New Electric MX: BRD Redshift

WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 11/8/2011 1:27pm
11/8/2011 1:27pm
Erick wrote:
Thats not true. When you have a eletric motor you can get torque by wire control. This means 50% throttle equals 50% torque. Your right wrist...
Thats not true. When you have a eletric motor you can get torque by wire control. This means 50% throttle equals 50% torque. Your right wrist is your traction control. I once have ridden an electric bike and it feels awesome. Very much four stroke like but then even better.

And electric dirtbike is exactly what the sport needs. Quiet and easy to maintain motorcycles. The cheapness still has to come however. But with constant ongoing battery R&D this has become a matter of time.

Compare modern day laptop batteries with batteries from 7 years ago. Big difference.

Another problem is the coming shortage of lithium which is used in batteries. When we go all electric the lithium in the ground will exhaust very quickly. The same as happens to the oil.
You're exactly right about the way electric motors work, Erick. To continue that thought: We just bought a Volt, and until you drive something like that you don't realize the tremendous difference between the way an electric motor and an internal combustion engine work. With an electric motor, it makes power in direct proportion to current - if you push the accelerator to the floor, it makes all the power the battery/motor combination will make. It will make the same amount of power at 5 MPH that it makes at 50 MPH, instantly. An internal combustion engine responds to an WFO throttle by spinning up and gradually making more power with more RPM until it hit its torque peak at a certain RPM (when I say "power" I'm referring more to "torque", which is what you feel when you ride). The instantaneous quality of electric power is hard to describe.

On the other hand, with weight being a limitation, you're either going to have to make an electric bike that's light but needs very frequent recharging or a bike that you can ride for a long time but is very heavy. And recharging is going to take longer than you might think.

Beyond all that - as much as I love our Volt, to me motocross is an internal combustion engine activity. You gotta have the sound, IMO.
fasterfaster
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fasterfaster 11/8/2011 2:01pm
11/8/2011 2:01pm
MotoChief wrote:
FasterFaster, have you guys tried to get into a National or SX to do a demo run? Just a couple laps in front of a big...
FasterFaster, have you guys tried to get into a National or SX to do a demo run? Just a couple laps in front of a big crowd would likely "energize" the general population about EMX(trademarked).
MC, definitely. From the beginning our goal has been to get these bikes into racing - to us electric isn't credible unless we can prove it's as fast or faster than the best gas bikes. We also love the idea of an American factory lining up at the gate. Easier said than done though... it's tough to develop an equivalency to gas for homologation (think of all the controversy about 2T to 4T, and then multiply it) and the Big 4 aren't too excited to have new competition from a format they don't own.

We're working with the MIC, and as we get further into development we'll approach the AMA, but what will really make the difference is if the AMA believes our bikes will draw crowds and sponsors. If you guys demand it, it will definitely happen.
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Rooster 11/8/2011 2:10pm
11/8/2011 2:10pm
fasterfaster wrote:
MC, definitely. From the beginning our goal has been to get these bikes into racing - to us electric isn't credible unless we can prove it's...
MC, definitely. From the beginning our goal has been to get these bikes into racing - to us electric isn't credible unless we can prove it's as fast or faster than the best gas bikes. We also love the idea of an American factory lining up at the gate. Easier said than done though... it's tough to develop an equivalency to gas for homologation (think of all the controversy about 2T to 4T, and then multiply it) and the Big 4 aren't too excited to have new competition from a format they don't own.

We're working with the MIC, and as we get further into development we'll approach the AMA, but what will really make the difference is if the AMA believes our bikes will draw crowds and sponsors. If you guys demand it, it will definitely happen.
Even a separate class that was running comparable lap times to the pros would open a lot of eyes.

The day an electric bike can huck Larocco's leap without breaking into a million pieces is the day most people will open their eyes to the shift in technology. If you could do that, you'll earn the respect the bike deserves.
Neutra
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Neutra 11/8/2011 2:26pm
11/8/2011 2:26pm
Yeah, Larocco's leap is the test! I would love to see this. Maybe a couple of years.. maybe even less.
Thanks for posting Mr Fasterfaster

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jasonv43
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jasonv43 11/8/2011 3:29pm
11/8/2011 3:29pm


Zero has trimmed it's dirt-bike lineup to two models for 2012: The Zero X, designed for trail riding, is now exclusively available with lights and is street-legal. With 33 percent more overall power and 75 percent greater range, it now uses the same championship winning powertrain as the Zero MX, Zero says.

Built for motocross riding and now exclusively available for off-road only, the Zero MX also received more power and offers riders the ability to accelerate harder and hit higher top speeds. Both off-road models also feature a new design.

Zero X
$9,945
Zero MX
$9,495
fasterfaster
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fasterfaster 11/9/2011 6:17pm
11/9/2011 6:17pm
Rooster wrote:
Even a separate class that was running comparable lap times to the pros would open a lot of eyes. The day an electric bike can huck...
Even a separate class that was running comparable lap times to the pros would open a lot of eyes.

The day an electric bike can huck Larocco's leap without breaking into a million pieces is the day most people will open their eyes to the shift in technology. If you could do that, you'll earn the respect the bike deserves.
I love this idea like Kardashians love paparazzi. Consider it carefully noted. I know we have the powerplant. I know we'll get there with the chassis - it's strong enough, but getting the balance and suspension right for that much air and that size hit takes time. Last piece is finding the rider...
EvanR127
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EvanR127 11/9/2011 7:01pm
11/9/2011 7:01pm
I was looking at the site and its states is can reach 80mph! If that is true, isn't that unnecessary? Even on trails a dirt bike doesn't need to go faster than 50 mph max. Would that reduce the weight?
fasterfaster
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fasterfaster 11/9/2011 8:01pm
11/9/2011 8:01pm
Because we ship the bikes as street legal, we need to gear them for safe street travel which means easily keeping up with California highway traffic. We expect folks who race or off-road exclusively to swap sprockets as you would for any race bike and gear it for top speed of the courses you're running - that gives you the most available rear wheel torque.
FLmxer
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FLmxer 11/9/2011 10:56pm
11/9/2011 10:56pm
I will have an amazing sx track in my yard in my private neighborhood, true story.I like where this is headed.
PaleBlue
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PaleBlue 11/10/2011 12:59am
11/10/2011 12:59am Edited Date/Time 11/10/2011 1:04am
I truly love the idea and look of that bike. You already have produced something far more desireable than anything else I've seen in this area. Seems to work pretty well too - al least on pavement Wink .

But I do have concerns about the battery technology. As stated in an earlier post Lithium availablity is going to become a real problem before too long. Are there alternatives on the horizon? Also the battery fire at an electric road race at Siverstone this summer was a real worry. I expect you (Faster Faster) will know about that already but for the rest, one of the electric racers battery caught fire, the trackside marshalls used all sixteen of the powder extinguishers that they had to hand and they still couldn't put the fire out. They were also worried about the toxic fumes given off by the fire and so evacuated all the spectators from that area of the circuit. Something to ponder......

As for cost equivalency, 200hrs against a CRF250F Laughing - as a target, thats shooting fish in a barrel.
Rooster
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Rooster 11/10/2011 9:00am
11/10/2011 9:00am
Well, if you you manage to jump Larocco's leap on a street legal bike, it might be the first time anybody's ever done that.

Get the rider to beep the horn in the air for extra effect.
fasterfaster
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fasterfaster 11/10/2011 10:05am
11/10/2011 10:05am Edited Date/Time 11/10/2011 10:06am
PaleBlue wrote:
I truly love the idea and look of that bike. You already have produced something far more desireable than anything else I've seen in this area...
I truly love the idea and look of that bike. You already have produced something far more desireable than anything else I've seen in this area. Seems to work pretty well too - al least on pavement Wink .

But I do have concerns about the battery technology. As stated in an earlier post Lithium availablity is going to become a real problem before too long. Are there alternatives on the horizon? Also the battery fire at an electric road race at Siverstone this summer was a real worry. I expect you (Faster Faster) will know about that already but for the rest, one of the electric racers battery caught fire, the trackside marshalls used all sixteen of the powder extinguishers that they had to hand and they still couldn't put the fire out. They were also worried about the toxic fumes given off by the fire and so evacuated all the spectators from that area of the circuit. Something to ponder......

As for cost equivalency, 200hrs against a CRF250F Laughing - as a target, thats shooting fish in a barrel.
Haha, PB, yes the CRF is a bit of a maintenance nightmare, but the numbers work out pretty similarly for any 250F race bike IF you have a shop doing your major maintenance. If you're doing all of your own engine work, the gassers are cheaper and I wouldn't pretend otherwise. The only thing I can say there is that you'll spend more time riding and less wrenching on an electric. I've attached our basic worksheet below (which REALLY handicaps our bike with half the engineered battery life and low resale since that is still unknown, and does only about a third of the Honda recommended maintenance)... feel free to tweak the numbers to your bike and maintenance schedule to see how it works out.



On Li-Ion, there are definitely folks working on alternatives, but it's not a problem we need to worry about over the next five years, any more than we need to worry about oil disappearing over the next five years. Long term concern, yes, but unlikely to affect these bikes.

As for fire danger, sure it's there. Just like it's there in the gas tank of your current bike. You're hauling around the equivalent of 2 sticks of dynamite in your crotch every time you straddle a fueled bike. Prototype racing isn't really a fair comparison to the kind of bikes we're engineering to go into consumer hands, anymore than the horrific fires in 1970s era Formula 1 would make you question the fire safety of a Corvette. Prototypes are engineered much closer to the edge of safety and don't see nearly the testing of retail products. Our bike and battery pack are engineered to make that kind of fire impossible, but more importantly (and the reason for the wait) we'll spend the next 6-9 months destroying them in real world use to make sure we got it right.
flyinb501
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flyinb501 11/10/2011 10:49am
11/10/2011 10:49am
I think the coolest thing about cars and motorcycles is the internal combustion engine. I just don't see the draw of electric vehicles. Maybe for people that are not gear heads like us, and are just looking to get from point A to point B.

Props to BRD for the innovation, but I will be one of the last to make the switch if it ever becomes that popular.
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Rooster 11/10/2011 12:42pm
11/10/2011 12:42pm
flyinb501 wrote:
I think the coolest thing about cars and motorcycles is the internal combustion engine. I just don't see the draw of electric vehicles. Maybe for people...
I think the coolest thing about cars and motorcycles is the internal combustion engine. I just don't see the draw of electric vehicles. Maybe for people that are not gear heads like us, and are just looking to get from point A to point B.

Props to BRD for the innovation, but I will be one of the last to make the switch if it ever becomes that popular.
Until they start beating you.
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JbCov225 11/10/2011 7:46pm
11/10/2011 7:46pm
Marc,

What kind of suspension has been chosen for the Redshift MX? By the looks of the pictures I'd guess KYB forks and a slightly older style 16mm KYB shock (judging by the compression assembly design and no Kashima coating.) Whatever it maybe it appears you guys have chosen suspension that can actually hold up to the rigors of moto and supercross. That is awesome!

How will you conduct suspension development and testing? Do you have test riders, experienced suspension techs, and knowledge? I ask because I feel suspension gets overlooked often and is the weak point of performance for entering motorcycle mfgs. A faster or equal emotor is nothing without suspension that can handle the terrain as well. I would think the Redshift MX suspension would have advantages with the emotor's instant torque and linear powerband.

I am a huge fan and supporter of what you guys are doing. I believe electric bikes will save our sport and open many new riding places/opportunities.
Track and Trail 11/10/2011 7:50pm
11/10/2011 7:50pm
Whichever one of the electric bike companies can make a bike run the longest before the battery goes dead is who I would go with.

Nothing would halt my purchase faster than a bike that only runs for 20 minutes at full tilt. I want to go trail riding for extended periods. Hopefully the technology will be there for that to happen.
JbCov225
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JbCov225 11/10/2011 8:06pm
11/10/2011 8:06pm
Agree, you have to have "go" to have the need for suspension. I just dont want to see them get the motor part figured out and not have a chassis that matches it. Like I said by the looks of it they do and are well on their way.
fasterfaster
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fasterfaster 11/10/2011 8:10pm
11/10/2011 8:10pm
JB, good eye for detail. You're right that the prototype in the press shots has KYB suspension. It's a 48mm closed cart up front, and an older KYB in the rear we chose for the specific reservoir fitment. These are not the production parts, but yes, the bikes will ship with fully adjustable suspension that is the same or comparable to any of the Big 4 or KTM MXers. I can't say more at this time while contracts are still in negotiation.

We couldn't agree more that chassis and suspension performance is absolutely critical to the success of the bikes. We do have a strong team and network of riders and tuners who will be working with us on dialing the bikes over the winter, but we are also hoping to get our test fleet into public hands here and there for opinions and feedback. The bikes have to work for mortals in addition to the superheros on podiums at nationals.

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JbCov225
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JbCov225 11/10/2011 8:24pm
11/10/2011 8:24pm
Very cool! The 48mm SSS KYB fork is an excellent performing production unit.

I was figuring there woud maybe be a conflict of interest of getting Showa (Honda), WP (KTM) or KYB as a OEM supplier.
If I had to guess maybe Fox Shox as they would be a domestic supplier, close by, and have the experience.
Now thinking more about it that would be a lot like Japan's efficient supply chain (using neighboring suppliers).
How cool would that be! An 100% American made bike leading the electric bike industry!
BobbyM
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BobbyM 11/10/2011 9:14pm
11/10/2011 9:14pm
oldschoolmxr203 wrote:
Cool looking E bike,

But 240 lbs,for the MX version, and 15 K price, ouch ,,
MX Sports Medicine wrote:
The first "home" computer took up a whole room and cost millions!
almost true..it wasn't a home pc though i don't believe
BobbyM
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BobbyM 11/10/2011 9:15pm
11/10/2011 9:15pm
Track and Trail wrote:
Whichever one of the electric bike companies can make a bike run the longest before the battery goes dead is who I would go with. Nothing...
Whichever one of the electric bike companies can make a bike run the longest before the battery goes dead is who I would go with.

Nothing would halt my purchase faster than a bike that only runs for 20 minutes at full tilt. I want to go trail riding for extended periods. Hopefully the technology will be there for that to happen.
there's always the optional 1500 ft rotating extension cord
Track and Trail 11/10/2011 9:17pm
11/10/2011 9:17pm
Track and Trail wrote:
Whichever one of the electric bike companies can make a bike run the longest before the battery goes dead is who I would go with. Nothing...
Whichever one of the electric bike companies can make a bike run the longest before the battery goes dead is who I would go with.

Nothing would halt my purchase faster than a bike that only runs for 20 minutes at full tilt. I want to go trail riding for extended periods. Hopefully the technology will be there for that to happen.
BobbyM wrote:
there's always the optional 1500 ft rotating extension cord
In that case I'll take two!


Beers that is.
flyinb501
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flyinb501 11/11/2011 6:09am
11/11/2011 6:09am
flyinb501 wrote:
I think the coolest thing about cars and motorcycles is the internal combustion engine. I just don't see the draw of electric vehicles. Maybe for people...
I think the coolest thing about cars and motorcycles is the internal combustion engine. I just don't see the draw of electric vehicles. Maybe for people that are not gear heads like us, and are just looking to get from point A to point B.

Props to BRD for the innovation, but I will be one of the last to make the switch if it ever becomes that popular.
Rooster wrote:
Until they start beating you.
I won't hold my breath...
wow123
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wow123 11/11/2011 6:33am
11/11/2011 6:33am
MotoChief wrote:
FasterFaster, have you guys tried to get into a National or SX to do a demo run? Just a couple laps in front of a big...
FasterFaster, have you guys tried to get into a National or SX to do a demo run? Just a couple laps in front of a big crowd would likely "energize" the general population about EMX(trademarked).
http://www.korg.com/EMX1
bwh998
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bwh998 11/12/2011 6:50am
11/12/2011 6:50am
i think you guys are missing a large segment of your possible market by not making these things pit bike sized. at this point your run times and such may not be able to compete against full size gas burners, but a 20 min battery life wouldn't be a huge downside to a pit at all, it would be about right actually.
fasterfaster
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fasterfaster 12/12/2011 7:13pm
12/12/2011 7:13pm
Bump for some video of the first journalist test rides. I know we've been supermoto heavy so far, but well get some dirt video out in the new year. The journos were about 3-4 seconds faster per lap (1:12 to 1:08) on the RedShift with street tires than my KTM 250 XCF-W with slicks, even though we had top speed limited the RedShift to 56mph and told them they were not allowed to crash the electric.

(watch in 720 or 1080)
PaleBlue
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PaleBlue 12/13/2011 11:34pm
12/13/2011 11:34pm Edited Date/Time 12/13/2011 11:35pm
I watched some fantastic karting last night on TV. It was from Bercy, involved several F1 drivers and was a good as any I'd ever seen. After about a half hour of watching I became aware that the were using electric powered karts. My point is this , if you don't let prejudice cloud your mind you can see the true potential of any new technology and electric bikes have the potential to be every bit as exciting as current bikes. Maybe not the same feel and sound but every bit as exciting in their own way.
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Motodude 12/13/2011 11:40pm
12/13/2011 11:40pm
Need noise!!!
JustMX
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JustMX 12/14/2011 4:07am
12/14/2011 4:07am
I would suggest in future videos you do the interviews away from the track noise so you can understand what they are saying and we can experience a brief glimpse of the future, one without Fourstroke racket Smile
fasterfaster
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fasterfaster 2/17/2012 6:44pm
2/17/2012 6:44pm
Motodude wrote:
Need noise!!!
We got some of that.

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