The Psychology of Atheism

UpTiTe 2/7/2013 9:42am
2/7/2013 9:42am
Makes sense, I know 4 aithiest and all had problems with theur dads. One had his dad take off at an early age, another had his dad beat him and his mom until he left, another had his dad die of cancer when he was 6 and the other absolutly hated his dad and never gave a reason why.
gabrielmalinois 2/7/2013 9:53am
2/7/2013 9:53am
gabrielmalinois wrote:
It is not just an opinion in that he is a Psychologist applying psychoanalysis to the beliefs of atheists. This is the same as Freud's theories...
It is not just an opinion in that he is a Psychologist applying psychoanalysis to the beliefs of atheists. This is the same as Freud's theories in regards to belief in God. His paper is primarily for those who understand and accept these sorts of psychological theories.
jtomasik wrote:
To make some claim that the father relationship is relevant to atheism, he'd need to provide a controlled study showing that the significant majority of atheists...
To make some claim that the father relationship is relevant to atheism, he'd need to provide a controlled study showing that the significant majority of atheists had issues with their father. Data points don't mean shit, if you're trying to say that this association really means something useful.


Show me real data that proves it's something significant.
Does Freud and other Psychologists need to do the same? That is what makes a theory a theory isn't it? I guess if you do not believe in God or Psychology than this whole subject shouldn't hold water for you.
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jtomasik 2/7/2013 9:56am
2/7/2013 9:56am
gabrielmalinois wrote:
Does Freud and other Psychologists need to do the same? That is what makes a theory a theory isn't it? I guess if you do not...
Does Freud and other Psychologists need to do the same? That is what makes a theory a theory isn't it? I guess if you do not believe in God or Psychology than this whole subject shouldn't hold water for you.
So big deal if some psychologists found a correlation in a few data points. It doesn't mean that's root cause for most high-thinking atheists. I'd bet you could draw a similar correlation with dysfunctional paternal or maternal relationships in the religious, too. If the number's not significant, who the fuck cares? It isn't my situation. It isn't the situation of several other atheists on this board.

It's lame.
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jtomasik 2/7/2013 9:58am
2/7/2013 9:58am
gabrielmalinois wrote:
Does Freud and other Psychologists need to do the same? That is what makes a theory a theory isn't it? I guess if you do not...
Does Freud and other Psychologists need to do the same? That is what makes a theory a theory isn't it? I guess if you do not believe in God or Psychology than this whole subject shouldn't hold water for you.
Oh, I believe in psychology, but a theory is only good to me if it's scientific theory, which means it needs to be able to accurately predict outcomes. Without the data to support some significant number, it doesn't do that.

Sorry, had to double post because in some threads I can't edit my posts and add info, but I can only edit the thread title, or so it appears. I've been cool enough not to do that to this thread, otherwise I would've entitled it, "Some moronic psychologist needs classes in statistics." Wink

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gabrielmalinois 2/7/2013 10:46am
2/7/2013 10:46am
gabrielmalinois wrote:
Does Freud and other Psychologists need to do the same? That is what makes a theory a theory isn't it? I guess if you do not...
Does Freud and other Psychologists need to do the same? That is what makes a theory a theory isn't it? I guess if you do not believe in God or Psychology than this whole subject shouldn't hold water for you.
jtomasik wrote:
Oh, I believe in psychology, but a theory is only good to me if it's scientific theory, which means it needs to be able to accurately...
Oh, I believe in psychology, but a theory is only good to me if it's scientific theory, which means it needs to be able to accurately predict outcomes. Without the data to support some significant number, it doesn't do that.

Sorry, had to double post because in some threads I can't edit my posts and add info, but I can only edit the thread title, or so it appears. I've been cool enough not to do that to this thread, otherwise I would've entitled it, "Some moronic psychologist needs classes in statistics." Wink
That is the nature of a lot of psychology though, Freud doesn't use statistics but most in the field of psychology accept his theories to a large degree. Vitz didn't create a whole new psychological theory he simply applied Freud's theories on him and other prominent atheists. Would you say Freud is "Some moronic psychologist needs classes in statistics"? Are you as dismissive of Freud's theory that belief in God is untrustworthy because of its psychological origin. That is, God is a projection of our own intense, unconscious desires; He is a wish fulfillment derived from childish needs for protection and security?
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Racer92 2/7/2013 11:01am
2/7/2013 11:01am
Freud was an old perv and his approach, while cathartic, is psycho-hokum. . The approach of Albert Ellis and William Glasser are much more productive/useful.
gabrielmalinois 2/7/2013 11:32am
2/7/2013 11:32am Edited Date/Time 2/7/2013 11:33am
Racer92 wrote:
Freud was an old perv and his approach, while cathartic, is psycho-hokum. . The approach of Albert Ellis and William Glasser are much more productive/useful.
Funny you bring up Ellis, he was mentioned in the piece I read.

Dr. Vitz was on a panel with him and outlined his theory of the defective father to him. Ellis said the theory didn't fit him because he got along with his father. In casual conversation, a friend told Vitz that the theory "fits Ellis perfectly." According to a biography of Ellis, his father abandoned the family and his weak mother was unable to support, so Ellis and his brother ended up providing everyhting for themselves.
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Rooster 2/7/2013 2:40pm
2/7/2013 2:40pm
You guys are sure doing a lot of arguing over a book review from some Australian Christian blog.

I wonder if Gabby has read the actual book or is just enamored over how much he agrees with the review the book has gotten.

I have a suspicion that if we decided to open the discussion up to include the views of those Vitz was studying (Voltaire, Freud, etc) and their views on religion, that his interest in the discussion would evaporate quickly.
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JW381 2/7/2013 2:45pm
2/7/2013 2:45pm
My relationship with my dad is fantastic, and I am empathetic, and even envious, of those who have a real and strong faith. Not necessarily bible thumpers and religious zealots, but people who truly feel they have someone with them at all times and will be joined with after death.

Whereas I, coming to my conclusion by pure observance and reason, feel alone and scared of death. I'm not angry at religion, and my dad is a great human being, so there's my contribution to all of this.
gabrielmalinois 2/7/2013 2:59pm
2/7/2013 2:59pm Edited Date/Time 2/7/2013 3:00pm
Rooster wrote:
You guys are sure doing a lot of arguing over a book review from some Australian Christian blog. I wonder if Gabby has read the actual...
You guys are sure doing a lot of arguing over a book review from some Australian Christian blog.

I wonder if Gabby has read the actual book or is just enamored over how much he agrees with the review the book has gotten.

I have a suspicion that if we decided to open the discussion up to include the views of those Vitz was studying (Voltaire, Freud, etc) and their views on religion, that his interest in the discussion would evaporate quickly.
I haven't read the book I read the excerpt from a presentation he gave on the paper I also posted. That is how these guys make their dough, they write a paper, put it in a journal, make presentations on it and if it catches some traction they write a book. You can talk about who ever's views you want, I have already tried to talk about Freud's. Do you think Freud's views on those who believe are accurate?
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jtomasik 2/7/2013 3:07pm
2/7/2013 3:07pm
Rooster wrote:
You guys are sure doing a lot of arguing over a book review from some Australian Christian blog. I wonder if Gabby has read the actual...
You guys are sure doing a lot of arguing over a book review from some Australian Christian blog.

I wonder if Gabby has read the actual book or is just enamored over how much he agrees with the review the book has gotten.

I have a suspicion that if we decided to open the discussion up to include the views of those Vitz was studying (Voltaire, Freud, etc) and their views on religion, that his interest in the discussion would evaporate quickly.
"Rooster wrote: You guys are sure doing a lot of arguing over a book review from some Australian Christian blog...."

Uh, duh. We're Vitards.
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txmxer 2/7/2013 3:08pm
2/7/2013 3:08pm
JW381 wrote:
My relationship with my dad is fantastic, and I am empathetic, and even envious, of those who have a real and strong faith. Not necessarily bible...
My relationship with my dad is fantastic, and I am empathetic, and even envious, of those who have a real and strong faith. Not necessarily bible thumpers and religious zealots, but people who truly feel they have someone with them at all times and will be joined with after death.

Whereas I, coming to my conclusion by pure observance and reason, feel alone and scared of death. I'm not angry at religion, and my dad is a great human being, so there's my contribution to all of this.
What's funny is the people that have that strong faith are comfortable with it. They don't have to push it on others...or post some bullshit psych story to boost their ego and their faith.
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jtomasik 2/7/2013 3:09pm
2/7/2013 3:09pm
gabrielmalinois wrote:
That is the nature of a lot of psychology though, Freud doesn't use statistics but most in the field of psychology accept his theories to a...
That is the nature of a lot of psychology though, Freud doesn't use statistics but most in the field of psychology accept his theories to a large degree. Vitz didn't create a whole new psychological theory he simply applied Freud's theories on him and other prominent atheists. Would you say Freud is "Some moronic psychologist needs classes in statistics"? Are you as dismissive of Freud's theory that belief in God is untrustworthy because of its psychological origin. That is, God is a projection of our own intense, unconscious desires; He is a wish fulfillment derived from childish needs for protection and security?
Psychologists are in the same class of dependability I witness in lawyers and the weathermen, is the way I see it. They're probably great at giving each other hand-jobs within their profession, I don't doubt.

There ya' have it.
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txmxer 2/7/2013 3:16pm
2/7/2013 3:16pm
gabrielmalinois wrote:
Does Freud and other Psychologists need to do the same? That is what makes a theory a theory isn't it? I guess if you do not...
Does Freud and other Psychologists need to do the same? That is what makes a theory a theory isn't it? I guess if you do not believe in God or Psychology than this whole subject shouldn't hold water for you.
jtomasik wrote:
Oh, I believe in psychology, but a theory is only good to me if it's scientific theory, which means it needs to be able to accurately...
Oh, I believe in psychology, but a theory is only good to me if it's scientific theory, which means it needs to be able to accurately predict outcomes. Without the data to support some significant number, it doesn't do that.

Sorry, had to double post because in some threads I can't edit my posts and add info, but I can only edit the thread title, or so it appears. I've been cool enough not to do that to this thread, otherwise I would've entitled it, "Some moronic psychologist needs classes in statistics." Wink
gabrielmalinois wrote:
That is the nature of a lot of psychology though, Freud doesn't use statistics but most in the field of psychology accept his theories to a...
That is the nature of a lot of psychology though, Freud doesn't use statistics but most in the field of psychology accept his theories to a large degree. Vitz didn't create a whole new psychological theory he simply applied Freud's theories on him and other prominent atheists. Would you say Freud is "Some moronic psychologist needs classes in statistics"? Are you as dismissive of Freud's theory that belief in God is untrustworthy because of its psychological origin. That is, God is a projection of our own intense, unconscious desires; He is a wish fulfillment derived from childish needs for protection and security?
First off a theory has to have some statistical backing, otherwise it is only a hypothesis.

Second, psychology uses a shitload of statistics. May or may fall into the bullshit realm of making numbers say what you want, but there is a tremendous amount of statistics that go into modern psychology.

Finally, belief in god, gods, or God are psychological in nature. A thought process underlies the choice to believe or not. I wouldn't claim it's wish fulfillment, but it is a reflection of your mental state and fulfills a need in certain people. That's not a knock on people of faith, it's just a fact that we are needs based people. Look at the politics here. Almost everyone here chooses their politics based on what they believe benefits them the most personally.
gabrielmalinois 2/7/2013 3:18pm
2/7/2013 3:18pm
JW381 wrote:
My relationship with my dad is fantastic, and I am empathetic, and even envious, of those who have a real and strong faith. Not necessarily bible...
My relationship with my dad is fantastic, and I am empathetic, and even envious, of those who have a real and strong faith. Not necessarily bible thumpers and religious zealots, but people who truly feel they have someone with them at all times and will be joined with after death.

Whereas I, coming to my conclusion by pure observance and reason, feel alone and scared of death. I'm not angry at religion, and my dad is a great human being, so there's my contribution to all of this.
txmxer wrote:
What's funny is the people that have that strong faith are comfortable with it. They don't have to push it on others...or post some bullshit psych...
What's funny is the people that have that strong faith are comfortable with it. They don't have to push it on others...or post some bullshit psych story to boost their ego and their faith.
Honestly, I don't get the hostility and I am certainly not trying boost my ego. I just thought it was an interesting read I came across. I am very surprised so many people took it negatively. I figured that those who do not believe in God would be more accepting of psychological subject matter because something needs to be the root of faith. If psychology doesn't play a part in whether one believes or not, then how do you explain it? The answer can't be intelligence, rationality and lack of evidence because both intelligent and rational people who observe the same evidence fall on both sides of the fence.
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jtomasik 2/7/2013 3:30pm
2/7/2013 3:30pm
gabrielmalinois wrote:
Honestly, I don't get the hostility and I am certainly not trying boost my ego. I just thought it was an interesting read I came across...
Honestly, I don't get the hostility and I am certainly not trying boost my ego. I just thought it was an interesting read I came across. I am very surprised so many people took it negatively. I figured that those who do not believe in God would be more accepting of psychological subject matter because something needs to be the root of faith. If psychology doesn't play a part in whether one believes or not, then how do you explain it? The answer can't be intelligence, rationality and lack of evidence because both intelligent and rational people who observe the same evidence fall on both sides of the fence.
It's one guy's opinion as explained by his supposed science. Prove it's viable with statistics, then we'll talk. Otherwise, it's, like txmxer says, a hypothesis, and nothing more.
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chuck317 2/7/2013 3:31pm
2/7/2013 3:31pm
72kiteboarder wrote:
You know what even more striking is the relationship between religion and poor education.
that is so true. some of the poorest and uneducated people i know give everything they have to some rinky dink church. here there are churches in strip malls sometimes two in the same one.
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Choppy 2/7/2013 3:52pm
2/7/2013 3:52pm Edited Date/Time 2/7/2013 3:54pm
gabrielmalinois wrote:
Does Freud and other Psychologists need to do the same? That is what makes a theory a theory isn't it? I guess if you do not...
Does Freud and other Psychologists need to do the same? That is what makes a theory a theory isn't it? I guess if you do not believe in God or Psychology than this whole subject shouldn't hold water for you.
jtomasik wrote:
Oh, I believe in psychology, but a theory is only good to me if it's scientific theory, which means it needs to be able to accurately...
Oh, I believe in psychology, but a theory is only good to me if it's scientific theory, which means it needs to be able to accurately predict outcomes. Without the data to support some significant number, it doesn't do that.

Sorry, had to double post because in some threads I can't edit my posts and add info, but I can only edit the thread title, or so it appears. I've been cool enough not to do that to this thread, otherwise I would've entitled it, "Some moronic psychologist needs classes in statistics." Wink
gabrielmalinois wrote:
That is the nature of a lot of psychology though, Freud doesn't use statistics but most in the field of psychology accept his theories to a...
That is the nature of a lot of psychology though, Freud doesn't use statistics but most in the field of psychology accept his theories to a large degree. Vitz didn't create a whole new psychological theory he simply applied Freud's theories on him and other prominent atheists. Would you say Freud is "Some moronic psychologist needs classes in statistics"? Are you as dismissive of Freud's theory that belief in God is untrustworthy because of its psychological origin. That is, God is a projection of our own intense, unconscious desires; He is a wish fulfillment derived from childish needs for protection and security?
What exactly do we still use of Freuds in psychology that hasn't been changed?

Modern psychology has made Freud obsolete. Pretty much nothing of freud's is still used, however he changed the way the world viewed psychology and the views were revolutionary at the time, but most are meaningless today.



More or less he's only taught because he got the ball rolling in the field.

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Choppy 2/7/2013 4:08pm
2/7/2013 4:08pm Edited Date/Time 2/7/2013 4:12pm
Actually other than id, ego and superego/unconscious mind of human motivation, I can't really think of much at the moment. (maybe I'm just tired) Heck even Freud's psychoanalytic psychotherapy is a bit obsolete due to cognitive psychology.
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Choppy 2/7/2013 4:17pm
2/7/2013 4:17pm Edited Date/Time 2/7/2013 4:20pm
gabrielmalinois wrote:
Honestly, I don't get the hostility and I am certainly not trying boost my ego. I just thought it was an interesting read I came across...
Honestly, I don't get the hostility and I am certainly not trying boost my ego. I just thought it was an interesting read I came across. I am very surprised so many people took it negatively. I figured that those who do not believe in God would be more accepting of psychological subject matter because something needs to be the root of faith. If psychology doesn't play a part in whether one believes or not, then how do you explain it? The answer can't be intelligence, rationality and lack of evidence because both intelligent and rational people who observe the same evidence fall on both sides of the fence.
jtomasik wrote:
It's one guy's opinion as explained by his supposed science. Prove it's viable with statistics, then we'll talk. Otherwise, it's, like txmxer says, a hypothesis, and...
It's one guy's opinion as explained by his supposed science. Prove it's viable with statistics, then we'll talk. Otherwise, it's, like txmxer says, a hypothesis, and nothing more.
It wouldn't even be considered a hypothesis in science for one because the scientific method can't test it. At least not from what I've seen.
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yamadogyz 2/7/2013 4:59pm
2/7/2013 4:59pm
I signed myself on to Catholicism, help me god is the last thing to run my mind before I hit the ground.
gabrielmalinois 2/7/2013 5:39pm
2/7/2013 5:39pm
jtomasik wrote:
Oh, I believe in psychology, but a theory is only good to me if it's scientific theory, which means it needs to be able to accurately...
Oh, I believe in psychology, but a theory is only good to me if it's scientific theory, which means it needs to be able to accurately predict outcomes. Without the data to support some significant number, it doesn't do that.

Sorry, had to double post because in some threads I can't edit my posts and add info, but I can only edit the thread title, or so it appears. I've been cool enough not to do that to this thread, otherwise I would've entitled it, "Some moronic psychologist needs classes in statistics." Wink
gabrielmalinois wrote:
That is the nature of a lot of psychology though, Freud doesn't use statistics but most in the field of psychology accept his theories to a...
That is the nature of a lot of psychology though, Freud doesn't use statistics but most in the field of psychology accept his theories to a large degree. Vitz didn't create a whole new psychological theory he simply applied Freud's theories on him and other prominent atheists. Would you say Freud is "Some moronic psychologist needs classes in statistics"? Are you as dismissive of Freud's theory that belief in God is untrustworthy because of its psychological origin. That is, God is a projection of our own intense, unconscious desires; He is a wish fulfillment derived from childish needs for protection and security?
Choppy wrote:
What exactly do we still use of Freuds in psychology that hasn't been changed? Modern psychology has made Freud obsolete. Pretty much nothing of freud's is...
What exactly do we still use of Freuds in psychology that hasn't been changed?

Modern psychology has made Freud obsolete. Pretty much nothing of freud's is still used, however he changed the way the world viewed psychology and the views were revolutionary at the time, but most are meaningless today.



More or less he's only taught because he got the ball rolling in the field.
I have no idea, I am not really up to speed on the particulars of psychology. What do you think about Freud's ideas here concerning belief in God and Vitz's concerning atheists?
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Rooster 2/7/2013 6:34pm
2/7/2013 6:34pm
Do you think Freud's views on those who believe are accurate?


I think Freud was a drug addict and have no idea about his views on why people believe. Pretty much all I know about Freud and his teachings were that he figured everybody wanted to fuck their moms, which frankly I find pretty disgusting.

I arrived at my viewpoint on religion without any external prodding or guidance. I believe what I do, because that's where my thought process brought me to. Since I have no religious beliefs I honestly don't spend any time considering why other believe what they do. Your reason to believe what you do about god is of zero importance to me.

BTW, me and my dad get along great. We were partners in business for nearly 20 years before he retired and he's always, without question, been there to support me in anything I do.
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Choppy 2/7/2013 6:48pm
2/7/2013 6:48pm Edited Date/Time 2/7/2013 6:51pm
gabrielmalinois wrote:
I have no idea, I am not really up to speed on the particulars of psychology. What do you think about Freud's ideas here concerning belief...
I have no idea, I am not really up to speed on the particulars of psychology. What do you think about Freud's ideas here concerning belief in God and Vitz's concerning atheists?
Although I am very religious myself a bit of research on anyone's half or knowledge in the field of psychology disproves almost everything, because what they've decided to quote is ungodly old research.

The Theory of ‘Defective Father, which is at it's best a hypothesis has been tested and no relatinship found. However in one of the studies done they did decide that more research could prove that as a minority group atheists could be a target of tons of social stigmas etc.

Freud is an interesting character to study and would make an interesting movie. He was one of the leading advocates for cocaine being a cure-all and one of the major "patients" he used to test the drug on was himself.

As I've stated modern psychology has made Freud's ideas for the most part obsolete. They mainly teach Freud in early psychology classes because he was the forefather of psychology. Not because his ideas necessarily hold, although a few weirdos try and hold on to them.
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Racer92 2/7/2013 7:12pm
2/7/2013 7:12pm
Choppy wrote:
Actually other than id, ego and superego/unconscious mind of human motivation, I can't really think of much at the moment. (maybe I'm just tired) Heck even...
Actually other than id, ego and superego/unconscious mind of human motivation, I can't really think of much at the moment. (maybe I'm just tired) Heck even Freud's psychoanalytic psychotherapy is a bit obsolete due to cognitive psychology.
Bingo. Well, with the exception that I think Freuds work was nonsense/obsolete from day one. You can wallow around in the past all day long but until you address the here and now and take responsibility for your unproductive and flawed thinking, you are going nowhere. Cognitive (or reality/rational) therapy works.
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jtomasik 2/7/2013 8:24pm
2/7/2013 8:24pm
Gabby, just curious....at what point will you cave and admit the bible fails?
gabrielmalinois 2/8/2013 8:57am
2/8/2013 8:57am
jtomasik wrote:
Gabby, just curious....at what point will you cave and admit the bible fails?
What does my view of the Bible have to do with anything?
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JJO741 2/8/2013 10:33am
2/8/2013 10:33am
My relationship with Christ is personal. I've never understood the lengths atheists and people of religion go to, to constantly attack someone for their beliefs. You are who you are and believe what you believe. I find it funny how so many of you despise religion and claim it doesn't affect you in any way, but the second the word "religion" is posted you can't help yourselves. You just have to attack it and critique people to make yourself feel better. Same philosophy applies with people who "spread the word of God" (most often times than not, they aren't spreading God's word, but their own) to feel better about themselves.
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426Hemi 2/8/2013 10:39am
2/8/2013 10:39am
Looking for a psychological reason why someone does not believe in religion is inferring that something is inherently wrong with their thinking.

You believe what you want to believe, and let the next person believe in what they want to believe.
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flarider 2/8/2013 10:46am
2/8/2013 10:46am
Imagine Gabby's outrage if someone made the claim that religious people are religious because they're weren't properly breast-fed and therefore have a negative relationship with their mother...

THE OUTRAGE!

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