MXDN the team usually gives the rider on the smaller bike the better gate pick. Probably why the 250's were getting such good starts.
dantheman
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dantheman 9/30/2013 7:20pm
9/30/2013 7:20pm
My question is, what is the point of MX3 in the MXdN races anymore? It's just more 450's!!! Unlike the past where you actually had 125's, 250's and 500's.
sclark309d 9/30/2013 7:28pm
9/30/2013 7:28pm
TheWeapon wrote:
I can't recall who, but there have been a few times where 125s have won motos at the MXdN. Also, the ISDE (which is now on...
I can't recall who, but there have been a few times where 125s have won motos at the MXdN. Also, the ISDE (which is now on - and Geico Honda rider Zach Osborne is having a crack at it) has been won outright on 125s also. I think the MXdN should go (back) to 125cc, 250cc and open. But of course there will always be complaints - I recall an American magazine making a statement along the lines of "Steve Lamson did well for his 3-3 result on one of the only legitimate 125cc bikes"
queen of spodes wrote:
[embed][/embed]
Hard to believe the 86 MXdN was a quarter century ago. wow.
queen of spodes 9/30/2013 8:00pm
9/30/2013 8:00pm
TheWeapon wrote:
Nope - Lamson caught and passed him and pulled away, Tortelli passed him about 10 minutes later (I just found the vid online - shame it's...
Nope - Lamson caught and passed him and pulled away, Tortelli passed him about 10 minutes later (I just found the vid online - shame it's all in Spanish). Still, he had no 'need' to stay in front of them, as the classes were scored separately then.
The video was posted right above yours.

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