about racing 250t vs 250f...

WORCSRacer
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Edited Date/Time 1/25/2012 3:44pm
Last week I had a great conversation with the promoter of the biggest MX series on the West Coast about why 250 four strokes can't race 250 two strokes heads up.

"Basically it comes down to this for every 1 call i got asking if I would allow 250 two strokes to race in the 250 class against 250 four strokes, I got 10 calls to tell me if I allowed it they wouldn't race my series. This was not factory pressure it was from families with kids racing. So I had a choice, take a big chance with my business or just keep things as they are. Besides its only the Vet's who want to race a two stroke and they can race anything they want now."

So for all the hand wringing, bitching and whining that goes on about how its just not fair, the evil promoters, the factories are behind it all and basically the 250F has ruined MX as we know it, the driving force (at least out here) is its the Amateur Racing families, the ones the change is supposed to benefit, don't want it to happen.
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MotoX85
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10/19/2011 9:59am
I call BS on this one. I own a 4 stroke, have bought 2 before this and 4 strokes are ruining the sport. I will not buy another and I have NEVER had any failures that grenaded the motors. Between lil johnny not learning how to ride (125 cc) before jumping the 100 ft triple and crippling himself, to the one line tracks that a 4 banger needs to take because of less turning options, to the cost of grenading a motor, 4 strokes are ruining the sport in more ways than one. I love to sit my fat, 42 yr old ass on a 4f but this has ruined my riding ability, I was much faster on the 2t. But it is nicer to be able to just pull the trigger on a 450 instead of actually learning how to go fast on a track.

Also I know of NO family that has complained that 2 strokes cost more to race than 4 strokes, in fact it is the complete opposite, know of no lesss than 4 families that have sold all their 4 strokes and went to 2. 2 strokes in the area have increased 10 fold. My next purchase will be a 2 stroke, hands down. Some love em, some hate em but in all fairness let the CCs speak for themselves, 250 cc class, 2 or 4 strokes. If the 4 banger is superior than let the bike do the talking. And if someone says they will not get their business because of equal CCs, then let them race somewhere else.
rmz361
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10/19/2011 10:01am
I agree with the people complaining. Its not really fair for someone to be able to race a 250 t stroke that has about 12 more hp than a 250f, in the 250f class.

If you want to ride a 250 two stroke, race the open class. The power difference is not that much.

If you want to ride in the 250 class with a 2 stroke so bad, then get a ktm 150.

Classes are oriented around 4 strokes...get over it
reded
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10/19/2011 10:05am Edited Date/Time 10/19/2011 10:07am
Yet when the classes were oriented around 2strokes they let 450's run in the 250 class.... sounds like a legit argument you've got there.
MotoX85
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10/19/2011 10:08am
Thats the problem, classes were NOT made for 4 strokes, they were made for 2. They were MODIFIED for 4 strokes so the OEMs (Yamaha) could change the face of MX. Ever wonder why a 4 stroke exhaust cost $1000 and 2 stroke exhaust costs $250. They both use about the same amount of metal and a Ti exhaust for a 2 stroke is about $20 more than a steal one.

Because 2 strokes were about R & D out and the OEM where not making money after the sale, that and everyone could do the work themselves. Now bring along 4 strokes and now look at the money OEMs are making off of parts and service.

2 strokes were about as good as they could get and 4 strokes were a new opportunity to develop.

The Shop

rmz361
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10/19/2011 10:11am Edited Date/Time 10/19/2011 10:12am
reded wrote:
Yet when the classes were oriented around 2strokes they let 450's run in the 250 class.... sounds like a legit argument you've got there.
The horsepower difference between a 250 two stroke and a 450f is MUCH less than a 250f and 250ts.
WORCSRacer
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10/19/2011 10:13am
MotoX85 wrote:
I call BS on this one. I own a 4 stroke, have bought 2 before this and 4 strokes are ruining the sport. I will not...
I call BS on this one. I own a 4 stroke, have bought 2 before this and 4 strokes are ruining the sport. I will not buy another and I have NEVER had any failures that grenaded the motors. Between lil johnny not learning how to ride (125 cc) before jumping the 100 ft triple and crippling himself, to the one line tracks that a 4 banger needs to take because of less turning options, to the cost of grenading a motor, 4 strokes are ruining the sport in more ways than one. I love to sit my fat, 42 yr old ass on a 4f but this has ruined my riding ability, I was much faster on the 2t. But it is nicer to be able to just pull the trigger on a 450 instead of actually learning how to go fast on a track.

Also I know of NO family that has complained that 2 strokes cost more to race than 4 strokes, in fact it is the complete opposite, know of no lesss than 4 families that have sold all their 4 strokes and went to 2. 2 strokes in the area have increased 10 fold. My next purchase will be a 2 stroke, hands down. Some love em, some hate em but in all fairness let the CCs speak for themselves, 250 cc class, 2 or 4 strokes. If the 4 banger is superior than let the bike do the talking. And if someone says they will not get their business because of equal CCs, then let them race somewhere else.
It be nice if you read what I wrote.

1. I didn't say they were complaining about the cost of racing two strokes.
2. The families are complaining about having to race against them.
3. You are exactly who he is talking about a "vet" who can race anything you want.
4. That's pretty big talk keyboard jockey. "let them race somewhere else"... you making your living in this sport? 10 to 1 I don't blame him one bit for choosing the option he did. Do you really think its going to help his business allowing 250 on 250? Not hardly.

So basically WTF are you bitching about?
WORCSRacer
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10/19/2011 10:15am Edited Date/Time 10/19/2011 10:16am
MotoX85 wrote:
Thats the problem, classes were NOT made for 4 strokes, they were made for 2. They were MODIFIED for 4 strokes so the OEMs (Yamaha) could...
Thats the problem, classes were NOT made for 4 strokes, they were made for 2. They were MODIFIED for 4 strokes so the OEMs (Yamaha) could change the face of MX. Ever wonder why a 4 stroke exhaust cost $1000 and 2 stroke exhaust costs $250. They both use about the same amount of metal and a Ti exhaust for a 2 stroke is about $20 more than a steal one.

Because 2 strokes were about R & D out and the OEM where not making money after the sale, that and everyone could do the work themselves. Now bring along 4 strokes and now look at the money OEMs are making off of parts and service.

2 strokes were about as good as they could get and 4 strokes were a new opportunity to develop.
Whew didn't take long for you to get the tin foil helmet out.


BTW 2 stroke pipes are stamped metal vs 4 stroke pipes being drawn and bent. Big difference.
MotoX85
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10/19/2011 10:15am
So I guess Roger DeCoster doesn't really know what he is talking about then, since he stated that all things considered that a 250t and a 250f are about equal. Some excel in areas the other doesn't and vice versa. The power, albeit slightly more on a 250t is more abrupt and the 250f is easier to ride thus equalling the two machines.

But hell who the heck is Roger DeCoster anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MotoX85
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10/19/2011 10:17am
MotoX85 wrote:
Thats the problem, classes were NOT made for 4 strokes, they were made for 2. They were MODIFIED for 4 strokes so the OEMs (Yamaha) could...
Thats the problem, classes were NOT made for 4 strokes, they were made for 2. They were MODIFIED for 4 strokes so the OEMs (Yamaha) could change the face of MX. Ever wonder why a 4 stroke exhaust cost $1000 and 2 stroke exhaust costs $250. They both use about the same amount of metal and a Ti exhaust for a 2 stroke is about $20 more than a steal one.

Because 2 strokes were about R & D out and the OEM where not making money after the sale, that and everyone could do the work themselves. Now bring along 4 strokes and now look at the money OEMs are making off of parts and service.

2 strokes were about as good as they could get and 4 strokes were a new opportunity to develop.
WORCSRacer wrote:
Whew didn't take long for you to get the tin foil helmet out. BTW 2 stroke pipes are stamped metal vs 4 stroke pipes being drawn...
Whew didn't take long for you to get the tin foil helmet out.


BTW 2 stroke pipes are stamped metal vs 4 stroke pipes being drawn and bent. Big difference.
Not tin foil, only aluminuminum around here. Trying to save up my POPs (proof of purchase) for the platinuminum edition, only have 3.5 million packs of Kool-aid to go.
WORCSRacer
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10/19/2011 10:18am
MotoX85 wrote:
So I guess Roger DeCoster doesn't really know what he is talking about then, since he stated that all things considered that a 250t and a...
So I guess Roger DeCoster doesn't really know what he is talking about then, since he stated that all things considered that a 250t and a 250f are about equal. Some excel in areas the other doesn't and vice versa. The power, albeit slightly more on a 250t is more abrupt and the 250f is easier to ride thus equalling the two machines.

But hell who the heck is Roger DeCoster anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He's an employee at KTM now. Duh.
mxpunk
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10/19/2011 10:21am
2-strokes are going to make a come back because with the way the economy is going, no one in their mind will buy a 4-stroke

Many are converting back due to the fact that they can't afford to ride their thumpers.....

a 250 2-stroke MX bike ...is the most versatile motorcycle one can buy!!
seth505
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10/19/2011 10:25am
Come to New England, our series allow 250 vs 250. NEMX, WSP, NESC... Cool
reded
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10/19/2011 10:29am Edited Date/Time 10/19/2011 10:30am
reded wrote:
Yet when the classes were oriented around 2strokes they let 450's run in the 250 class.... sounds like a legit argument you've got there.
rmz361 wrote:
The horsepower difference between a 250 two stroke and a 450f is MUCH less than a 250f and 250ts.
How about the difference between the 125 and the 250F, that was fair in your opinion also?

How efficient can an engine possibly be if it requires twice as much displacement in order to compete?
bt260
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10/19/2011 10:29am
gotta admit, I pull for the 2 strokes every chance I get, but I ride a 450. But you retards and this never ending run of 2vs4 threads and the ensuing arguements is getting old. I normally don't post if I have nothing constructive to add to the conversation, but I just can't help myself this time. You're all dumb. It is was it is, get over it.
flyinb501
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10/19/2011 10:32am
In my district you can ride 250T's in the 250 class.
ML512
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10/19/2011 10:37am
WORCSRacer wrote:
Last week I had a great conversation with the promoter of the biggest MX series on the West Coast about why 250 four strokes can't race...
Last week I had a great conversation with the promoter of the biggest MX series on the West Coast about why 250 four strokes can't race 250 two strokes heads up.

"Basically it comes down to this for every 1 call i got asking if I would allow 250 two strokes to race in the 250 class against 250 four strokes, I got 10 calls to tell me if I allowed it they wouldn't race my series. This was not factory pressure it was from families with kids racing. So I had a choice, take a big chance with my business or just keep things as they are. Besides its only the Vet's who want to race a two stroke and they can race anything they want now."

So for all the hand wringing, bitching and whining that goes on about how its just not fair, the evil promoters, the factories are behind it all and basically the 250F has ruined MX as we know it, the driving force (at least out here) is its the Amateur Racing families, the ones the change is supposed to benefit, don't want it to happen.
Steve isn't making this stuff up, Personally i work at a track to make extra money here in southern california and before our last race series started i was getting tons of phone calls about this same question. We had way more calls from parents that were asking if there would be 250T's in the 250 class and they said if there was they wouldn't race, there was very few who wanted to race them in the amateur classes, most did not want them mixed together. In the vet classes however the percentage was nearly reversed in wanting to race them in their classes.
reded
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10/19/2011 10:37am
flyinb501 wrote:
In my district you can ride 250T's in the 250 class.
For you guys whose districts allow it, is there a resurgence of the 2stroke with some of the fast guys or is it pretty much a dead horse?
MotoX85
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10/19/2011 10:38am
flyinb501 wrote:
In my district you can ride 250T's in the 250 class.
Here also and there is sometimes more than the 250Fs, and a crap load of 125's, it is becoming one of the biggest classes
newmann
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10/19/2011 10:39am
WORCSRacer wrote:
Last week I had a great conversation with the promoter of the biggest MX series on the West Coast about why 250 four strokes can't race...
Last week I had a great conversation with the promoter of the biggest MX series on the West Coast about why 250 four strokes can't race 250 two strokes heads up.

"Basically it comes down to this for every 1 call i got asking if I would allow 250 two strokes to race in the 250 class against 250 four strokes, I got 10 calls to tell me if I allowed it they wouldn't race my series. This was not factory pressure it was from families with kids racing. So I had a choice, take a big chance with my business or just keep things as they are. Besides its only the Vet's who want to race a two stroke and they can race anything they want now."

So for all the hand wringing, bitching and whining that goes on about how its just not fair, the evil promoters, the factories are behind it all and basically the 250F has ruined MX as we know it, the driving force (at least out here) is its the Amateur Racing families, the ones the change is supposed to benefit, don't want it to happen.
So what you are saying is that the 4 stroke owners complain even more that the 2 stroke tin foil hat wearers? Whod'a thunk it...L-O-L!Tongue
ML512
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10/19/2011 10:41am
WORCSRacer wrote:
Last week I had a great conversation with the promoter of the biggest MX series on the West Coast about why 250 four strokes can't race...
Last week I had a great conversation with the promoter of the biggest MX series on the West Coast about why 250 four strokes can't race 250 two strokes heads up.

"Basically it comes down to this for every 1 call i got asking if I would allow 250 two strokes to race in the 250 class against 250 four strokes, I got 10 calls to tell me if I allowed it they wouldn't race my series. This was not factory pressure it was from families with kids racing. So I had a choice, take a big chance with my business or just keep things as they are. Besides its only the Vet's who want to race a two stroke and they can race anything they want now."

So for all the hand wringing, bitching and whining that goes on about how its just not fair, the evil promoters, the factories are behind it all and basically the 250F has ruined MX as we know it, the driving force (at least out here) is its the Amateur Racing families, the ones the change is supposed to benefit, don't want it to happen.
newmann wrote:
So what you are saying is that the 4 stroke owners complain even more that the 2 stroke tin foil hat wearers? Whod'a thunk it...L-O-L!Tongue
I've decided the whole motocross sport is like a group of 5th grade school girls starting rumors, causing drama, talking $h!t Laughing
MotoX85
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10/19/2011 10:42am
flyinb501 wrote:
In my district you can ride 250T's in the 250 class.
reded wrote:
For you guys whose districts allow it, is there a resurgence of the 2stroke with some of the fast guys or is it pretty much a...
For you guys whose districts allow it, is there a resurgence of the 2stroke with some of the fast guys or is it pretty much a dead horse?
The top 3 - 4 are probably still on 4 strokes but they are also the ones with 5 bikes in the stacker hauler, the 3-10th place guys are the ones usually going back to the 2 strokes and coincidentally they are the ones that show up with a truck and maybe a trailer. If they are not rich and can only buy 1, 4 stroke bike, it is almost always a 450. And although the majority is Yamahas, I have seen every brands 2 stroke resurfacing.
seth505
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10/19/2011 10:48am
WORCSRacer wrote:
Last week I had a great conversation with the promoter of the biggest MX series on the West Coast about why 250 four strokes can't race...
Last week I had a great conversation with the promoter of the biggest MX series on the West Coast about why 250 four strokes can't race 250 two strokes heads up.

"Basically it comes down to this for every 1 call i got asking if I would allow 250 two strokes to race in the 250 class against 250 four strokes, I got 10 calls to tell me if I allowed it they wouldn't race my series. This was not factory pressure it was from families with kids racing. So I had a choice, take a big chance with my business or just keep things as they are. Besides its only the Vet's who want to race a two stroke and they can race anything they want now."

So for all the hand wringing, bitching and whining that goes on about how its just not fair, the evil promoters, the factories are behind it all and basically the 250F has ruined MX as we know it, the driving force (at least out here) is its the Amateur Racing families, the ones the change is supposed to benefit, don't want it to happen.
ML512 wrote:
Steve isn't making this stuff up, Personally i work at a track to make extra money here in southern california and before our last race series...
Steve isn't making this stuff up, Personally i work at a track to make extra money here in southern california and before our last race series started i was getting tons of phone calls about this same question. We had way more calls from parents that were asking if there would be 250T's in the 250 class and they said if there was they wouldn't race, there was very few who wanted to race them in the amateur classes, most did not want them mixed together. In the vet classes however the percentage was nearly reversed in wanting to race them in their classes.
This has me perplexed. The only real reason I can think of for this being true is that because every young racer/moto parent thinks they are going to be the next big pro...so they "have to" ride what the pros ride for when they make their big debut at A1 some dayWhistling
reded
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10/19/2011 10:51am
WORCSRacer wrote:
Last week I had a great conversation with the promoter of the biggest MX series on the West Coast about why 250 four strokes can't race...
Last week I had a great conversation with the promoter of the biggest MX series on the West Coast about why 250 four strokes can't race 250 two strokes heads up.

"Basically it comes down to this for every 1 call i got asking if I would allow 250 two strokes to race in the 250 class against 250 four strokes, I got 10 calls to tell me if I allowed it they wouldn't race my series. This was not factory pressure it was from families with kids racing. So I had a choice, take a big chance with my business or just keep things as they are. Besides its only the Vet's who want to race a two stroke and they can race anything they want now."

So for all the hand wringing, bitching and whining that goes on about how its just not fair, the evil promoters, the factories are behind it all and basically the 250F has ruined MX as we know it, the driving force (at least out here) is its the Amateur Racing families, the ones the change is supposed to benefit, don't want it to happen.
ML512 wrote:
Steve isn't making this stuff up, Personally i work at a track to make extra money here in southern california and before our last race series...
Steve isn't making this stuff up, Personally i work at a track to make extra money here in southern california and before our last race series started i was getting tons of phone calls about this same question. We had way more calls from parents that were asking if there would be 250T's in the 250 class and they said if there was they wouldn't race, there was very few who wanted to race them in the amateur classes, most did not want them mixed together. In the vet classes however the percentage was nearly reversed in wanting to race them in their classes.
seth505 wrote:
This has me perplexed. The only real reason I can think of for this being true is that because every young racer/moto parent thinks they are...
This has me perplexed. The only real reason I can think of for this being true is that because every young racer/moto parent thinks they are going to be the next big pro...so they "have to" ride what the pros ride for when they make their big debut at A1 some dayWhistling
Not only that but if I had 10-15 large wrapped up in my kids 4stroke and someone showed up on a hack 3 yr old 2 stroke and whupped his ass it wouldn't look good for our program.
MotoX85
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10/19/2011 10:54am
ML512 wrote:
Steve isn't making this stuff up, Personally i work at a track to make extra money here in southern california and before our last race series...
Steve isn't making this stuff up, Personally i work at a track to make extra money here in southern california and before our last race series started i was getting tons of phone calls about this same question. We had way more calls from parents that were asking if there would be 250T's in the 250 class and they said if there was they wouldn't race, there was very few who wanted to race them in the amateur classes, most did not want them mixed together. In the vet classes however the percentage was nearly reversed in wanting to race them in their classes.
seth505 wrote:
This has me perplexed. The only real reason I can think of for this being true is that because every young racer/moto parent thinks they are...
This has me perplexed. The only real reason I can think of for this being true is that because every young racer/moto parent thinks they are going to be the next big pro...so they "have to" ride what the pros ride for when they make their big debut at A1 some dayWhistling
reded wrote:
Not only that but if I had 10-15 large wrapped up in my kids 4stroke and someone showed up on a hack 3 yr old 2...
Not only that but if I had 10-15 large wrapped up in my kids 4stroke and someone showed up on a hack 3 yr old 2 stroke and whupped his ass it wouldn't look good for our program.
And in that lies the problem !!!!!
seth505
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10/19/2011 10:55am
^exactly
adamdf
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10/19/2011 11:00am
The bikes are way out of hand.....2 years ago i was saying i would never own another two stroke, and that they are dinosaurs now....but in the last year i've been wishing i could get myself a KTM 250SX and just let it rip....

I'm glad for companies like KTM and Yamaha now more than ever, they are allowing the grass roots racers and weekend warriors to stay within their budget and ride almost works performance like two strokes week in and week out without the hassle of the maintenance cost or the black cloud over their heads while they float over a huge triple wondering when the darn thing is going to blow and send them to the hospital...

I think pro racing needs to wake up, or the 4 stroke prices need to come down.....racing is what the manufacturers depend on to sell bikes.....its the 2 strokes that everyone can afford now, not the 4s...

In the end though, the economy will balance itself out, and at that point, who knows which stroke will be more dominant....

until then.....i say dont be stupid, don't go out there and think you need a 4 stroke to be competitive on a local level and have fun doing it just because the pros are doing it....buy what you can afford, if thats a 2 stroke, then thank God there are some excellent choices out there right now.

Lastly....please, please please let your wallet speak for yourself, don't keep posting and arguing for the 2 stroke when you yourself wouldn't go and buy one.
ky_savage
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10/19/2011 11:03am
reded wrote:
Not only that but if I had 10-15 large wrapped up in my kids 4stroke and someone showed up on a hack 3 yr old 2...
Not only that but if I had 10-15 large wrapped up in my kids 4stroke and someone showed up on a hack 3 yr old 2 stroke and whupped his ass it wouldn't look good for our program.
^^^ This
reded
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10/19/2011 11:04am
Two strokes will not become fashionable again until some big name starts beating other big names on one. Then all of a sudden it'll be cool to ride a 2stroke again and all the little sheep will flock to the dealers and snatch up the 2strokes.

I say fuck the fashion show and enjoy the ride. I ride 2strokes and wouldn't be a lick faster on a new 450 of any brand so I keep it simple.
SteveS
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10/19/2011 11:04am
rmz361 wrote:
I agree with the people complaining. Its not really fair for someone to be able to race a 250 t stroke that has about 12 more...
I agree with the people complaining. Its not really fair for someone to be able to race a 250 t stroke that has about 12 more hp than a 250f, in the 250f class.

If you want to ride a 250 two stroke, race the open class. The power difference is not that much.

If you want to ride in the 250 class with a 2 stroke so bad, then get a ktm 150.

Classes are oriented around 4 strokes...get over it
Can't do a 150 because in places that don't allow the 250 two stroke, they are still using the old formula of max 125cc two stroke, 250cc four stroke.
adamdf
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10/19/2011 11:06am
reded wrote:
Two strokes will not become fashionable again until some big name starts beating other big names on one. Then all of a sudden it'll be cool...
Two strokes will not become fashionable again until some big name starts beating other big names on one. Then all of a sudden it'll be cool to ride a 2stroke again and all the little sheep will flock to the dealers and snatch up the 2strokes.

I say fuck the fashion show and enjoy the ride. I ride 2strokes and wouldn't be a lick faster on a new 450 of any brand so I keep it simple.
dude, i may have agreed with you on the fashionable comment a year ago....but people are getting wiser and 2 strokes are popping up all over the place, slowly, but surely

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