Concussions? I have your answer

Deetsmx wrote:

Hate to jump into this but I was assessed trackside by one of these guys (I'll leave the name out) and they were quite confident my...

Hate to jump into this but I was assessed trackside by one of these guys (I'll leave the name out) and they were quite confident my foot wasn't broken (while my boot was on, nonetheless). A surgery later that evening to insert 4 metal pins would prove otherwise.

Deetsmx wrote:

Hate to jump into this but I was assessed trackside by one of these guys (I'll leave the name out) and they were quite confident my...

Hate to jump into this but I was assessed trackside by one of these guys (I'll leave the name out) and they were quite confident my foot wasn't broken (while my boot was on, nonetheless). A surgery later that evening to insert 4 metal pins would prove otherwise.

pilotdude wrote:

Here is a response I made to Eddy over at RacerX in about his interview and remarks: [b]Eddie, I believe you and the rest of the...

Here is a response I made to Eddy over at RacerX in about his interview and remarks:

Eddie, I believe you and the rest of the team performed competently and ethically. However, Zack's crash was far more than a "fall". To not acknowledge that and also compare what happened on Saturday to "cutting a finger" is stretching things badly to make your point.

I think you guys are fighting an uphill battle against opinions based on what a hell of a lot of people saw with their own eyes and they didn't have to be doctors or paramedics to know that crash was a very, very bad deal. Sometimes through the fault of no one, you can find yourself in a battle you can't win.

What I mean by that is, I've read and heard an awful lot of parents who have kids racing and have said, "I would not have let my kid back out on that track, and I don't care WHAT the tests said." And you have to respect their position. On the other hand, I really haven't read or heard too many parent say, "Oh yeah, no problem. I would have let him race again, sure."

Coming on this forum or any other insisting that the right protocols were followed may make a few protocol people happy, but it isn't going to convince many (me included) that Zack should have raced again. And as you know, there are quite a few top riders in the sport who trust and like you guys who are saying the same thing. They were there too, saw it with their own eyes, and have a hell of a lot of experience as riders and fans themselves.

You and the doc and everyone have done nothing wrong. But you are trained to help injured riders, not battle the emotion of "holy shit that kid looked like he just about DIED and now they are letting him RACE...WTF?!"

CamP wrote:

Sounds like my first bad experience with a EMT. He looks at my leg and says, "I don't think it's broken". 16 year old me looks...

Sounds like my first bad experience with a EMT. He looks at my leg and says, "I don't think it's broken". 16 year old me looks at him cockeyed and says "I think it's broken". Spiral fracture tib/fib and 12 weeks in three different casts later...

pilotdude wrote:

Here is a response I made to Eddy over at RacerX in about his interview and remarks: [b]Eddie, I believe you and the rest of the...

Here is a response I made to Eddy over at RacerX in about his interview and remarks:

Eddie, I believe you and the rest of the team performed competently and ethically. However, Zack's crash was far more than a "fall". To not acknowledge that and also compare what happened on Saturday to "cutting a finger" is stretching things badly to make your point.

I think you guys are fighting an uphill battle against opinions based on what a hell of a lot of people saw with their own eyes and they didn't have to be doctors or paramedics to know that crash was a very, very bad deal. Sometimes through the fault of no one, you can find yourself in a battle you can't win.

What I mean by that is, I've read and heard an awful lot of parents who have kids racing and have said, "I would not have let my kid back out on that track, and I don't care WHAT the tests said." And you have to respect their position. On the other hand, I really haven't read or heard too many parent say, "Oh yeah, no problem. I would have let him race again, sure."

Coming on this forum or any other insisting that the right protocols were followed may make a few protocol people happy, but it isn't going to convince many (me included) that Zack should have raced again. And as you know, there are quite a few top riders in the sport who trust and like you guys who are saying the same thing. They were there too, saw it with their own eyes, and have a hell of a lot of experience as riders and fans themselves.

You and the doc and everyone have done nothing wrong. But you are trained to help injured riders, not battle the emotion of "holy shit that kid looked like he just about DIED and now they are letting him RACE...WTF?!"

Eric927 wrote:

It wasn't astrics call in the end it was Bells. Bell is 18 years old also it's not his parents choice if he races or not...

It wasn't astrics call in the end it was Bells. Bell is 18 years old also it's not his parents choice if he races or not. Stop saying this is Bodner and astrics fault it's not. They did the job that they needed to and Bell made the decision he wanted to make.

pilotdude wrote:

Here is a response I made to Eddy over at RacerX in about his interview and remarks: [b]Eddie, I believe you and the rest of the...

Here is a response I made to Eddy over at RacerX in about his interview and remarks:

Eddie, I believe you and the rest of the team performed competently and ethically. However, Zack's crash was far more than a "fall". To not acknowledge that and also compare what happened on Saturday to "cutting a finger" is stretching things badly to make your point.

I think you guys are fighting an uphill battle against opinions based on what a hell of a lot of people saw with their own eyes and they didn't have to be doctors or paramedics to know that crash was a very, very bad deal. Sometimes through the fault of no one, you can find yourself in a battle you can't win.

What I mean by that is, I've read and heard an awful lot of parents who have kids racing and have said, "I would not have let my kid back out on that track, and I don't care WHAT the tests said." And you have to respect their position. On the other hand, I really haven't read or heard too many parent say, "Oh yeah, no problem. I would have let him race again, sure."

Coming on this forum or any other insisting that the right protocols were followed may make a few protocol people happy, but it isn't going to convince many (me included) that Zack should have raced again. And as you know, there are quite a few top riders in the sport who trust and like you guys who are saying the same thing. They were there too, saw it with their own eyes, and have a hell of a lot of experience as riders and fans themselves.

You and the doc and everyone have done nothing wrong. But you are trained to help injured riders, not battle the emotion of "holy shit that kid looked like he just about DIED and now they are letting him RACE...WTF?!"

Eric927 wrote:

It wasn't astrics call in the end it was Bells. Bell is 18 years old also it's not his parents choice if he races or not...

It wasn't astrics call in the end it was Bells. Bell is 18 years old also it's not his parents choice if he races or not. Stop saying this is Bodner and astrics fault it's not. They did the job that they needed to and Bell made the decision he wanted to make.

pilotdude wrote:

"You and the doc and everyone have done nothing wrong." "Sometimes through the fault of no one, you can find yourself in a battle you can't...

"You and the doc and everyone have done nothing wrong."

"Sometimes through the fault of no one, you can find yourself in a battle you can't win."


Reading comprehension. Try it sometime.

CamP wrote:

Sounds like my first bad experience with a EMT. He looks at my leg and says, "I don't think it's broken". 16 year old me looks...

Sounds like my first bad experience with a EMT. He looks at my leg and says, "I don't think it's broken". 16 year old me looks at him cockeyed and says "I think it's broken". Spiral fracture tib/fib and 12 weeks in three different casts later...

vanillaice782 wrote:

Oh BINGO! Another person from the other side of the argument who is pissed because they think they were wronged at some point by someone in...

Oh BINGO! Another person from the other side of the argument who is pissed because they think they were wronged at some point by someone in the medical profession. There is no way of knowing if something is broken until you x ray it. Do you realize that EMT school is only one semester long and does not even come close to covering 1% of the knowledge that a doctor has?

CamP wrote:

Sounds like my first bad experience with a EMT. He looks at my leg and says, "I don't think it's broken". 16 year old me looks...

Sounds like my first bad experience with a EMT. He looks at my leg and says, "I don't think it's broken". 16 year old me looks at him cockeyed and says "I think it's broken". Spiral fracture tib/fib and 12 weeks in three different casts later...

vanillaice782 wrote:

Oh BINGO! Another person from the other side of the argument who is pissed because they think they were wronged at some point by someone in...

Oh BINGO! Another person from the other side of the argument who is pissed because they think they were wronged at some point by someone in the medical profession. There is no way of knowing if something is broken until you x ray it. Do you realize that EMT school is only one semester long and does not even come close to covering 1% of the knowledge that a doctor has?

Deetsmx wrote:

What if the person that wronged me is involved in this discussion? The only point I was trying to make was that these guys do make...

What if the person that wronged me is involved in this discussion? The only point I was trying to make was that these guys do make mistakes and I don't think anyone here thinks they had bad intentions or didn't follow protocol.

CamP wrote:

Sounds like my first bad experience with a EMT. He looks at my leg and says, "I don't think it's broken". 16 year old me looks...

Sounds like my first bad experience with a EMT. He looks at my leg and says, "I don't think it's broken". 16 year old me looks at him cockeyed and says "I think it's broken". Spiral fracture tib/fib and 12 weeks in three different casts later...

vanillaice782 wrote:

Oh BINGO! Another person from the other side of the argument who is pissed because they think they were wronged at some point by someone in...

Oh BINGO! Another person from the other side of the argument who is pissed because they think they were wronged at some point by someone in the medical profession. There is no way of knowing if something is broken until you x ray it. Do you realize that EMT school is only one semester long and does not even come close to covering 1% of the knowledge that a doctor has?

vanillaice782 wrote:

Oh BINGO! Another person from the other side of the argument who is pissed because they think they were wronged at some point by someone in...

Oh BINGO! Another person from the other side of the argument who is pissed because they think they were wronged at some point by someone in the medical profession. There is no way of knowing if something is broken until you x ray it. Do you realize that EMT school is only one semester long and does not even come close to covering 1% of the knowledge that a doctor has?

Deetsmx wrote:

What if the person that wronged me is involved in this discussion? The only point I was trying to make was that these guys do make...

What if the person that wronged me is involved in this discussion? The only point I was trying to make was that these guys do make mistakes and I don't think anyone here thinks they had bad intentions or didn't follow protocol.

vanillaice782 wrote:

Were you really wronged though? There is no way of knowing that a bone is broken until you x ray it. How did the conversation go...

Were you really wronged though? There is no way of knowing that a bone is broken until you x ray it. How did the conversation go? Were you able to walk on it? Why don't you have to take any of the responsibility for it?

Eric927 wrote:

I give up you guys are all right and everybody that helped pick Bell up are wrong and are out to get Bell.

Deetsmx wrote:

What if the person that wronged me is involved in this discussion? The only point I was trying to make was that these guys do make...

What if the person that wronged me is involved in this discussion? The only point I was trying to make was that these guys do make mistakes and I don't think anyone here thinks they had bad intentions or didn't follow protocol.

vanillaice782 wrote:

Were you really wronged though? There is no way of knowing that a bone is broken until you x ray it. How did the conversation go...

Were you really wronged though? There is no way of knowing that a bone is broken until you x ray it. How did the conversation go? Were you able to walk on it? Why don't you have to take any of the responsibility for it?

pilotdude wrote:

Oh. My. God.

vanillaice782 wrote:

Were you really wronged though? There is no way of knowing that a bone is broken until you x ray it. How did the conversation go...

Were you really wronged though? There is no way of knowing that a bone is broken until you x ray it. How did the conversation go? Were you able to walk on it? Why don't you have to take any of the responsibility for it?

pilotdude wrote:

Oh. My. God.

vanillaice782 wrote:

When people make claims like this you have to get all the details behind the scenario. Sorry if you're offended but if he WALKED up to...

When people make claims like this you have to get all the details behind the scenario. Sorry if you're offended but if he WALKED up to one of the doctors and said hey my leg hurts but he didn't take the boot off to let him see it then you can't blame the doctor because the rider is most likely going to say whatever he needs to say to minimize it so he can keep riding. That's why I asked for details. Because you can't decide who was wrong in the situation based on three sentences that he typed about it.

CamP wrote:

As a 16yo, I knew my leg was badly broken and that the EMT was clueless. I didn't need an x-ray to figure out that my...

As a 16yo, I knew my leg was badly broken and that the EMT was clueless. I didn't need an x-ray to figure out that my foot was only connected to my leg by skin, muscle and ligaments because my foot was pointing out at the 3 o'clock position and I'm not web footed. When I broke my arm, I didn't need an x-ray to figure out that my radius and ulna were snapped either. It's pretty obvious when your hand is on backwards.

After 34 years at the track, I've had enough experience with EMT's to determine that their knowledge of medicine is almost nil, and that their standard MO is to "act" like they know what they are doing.

Anyhoo, I've got real work to get back to, so continue the debate without me.

pilotdude wrote:

Oh. My. God.

vanillaice782 wrote:

When people make claims like this you have to get all the details behind the scenario. Sorry if you're offended but if he WALKED up to...

When people make claims like this you have to get all the details behind the scenario. Sorry if you're offended but if he WALKED up to one of the doctors and said hey my leg hurts but he didn't take the boot off to let him see it then you can't blame the doctor because the rider is most likely going to say whatever he needs to say to minimize it so he can keep riding. That's why I asked for details. Because you can't decide who was wrong in the situation based on three sentences that he typed about it.

Deetsmx wrote:

I ran up to him and then did jumping jacks as I got closer so I could see why he thought it wasn't broke. In all...

I ran up to him and then did jumping jacks as I got closer so I could see why he thought it wasn't broke. In all seriousness, they were helpful but also wrong and I was just using it as an example of how they can make mistakes as well, not coming in here to bash them.

CamP wrote:

Sounds like my first bad experience with a EMT. He looks at my leg and says, "I don't think it's broken". 16 year old me looks...

Sounds like my first bad experience with a EMT. He looks at my leg and says, "I don't think it's broken". 16 year old me looks at him cockeyed and says "I think it's broken". Spiral fracture tib/fib and 12 weeks in three different casts later...

vanillaice782 wrote:

Oh BINGO! Another person from the other side of the argument who is pissed because they think they were wronged at some point by someone in...

Oh BINGO! Another person from the other side of the argument who is pissed because they think they were wronged at some point by someone in the medical profession. There is no way of knowing if something is broken until you x ray it. Do you realize that EMT school is only one semester long and does not even come close to covering 1% of the knowledge that a doctor has?

CamP wrote:

As a 16yo, I knew my leg was badly broken and that the EMT was clueless. I didn't need an x-ray to figure out that my...

As a 16yo, I knew my leg was badly broken and that the EMT was clueless. I didn't need an x-ray to figure out that my foot was only connected to my leg by skin, muscle and ligaments because my foot was pointing out at the 3 o'clock position and I'm not web footed. When I broke my arm, I didn't need an x-ray to figure out that my radius and ulna were snapped either. It's pretty obvious when your hand is on backwards.

After 34 years at the track, I've had enough experience with EMT's to determine that their knowledge of medicine is almost nil, and that their standard MO is to "act" like they know what they are doing.

Anyhoo, I've got real work to get back to, so continue the debate without me.

Eric927 wrote:

I give up you guys are all right and everybody that helped pick Bell up are wrong and are out to get Bell.

pilotdude wrote:

Yep that's pretty much exactly what everyone's been saying for 3 plus days alright.

brocster wrote:

So you are comparing the Asterisk Medical Crew to an EMT??? Holy shitballs of america! Dear Peelout, As things are not as they seem please enlighten...

So you are comparing the Asterisk Medical Crew to an EMT???

Holy shitballs of america!

Dear Peelout, As things are not as they seem please enlighten this thread to the photo of the "girl" in the window...

IceMan446 wrote:

Its called trusting your training. They are highly trained, can mistakes still happen? Yes but they have seen a whole hell of a lot more incidents...

Its called trusting your training. They are highly trained, can mistakes still happen? Yes but they have seen a whole hell of a lot more incidents then anyone else on this board.

You err on the side of caution. Bell said he was awake the entire time, you have to believe him. He recounted what happened and was fine according to Bodnar.

Just because YOU think he shouldn't have raced doesn't mean he does, he is an adult and if he passed the protocols, it is HIS choice to race.

And to Camp and that Diesel dude, you guys should start up your own concussion testing agency. Base the business from your homes, work on saturday nights only and use Speed TV replays for the evaluation. You guys have this shit mastered already!!!!

LoudLove wrote:

"What people need to understand is that everyone reacts differently to the various ways the brain can receive trauma." Per this statement, Is it possible that...

"What people need to understand is that everyone reacts differently to the various ways the brain can receive trauma."

Per this statement, Is it possible that Zach Bell was able to immediately respond to questions after being unconscious? Please keep in mind that the point of this debate is not to question Asterisk's professionalism or credibility; it's to find a plausible reason (other than unconsciousness) why a rider, who just sustained a substantial blow to the head, would lie on the track motionless for 10+ seconds.

You would be hard pressed to find an SX fan who does not admire and appreciate the work of Dr. Bodnar and his crew. We also understand that you and your AMMC teammates are on the cutting edge of on-site medical technology and procedures. What most people do not understand are the dynamics between Asterisk and the riders, teams, and promoters.

The unknown variable in this equation remains the sequence of events that transpired between the AMMC, Bell, and his team. Procedures are outlined above, but legal hurdles and privacy standards (thankfully) prevent anyone from releasing the details. People criticizing Asterisk' effort and diagnosis do so with zero personal knowledge of the night's events. However, it's not hard to imagine Doc Bodnar's trepidation in releasing Zach after watching a replay of his accident.

Bell is a young man with tremendous energy and experience. Is it possible that Zach could have suffered a concussion AND passed the AMMC's evaluation? The two are not mutually exclusive.

brocster wrote:

So you are comparing the Asterisk Medical Crew to an EMT??? Holy shitballs of america! Dear Peelout, As things are not as they seem please enlighten...

So you are comparing the Asterisk Medical Crew to an EMT???

Holy shitballs of america!

Dear Peelout, As things are not as they seem please enlighten this thread to the photo of the "girl" in the window...

LoudLove wrote:

"What people need to understand is that everyone reacts differently to the various ways the brain can receive trauma." Per this statement, Is it possible that...

"What people need to understand is that everyone reacts differently to the various ways the brain can receive trauma."

Per this statement, Is it possible that Zach Bell was able to immediately respond to questions after being unconscious? Please keep in mind that the point of this debate is not to question Asterisk's professionalism or credibility; it's to find a plausible reason (other than unconsciousness) why a rider, who just sustained a substantial blow to the head, would lie on the track motionless for 10+ seconds.

You would be hard pressed to find an SX fan who does not admire and appreciate the work of Dr. Bodnar and his crew. We also understand that you and your AMMC teammates are on the cutting edge of on-site medical technology and procedures. What most people do not understand are the dynamics between Asterisk and the riders, teams, and promoters.

The unknown variable in this equation remains the sequence of events that transpired between the AMMC, Bell, and his team. Procedures are outlined above, but legal hurdles and privacy standards (thankfully) prevent anyone from releasing the details. People criticizing Asterisk' effort and diagnosis do so with zero personal knowledge of the night's events. However, it's not hard to imagine Doc Bodnar's trepidation in releasing Zach after watching a replay of his accident.

Bell is a young man with tremendous energy and experience. Is it possible that Zach could have suffered a concussion AND passed the AMMC's evaluation? The two are not mutually exclusive.

srellis wrote:

My son crashed at an Arenacross last year. He had a seizure immediately upon hitting the ground. He came to, walked to his pits, knew where...

My son crashed at an Arenacross last year. He had a seizure immediately upon hitting the ground. He came to, walked to his pits, knew where he was, what date it was, his birthday, all the normal questions. Since he had a seizure, the EMT's INSISTED he go to the ambulance anyway. He got in and was arguing with them that he was fine. He had another seizure in the ambulance and quit breathing, twice. Spent a week in the hospital, had a brain bleed that was resolved on it's own and has no memory of the two weeks after the crash. Had to have PT for three weeks as he had motor skill issues after leaving the hospital. I am glad the EMT's would not let him go off on his own.