Would you fix this?

JustMX
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5/14/2012 1:19pm
You guys are giving him a hard time about fixing it and selling it?

Hell, buying any aluminum framed bike that has been ridden hard is an iffy proposition and is an as-is sale.

I guess all you guys that are acting so righteous lecture everybody that has ever bought a bike from you on metal fatigue and the disadvatages of aluminum compared to various steel options.

Do you tell them how you might not have been as careful as you should have been about cleaning the air filter so you won't feel guilty if it locks up in the air and causes the same kind of injuries you are forecasting if a repaired frame lets go?

Do you replace the throttle cable in case it is frayed for the same reason?
layinbody31
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Cedar Lake, IN US
5/14/2012 1:25pm
What I want to know is what the bike you landed on looks like after the crash!
RonSkj
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Fantasy
5/14/2012 1:51pm
JustMX wrote:
You guys are giving him a hard time about fixing it and selling it? Hell, buying any aluminum framed bike that has been ridden hard is...
You guys are giving him a hard time about fixing it and selling it?

Hell, buying any aluminum framed bike that has been ridden hard is an iffy proposition and is an as-is sale.

I guess all you guys that are acting so righteous lecture everybody that has ever bought a bike from you on metal fatigue and the disadvatages of aluminum compared to various steel options.

Do you tell them how you might not have been as careful as you should have been about cleaning the air filter so you won't feel guilty if it locks up in the air and causes the same kind of injuries you are forecasting if a repaired frame lets go?

Do you replace the throttle cable in case it is frayed for the same reason?
Now this is just stupid..

Comparing Not knowing and normal wear, to this thread is.. well, Fucking Stupid!!

The Shop

newmann
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5/14/2012 2:08pm
Couple of observations from the sidelines:

If that 5 sided extruded frame rail took that severe of an impact, are we to believe that there is no secondary damage at any other point on the frame?

That rail is damaged to the point that it needs to be replaced. IF, and that is a big if, there was a 5 sided extrusion available to replace that one with, isn't it inserted into the components it's mated to before welding? I doubt these components are just butt welded together. How would you fit it into position to weld?

This is a fourth (or fifth) generation aluminum frame, with each version being refined for better flex and rigidity characteristics. Does anyone realistically think that frame will ever be as it was before being damaged? It may not be a significant "issue", but we all know the answer. To take it to the next level by adding gusseting, well you'll probably end up with a 1997 CR250 frame and we all know how that worked out.

If it was welded, does it need to be annealed, fixtured, welded and then re- heat treated? Or were they ever heat treated in the first place?

My personal view is that I would replace the frame if I planned on keeping it and riding it. Find one on Ebay with a title and rebuild it. If I was selling the bike, I would sell it as is and let the new purchaser assume all responsibility associated with it. Not sure how much money you could get by parting the bike out on ebay and just go buy a new one.....

I would not cobb it back together and sell it.
KTMLew
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Raleigh, NC US
5/14/2012 2:18pm
I would ask the real experts at Service Honda. They might even give you some credit for an exchange?
KTMLew
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5/14/2012 2:21pm
newmann wrote:
Couple of observations from the sidelines: If that 5 sided extruded frame rail took that severe of an impact, are we to believe that there is...
Couple of observations from the sidelines:

If that 5 sided extruded frame rail took that severe of an impact, are we to believe that there is no secondary damage at any other point on the frame?

That rail is damaged to the point that it needs to be replaced. IF, and that is a big if, there was a 5 sided extrusion available to replace that one with, isn't it inserted into the components it's mated to before welding? I doubt these components are just butt welded together. How would you fit it into position to weld?

This is a fourth (or fifth) generation aluminum frame, with each version being refined for better flex and rigidity characteristics. Does anyone realistically think that frame will ever be as it was before being damaged? It may not be a significant "issue", but we all know the answer. To take it to the next level by adding gusseting, well you'll probably end up with a 1997 CR250 frame and we all know how that worked out.

If it was welded, does it need to be annealed, fixtured, welded and then re- heat treated? Or were they ever heat treated in the first place?

My personal view is that I would replace the frame if I planned on keeping it and riding it. Find one on Ebay with a title and rebuild it. If I was selling the bike, I would sell it as is and let the new purchaser assume all responsibility associated with it. Not sure how much money you could get by parting the bike out on ebay and just go buy a new one.....

I would not cobb it back together and sell it.
Agree 100%. Only shop I would trust to do any repair is Servuce Honda and I bet they say no.
dirthead1
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5/14/2012 2:29pm
That area of the frame is non-structural. Fix it and ride it. It would last forever if you didn't fix it anyway....
424
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5/14/2012 2:34pm
Ok to those that asked. The crash was not really that fast. It's really a fairly short table coming out of a corner at top of a hill, third gear, but a real steep face launch that throws you way up. Blind jump that you rely on a flagger kind of thing. Well the flagger was a bit sub par. My kid (B rider) hit the jump and found a bike laying in the track, the rider was already on the side of the track when he took off. He definitely hit the foot peg. Cases are ok!!!
The other bike? Not so sure. I never looked at it. I was caught up seeing if my son was ok. Then when he left to jump on the flagger, the inner battle occurred. Should I stop him or encourage him. I choose the later and don't feel bad about. I saw the little bitch later in the day texting or checking Facebook on her phone instead of watching the track. Anyway at that point I had not even noticed the frame damage. I first thought just a set of bars and a lever. They did have to push the other bike out as it never would go in neutral.
I know what I thought when I first saw it. It needs a frame. I was surprised at the reactions at the track. So I thought I would ask "would you fix this if it were yours?". Did not mean to stir up a storm, it's not like we're talking about the best suspension tuners.
With all things considered I'm going with a new frame.
Sure it's bad, but at least he did not drop a valve.
dirthead1
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5/14/2012 2:48pm
Seriously, you could cut this part of the frame out and it would still be the same structure with the engine correctly installed and the bolts torqued.
mx5471
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5/14/2012 2:50pm Edited Date/Time 5/14/2012 3:15pm
jeffro503. You need to find some sweet mama that will let you in. You got a lot of anger there. But, I stand by what I said. That frame is junk. Would you send your kid over a 130 foot jump on it? You're wrong on this one. And dirthead1, you just said the stupidest thing I ever read on a message board.
JB 19
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5/14/2012 3:10pm
One big problem with fixing it is that when you go to sell the bike it will take the right person to be willing to buy it after a repair.......and thats assuming its done right. The more I think about it, I'd probably look around for a part out and see if you could find a replacement for 500$ or so.

A good fab guy would likely charge a minimum of 300$ to fix that frame if he did everything by the book including using the right material for the fix and the post weld heat treating.

Bottom line is you're screwed either way. It happens.
Kbach
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So Cal, CA US
5/14/2012 4:20pm
Bob454 wrote:
Finally someone with a bit of sense. That frame can be repaired easily by an experienced welder/fab guy. If/when you have it welded I would bolt...
Finally someone with a bit of sense. That frame can be repaired easily by an experienced welder/fab guy. If/when you have it welded I would bolt your motor in the cradle to make sure it does not "pull" the mounts out of alignment. A welder will section then gusset that and make it stronger than ever. You guys need to do a bit of fab work before you go spredding your retarded opinions around. Take it to a shop and they will be glad to fix it.

For the guy who says that drilling a tiny hole in the frame will change the handling of the bike.....get real dude, you would never feel a difference. I never knew this place could be so clueless.
Actually it's true. A good development or test rider can feel extremely small changes to a frame. Depending on where the hole is, it could change the flex characteristics and feeling of the frame. Not saying that it will or will not affect it negatively, but it will have an affect a rider could feel.

And before I'm lumped into the group of one of the "clueless" ones on the board, I've been doing development testing for one of the manufacturers for the last 14 years or so, and yes I can feel a hole drilled in a frame somewhere.
mx5471
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5/14/2012 5:06pm
I have no reason to doubt you Kbach. After 14 years as a professional, you gotta know more than anyone of us. So, what's your opinion. Fix it, or replace it?
jeffro503
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5/14/2012 7:24pm
mx5471 wrote:
jeffro503. You need to find some sweet mama that will let you in. You got a lot of anger there. But, I stand by what I...
jeffro503. You need to find some sweet mama that will let you in. You got a lot of anger there. But, I stand by what I said. That frame is junk. Would you send your kid over a 130 foot jump on it? You're wrong on this one. And dirthead1, you just said the stupidest thing I ever read on a message board.
Nah man....no anger here....and it's all cool with you , MxSkillz and the others that disagreed with me. I "think" it could be fixed and rid-able , but then again I see your point and where you are coming from. Spending $300.00 - $400.00 for a fix.....or just saying screw it and getting a new frame for $800.00 - $1000.00.....I myself would probably go for the latter on this.

There seems to be guys on both sides of the fence here on this subject. BUT....it seems to of been resolved as the OP mentioned he was just going to get a new frame.

Were all good.
mx5471
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5/14/2012 8:22pm
jeffro503. That's cool. I have my kid in mind. I'm spending twice that to get a new frame for my son's RM. And waiting 3 months to get it. I want him to come home, the same way he left home. All good. It was a healthy discussion, and every one is good. I apologize if I offended you. Opinions , are just that. Shouldn't keep us from saying what we think. I'm cool with you too. Have a fun and safe season, every time.
jeffro503
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5/14/2012 8:29pm
mx5471 wrote:
jeffro503. That's cool. I have my kid in mind. I'm spending twice that to get a new frame for my son's RM. And waiting 3 months...
jeffro503. That's cool. I have my kid in mind. I'm spending twice that to get a new frame for my son's RM. And waiting 3 months to get it. I want him to come home, the same way he left home. All good. It was a healthy discussion, and every one is good. I apologize if I offended you. Opinions , are just that. Shouldn't keep us from saying what we think. I'm cool with you too. Have a fun and safe season, every time.
You too man....sorry for acting like I got a little hot under the collar. I have a tendency to do that every once in a while and it's my own stupid fault. Take care man.....and get your boys bike put back together!
Kbach
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5/14/2012 10:12pm
mx5471 wrote:
I have no reason to doubt you Kbach. After 14 years as a professional, you gotta know more than anyone of us. So, what's your opinion...
I have no reason to doubt you Kbach. After 14 years as a professional, you gotta know more than anyone of us. So, what's your opinion. Fix it, or replace it?
Personally, I would replace it for a few reasons.

First, to properly repair it you'd need a section of the same material to replace the damaged one. That extrusion is proprietary to Honda so it's not like you can just run down to the local material store and buy a section of material. $$$

Next, to find somebody to properly bend the material is going to cost big $$$ to fab up some dies.

Another option is cutting a piece from another frame and welding it in. Again, lots of fab time to properly remove each piece and do the swap. Then they'll need to weld it in and replicate the same weld beads using the right amount (and proper type) of AL rod. $$$.

Of course you could just patch the damaged section but your going to end up with something that handles differently than the original chassis did. Will you notice it, hard to say, but there's a reason some skid plate manufacturers have started using rubber isolators to mount them up. This area if the chassis, if too rigid can really make the bike feel heavy and hard to initiate a turn with. Will the rider notice it? Again hard to say but there will be a difference.

Now let's say you finally decided to do the repair, fabbed up a replacement piece or patched it up. Do you know what post-weld heat treatment the factory calls for? I sure don't and I'd be willing to bet the welder that did the job doesn't either and is just going to be guessing.

While all of this may seem like it's the extreme, it probably is but when you consider the amount of man hours and development time that goes into making these bikes handle the way they do why would you purposely go backwards with it when there's another option that might cost a little more initially but pay off in the end with resale value..

So,my long winded answer to the question would be nope, I wouldn't fix it. I'd dig around online and in eBay and try to find a used 2010-2012 chassis for the best price and go that route.

And trust me, I'm sure there are tons of people on here that know more than I do, I just happen to have spent quite some time working in this area and I've picked up a few tidbits of information over the years!
RMRider1
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5/15/2012 4:50am
RMRider1 wrote:
I'm no engineer but I do understand a lot about three words in this post above...[b]"Critical Stress Area"[/b]. There are no welds in this area from...
I'm no engineer but I do understand a lot about three words in this post above..."Critical Stress Area". There are no welds in this area from the factory for a reason...replace bra!
Bob454 wrote:
Stupid post, utterly stupid. @MxSkillz I would repair and ride this frame if it were mine, no questions asked. Just because you am make a bike...
Stupid post, utterly stupid.

@MxSkillz I would repair and ride this frame if it were mine, no questions asked. Just because you am make a bike pretty and shiny does not mean you know about "structural integrity". That is a low stress point on a frame, as said before the engine is bolted in three places around the damaged area, reducing the stress by a long shot. I will be willing to bet any reputable welding shop near you could do a bang up job on that frame for way less than a grand...
Oh, ok cheif, just another brilliant brain child on this site!! lol
MX_er424
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Canyondam, CA US
5/15/2012 1:44pm
You don't know the heat treating protocols Honda calls for, you don't know the type of aluminum, and you don't know how the pieces are originally pieced together(sleeved, butted, etc). It would be hard to section because it's not symmetrical and getting the engine holes lined up would be a bitch. Flex characteristics would probably be changed and alignment could become wacked if not done perfectly. Coming from an engineer on the manufacturing side of things: scrap it.
5/15/2012 2:33pm Edited Date/Time 5/15/2012 2:40pm
mx5471 wrote:
This is asinine. Everyone has advice, but no one wants to ride the bike after someone welds it. The first places frames crack, is at the...
This is asinine. Everyone has advice, but no one wants to ride the bike after someone welds it. The first places frames crack, is at the rails by the engine mounts, then at the yoke. I know this is crash damage, but it is still broken. The point here is that if anyone sells a bike that they are afraid to ride, they shouldn't sell it to anyone without apprising them of why they are afraid to ride it. This sport is in it self, a dangerous sport. I couldn't sleep at night if I sold that bike to some one with the welded frame. I've been thru this before with these frames many times over the years. It is the reason why I'm gettin a new one for my son's bike. That's major damage, and the frame is totaled. A grand is not a lot of money, especially when someones safety is at stake. As I said, I don't think many welders would want the liability, if it broke and caused an injury, for the amount you would want to pay.
jeffro503 wrote:
Dude.....I don't mean to sound like a jerk , but you obviously don't know what the hell you're even talking about! 1st of all.....the fucking frame...
Dude.....I don't mean to sound like a jerk , but you obviously don't know what the hell you're even talking about!

1st of all.....the fucking frame is welded from the factory to begin with! You cut out the damaged part , replace it and then gusset it....it's stronger than it was from the factory! Are you going to sit here and tell me that it's impossible to make a frame "Stronger" than stock? Seriously....pull your head out of your ass.

YES.....you may even gain a couple lbs........but who gives a shit!

Service Honda COMPLETELY removes the entire front cradle from a stock frame and re-welds a new modified cradle on to fit the big two stroke motors! Do you think Service Honda doesn't know what they are doing? Are you going to tell me that ANY frame that has ever been repaired........people aren't thinking about their own safety?

Jesus Christ......reading your fucking post made me want to reach right through this monitor and strangle your ass. THINK about shit before you post it! And for Christs sake.....get your fucking facts strait before you go talking out of your ass any further!
Jeffro, you speak the truth...

I watched a "behind the bars" for Kyle Cunnighams bike and all of Rock Rivers bikes get their frames welded many times throughout the season. Check it out on transworld
mx5471
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5/15/2012 4:13pm
Analyze this issue here. Repair or replace? There are 2 major considerations, safety, and cost. Your average Joe the welder can't fix that. Sure, he can weld it, but it'll break while you're putting the bike back together. Assuming the rest of the frame is perfect, now you need some one knowledgeable on the proper techniques to fix these things. You're not finding him in town. I'm sure there are people out there that are capable, like they guys that do Cunnighams and Rock River bikes, as the previous guy said. But what he doesn't know is if, after they looked at that one, would they fix it or trash it. Let's assume they say they can fix it, and even Service Honda says the same thing. It'll cost a hundred bucks each way for the shipping. Shop rates are anywhere from $70 to $110 an hour. I'll assume 3 to 4 hours for a guy knowing what he's doing. At the median, it's $360 for the work, and $200 for shipping, almost $600. A new one is $1000, and used ones can be found for half that, because people can't afford to fix the motors, and part them out. What's the smartest thing to do in this case?
Spartacus
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5/15/2012 6:15pm Edited Date/Time 5/15/2012 6:17pm
Jesus, stop bitchin ,Im a welder, like stated above its not rocket science,get the damn thing welded end of story unless you have money to waste...
Jesus, stop bitchin ,Im a welder, like stated above its not rocket science,get the damn thing welded end of story unless you have money to waste on a new frame.
Thank you.

My God, that's nothing compared with cutting out and re-welding the entire cradle on a CR500 conversion.
willie838
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New Windsor, NY US
5/15/2012 6:57pm Edited Date/Time 5/15/2012 6:59pm
i is stupid.
newmann
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5/15/2012 7:14pm
willie838 wrote:
i is stupid.
Then you should fit in well. Welcome aboard.

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