Putting 250T engines into aluminum frame

Flesh206
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Perrys, OH US
10/3/2011 8:17am Edited Date/Time 10/3/2011 8:19am
ehr400 wrote:
Good to see you just rolled out of bed. Believe it or not little guy I have welded 2 guys frames that were doing converstions 3-4...
Good to see you just rolled out of bed. Believe it or not little guy I have welded 2 guys frames that were doing converstions 3-4 years ago. They had everything all set just needed it welded.

You still mad because I banged you mom?
I work while you sleep on nights till 2am, so it evens out.
Erick
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10/3/2011 10:21am
mxtech1 wrote:
I will work on getting a screenshot image, tried to make one but I was having difficulties interfacing the 3d drawing into a jpeg. I found...
I will work on getting a screenshot image, tried to make one but I was having difficulties interfacing the 3d drawing into a jpeg. I found a software on the internet that may work so i need to download that and try it. The frame is still rough in the drawing, I need to go back again with the coordinate measuring machine and put in more detail.

I simulated aersospace grade al that will match the wall thickness found on the factory frame. I was able to find some pretty good parameters for this material through our QC lab at work who had done some work with material similiar in the past. They had some record of rockwell testing, shear strength, torsional strength, and a few strain analysis tests.

As far as material degradation on a used frame, I wouldn't know how else to compare it to new stock other than cutting up a frame and having our QC lab run some tests on it. If you would like to donate a frame for testing I would be more than happy to report back with results Smile

Torsional rigidity is a whole nother beast in itself. It would take some pretty serious equipment, math, and physics to figure out what kind of torsion the frame sees during riding. The tests i did were using forces perpendicular and parallel to the modification. I know more testing could be done, but i gurantee that some of these companies modifying frames aren't even going this deep into their development and they seem to be having good results. I'm glad i did it though because if I wouldn't have seen the y joint needs an inner plug, I probably would have learned a hard lesson the first time.
Do you mind sharing the type of aluminium used in the frame? Because I fear 6000 or 7000 series aluminium is used. These metals have to be heat treated or aged after welding. Otherwise cracks can occur and frame failure is imminent. This is what I mean with material degradation. Are you planning to do that?

About the ridgidity, you could model the existing frame into an FEM analysis and project forces displacements. When you subject similar displacements you get different values. That could be a way of trying to analyse frame ridgidity.
mxtech1
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10/3/2011 10:44am
I'll probably end up using T-6 6061.

Your points are valid about the heat treatment, but I have yet to think that far ahead. I have plans to get with our inhouse weld engineer and bounce some ideas off him to see what steps need to be taken. I'm hopeful he will be able to show some information that would prove heat treatment would not be necessary because I would have to outsource that to a nearby heat treat facility.

Am I putting too much research into this project? I find it hard to believe others are going through so much.
yota
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10/3/2011 1:13pm
these frames I believe were built with 6000 series and I think some parts may have been 7000 series (was discussed at length on the 2 conversion websites). 99% of the conversions are done without heat treating after the conversion and most have held up fine. My frame was re-heat treated and then cooled using some kind of salt spray cool down (I can't remember the details). here is a pic of it after the salt spray.



I worked it over with naval jelly and steel wool and then ran a stainless steel wire brush over it to make it look as stock as I could.

The Shop

yota
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10/3/2011 1:16pm
welding



yota
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10/3/2011 1:18pm
btw, 2003 CR125 frame.
yota
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10/3/2011 1:21pm
Sorry for the following thread hijack...

yota, any chance you might want to sell your '83 XC125?
would have to be a pretty good offer, this was a bike I used to ride and then rehabilitated. has a little history for me.
scooter5002
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10/4/2011 3:21pm
ehr400 wrote:
Hey do you own one of MPS's bikes?
Sort of. I didn't buy a whole bike off him. I took that fuckin' douchebag my frame after a long song and dance, and against my better judgment. I got back a total piece of shit that wouldn't let the motor down between the new motor mounts. Once I got THAT corrected through a lot of grinding, the motor was out of square, to the frame, half the thickness of the swingarm pivot. THINK ABOUT THAT! That's at least 12 to 12 mil! When I called Mr. Retardo about it and explain it, his first response is, and I quote, "You're motor's wrong". Right asshole, Honda took my "wrong" motor off the assembly line when it wouldn't fit the stock frame and COMPLETELY modified a CR500 frame to make that motor work. What an asshole. He doesn't use a jig to weld the frames. Uses empty cases to tack everything in place then pulls the dummy cases and welds everything up. On aluminum tube. Instant distortion waiting to happen. And it does. Nice work. You should see his "mod" for the airboot. Even better than his framework. Wow!
ehr400
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10/5/2011 2:20am
mxtech1 wrote:
I'll probably end up using T-6 6061. Your points are valid about the heat treatment, but I have yet to think that far ahead. I have...
I'll probably end up using T-6 6061.

Your points are valid about the heat treatment, but I have yet to think that far ahead. I have plans to get with our inhouse weld engineer and bounce some ideas off him to see what steps need to be taken. I'm hopeful he will be able to show some information that would prove heat treatment would not be necessary because I would have to outsource that to a nearby heat treat facility.

Am I putting too much research into this project? I find it hard to believe others are going through so much.
I am pretty sure the manufacturers are not re-aging the material after they weld and form them. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely the right way to do it but I can't see the OEM's spending the moeny and re-work that comes after that. Hey yota, were any of your holes off location any after the heat treat process? Just curious if anything swelled or was slightly off after going thru it. In my experiences before we would send them to the aging process with all the tabs and what not welded on then we did the final machining after the heat treat process.
ehr400
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10/5/2011 2:25am
ehr400 wrote:
Hey do you own one of MPS's bikes?
Sort of. I didn't buy a whole bike off him. I took that fuckin' douchebag my frame after a long song and dance, and against my...
Sort of. I didn't buy a whole bike off him. I took that fuckin' douchebag my frame after a long song and dance, and against my better judgment. I got back a total piece of shit that wouldn't let the motor down between the new motor mounts. Once I got THAT corrected through a lot of grinding, the motor was out of square, to the frame, half the thickness of the swingarm pivot. THINK ABOUT THAT! That's at least 12 to 12 mil! When I called Mr. Retardo about it and explain it, his first response is, and I quote, "You're motor's wrong". Right asshole, Honda took my "wrong" motor off the assembly line when it wouldn't fit the stock frame and COMPLETELY modified a CR500 frame to make that motor work. What an asshole. He doesn't use a jig to weld the frames. Uses empty cases to tack everything in place then pulls the dummy cases and welds everything up. On aluminum tube. Instant distortion waiting to happen. And it does. Nice work. You should see his "mod" for the airboot. Even better than his framework. Wow!
Wow! that is fucking B.S.! I wish I would have known you sooner, I would have hooked you up, for free! I went and lookoed at one of his bikes he was selling and was not that impressed. Headstays looked like something a first year machinist in high school would make and the welds on the bottom of the cradle were scary. I have seen Aluminum welds that were alot nicer then his fail before and I was sure as hell not going to spend what he was asking!

Then I found banned 500 riders and found a group of dudes who are cool as fuck and excellent craftsman as well. Plus you can talk technical stuff with them and they are on the same page.

You go to Baja ever? We are going there this sunday for the open ride.
Premixed
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10/5/2011 2:30am
that frame would be tits with about a 93 CR250 motor in it.
Erick
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10/5/2011 3:03am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2011 3:06am
The OEMs do heat treat their frames. Service Honda does too. This is because it is simply required for high strength aluminium. Read any aluminium engineering book and see it for yourself. There are however some aluminium alloys which keep around 90% of their original strength after welding. This material is called 5030 I believe. This material however cannot be combined with 6061 or 7075 for example without heat treatment thus it requirs heat treatment. AJ from Service Honda noted that the frames from Honda are made from 6061 or 6061 for extrusions and 7075 used for forgings. But you have to verify this to be sure.

About your remark about putting to much research in it, you can never put to much research in it. The more you know about it the better and safer your bike can become. Besides you will learn a great deal which you can use in future projects.

What I would do:

0 Literature study about different alloys, fillers, heat treatments and their effects when combined
1 Analyse the original frame material to determine the alloy
2 Design your new frame
3 Ask some expert advice to have a look at your findings
4 Weld it using the proper filler and material
5 Heat treatment
yota
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10/5/2011 3:46am
mxtech1 wrote:
I'll probably end up using T-6 6061. Your points are valid about the heat treatment, but I have yet to think that far ahead. I have...
I'll probably end up using T-6 6061.

Your points are valid about the heat treatment, but I have yet to think that far ahead. I have plans to get with our inhouse weld engineer and bounce some ideas off him to see what steps need to be taken. I'm hopeful he will be able to show some information that would prove heat treatment would not be necessary because I would have to outsource that to a nearby heat treat facility.

Am I putting too much research into this project? I find it hard to believe others are going through so much.
ehr400 wrote:
I am pretty sure the manufacturers are not re-aging the material after they weld and form them. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely the right...
I am pretty sure the manufacturers are not re-aging the material after they weld and form them. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely the right way to do it but I can't see the OEM's spending the moeny and re-work that comes after that. Hey yota, were any of your holes off location any after the heat treat process? Just curious if anything swelled or was slightly off after going thru it. In my experiences before we would send them to the aging process with all the tabs and what not welded on then we did the final machining after the heat treat process.
everything fit perfectly, he used some bracing bolted in to stop warpage, he told me he had problems with that early on but overcame it.
ehr400
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10/5/2011 3:55am
mxtech1 wrote:
I'll probably end up using T-6 6061. Your points are valid about the heat treatment, but I have yet to think that far ahead. I have...
I'll probably end up using T-6 6061.

Your points are valid about the heat treatment, but I have yet to think that far ahead. I have plans to get with our inhouse weld engineer and bounce some ideas off him to see what steps need to be taken. I'm hopeful he will be able to show some information that would prove heat treatment would not be necessary because I would have to outsource that to a nearby heat treat facility.

Am I putting too much research into this project? I find it hard to believe others are going through so much.
ehr400 wrote:
I am pretty sure the manufacturers are not re-aging the material after they weld and form them. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely the right...
I am pretty sure the manufacturers are not re-aging the material after they weld and form them. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely the right way to do it but I can't see the OEM's spending the moeny and re-work that comes after that. Hey yota, were any of your holes off location any after the heat treat process? Just curious if anything swelled or was slightly off after going thru it. In my experiences before we would send them to the aging process with all the tabs and what not welded on then we did the final machining after the heat treat process.
yota wrote:
everything fit perfectly, he used some bracing bolted in to stop warpage, he told me he had problems with that early on but overcame it.
thats cool. Do you have any pics of the finished product? How does it handle with that 125 frame?
Racer92
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10/5/2011 4:17am
Why would anyone want to go away from the proven steel frame? Whats not to like?

Aluminum frames are over rated. Especially frankenstein frames with dangerous stress points.
Premixed
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10/5/2011 4:24am
i can say that the japanese switch to aluminum was production cost based. its cheaper than steel welded frames, because they are using stamped chunks of AL. strictly a cost cutting move by honda in 1997.

i personally think the last RM250 is the best handling two stroke ever made. carmichaels 05 SX bike.

tough call to make. but i can say that the 08+ cr450 frame is better than the 91 CR500 frame, regardless of the material. slimmer, lighter...
ehr400
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10/5/2011 4:38am
Well look at it another way too, how many broken OEM aluminum frames have you seen since they have been the norm? I cant tell you how many steel frame bikes I had that had crushed tubes or cracks in the frame. My buddies the same way.

Even Goose was saying how much longer these Aluminum frames last over the steel counterpart.

Cast aluminum forgings are cheaper and easier to manufacture like premixed said. However some of the other equipment costs more, like bending the extrusions. That is a whole another beast when it somes to bending aluminum vs. steel. Plus welding it in a factory setting requires much tighter part fit as well. You still can see where they do alot of manual re-work on these frames due to the MIG weld not being able to fill a gap or some undercut.
scooter5002
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10/5/2011 6:14am
ehr400 wrote:
Wow! that is fucking B.S.! I wish I would have known you sooner, I would have hooked you up, for free! I went and lookoed at...
Wow! that is fucking B.S.! I wish I would have known you sooner, I would have hooked you up, for free! I went and lookoed at one of his bikes he was selling and was not that impressed. Headstays looked like something a first year machinist in high school would make and the welds on the bottom of the cradle were scary. I have seen Aluminum welds that were alot nicer then his fail before and I was sure as hell not going to spend what he was asking!

Then I found banned 500 riders and found a group of dudes who are cool as fuck and excellent craftsman as well. Plus you can talk technical stuff with them and they are on the same page.

You go to Baja ever? We are going there this sunday for the open ride.
I wish I'd met ANYBODY more capable than Mr. Retardo and with more customer/people skills. Someone like say, oh I don't know, SATANNNNNNNNN?! The headstay. Lol. I forgot about that piece of shit. I knew right away looking at it that it wasn't going to work. Got some good ideas from "banned" though, and my fab guy here is going to make up a new one. Plus clean it up this winter, if not do a full cradle replacement. So it will look OEM. The fab guy I should have gone to in the first place, with 47 years welding and fabbing under his belt. Duh!
I would love to get to Baja this weekend, but I'm moving to Alberta to work in the oil patch at the end of month. I just won't have the time. Sure loved that track when I saw it at the Baja Brawl though. I will be home for 10 days every month however, so I WILL be getting there next year for sure. We will hook up for a ride for sure.
mxtech1
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10/5/2011 6:19am
Racer92 wrote:
Why would anyone want to go away from the proven steel frame? Whats not to like? Aluminum frames are over rated. Especially frankenstein frames with dangerous...
Why would anyone want to go away from the proven steel frame? Whats not to like?

Aluminum frames are over rated. Especially frankenstein frames with dangerous stress points.
From my aspect it's not so much about steel vs. AF. I would love to go out and buy a 2012 ktm250sx, but I can't afford that right now. I love my 2005 RM250, but it's just getting tired. I've rebuilt the thing from the frame up twice in the last 4 years, with engine rebuilds all 4 years. I would like to be on a new (newer) bike so to me it makes sense to utilize the equipment I already have from my RM and start building on a 2009+ RMZ250 platform. If I can get a good price on a roller, the project should come in well under $2,000. $2,000 is alot more affordable than a $7,000 loan for a new bike.

If you want to see some dangerous mechanical issues, pick a race on any given sunday and go look at what the C class riders are working with.
Erick
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10/5/2011 7:41am
You could also gusset your existing steel frame and change your suspension. For 2000 maybe you can get an A kit somewhere on eBay. Or some Sölva or Öhlins. If you set it for your weight you have a real weapon of mass destruction. I think you have more value for your money that way.
yota
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10/5/2011 9:27am
ehr400 wrote:
I am pretty sure the manufacturers are not re-aging the material after they weld and form them. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely the right...
I am pretty sure the manufacturers are not re-aging the material after they weld and form them. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely the right way to do it but I can't see the OEM's spending the moeny and re-work that comes after that. Hey yota, were any of your holes off location any after the heat treat process? Just curious if anything swelled or was slightly off after going thru it. In my experiences before we would send them to the aging process with all the tabs and what not welded on then we did the final machining after the heat treat process.
yota wrote:
everything fit perfectly, he used some bracing bolted in to stop warpage, he told me he had problems with that early on but overcame it.
ehr400 wrote:
thats cool. Do you have any pics of the finished product? How does it handle with that 125 frame?
It handles like 10 times better than it did when it was in the old chassis but that may be more the newer suspension and components and the lighter overall weight (although I weighed both frames and there wasn't much difference in weight).
I don't moto anymore though, only off road.

CR500Rider
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10/5/2011 9:58am
yota wrote:
this is the billet Y used on my 500 conversion. [IMG]http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q201/devrep/09%20CR500Af/ys0021-1.jpg[/IMG]
this is the billet Y used on my 500 conversion.

You're a lucky man to get your parts.
c3011
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10/5/2011 10:52am
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys...
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys off to the tune of some 30 Grand that can be accounted for. Be grateful you weren't one of them. Hit the site. Fellow on there Solid Bro MIGHT be able to hook you up. He does fab work on his own, but maybe he would crank out some of those for you. The guys work is AWESOME! Unlike Monsieur George "I'm A Retard" Fanelli.
Just trying to follow your posting, is the Team Trubble guy George or a completely separate operation?
ehr400
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10/5/2011 11:08am
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys...
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys off to the tune of some 30 Grand that can be accounted for. Be grateful you weren't one of them. Hit the site. Fellow on there Solid Bro MIGHT be able to hook you up. He does fab work on his own, but maybe he would crank out some of those for you. The guys work is AWESOME! Unlike Monsieur George "I'm A Retard" Fanelli.
c3011 wrote:
Just trying to follow your posting, is the Team Trubble guy George or a completely separate operation?
Seperate operation.
scooter5002
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10/5/2011 12:59pm
Team Trubble was a guy by the name of Mike Fachar ( last name pronounced Gfuckingahole, the G is silent) from Cali. George Fanelli, aka Mr. Retardo, douchebag, etc. etc. ad infinitum, is based in Toledo Ohio. His business, and I use that term VERY loosely, is called MPS, Maumee Power Sports. He is on the web, but I would SERIOUSLY recommend against doing any dealings with him. Unless getting your stuff back totally unusable and having to pay someone ELSE to fix his handiwork is your idea of "Great Deal". God help your soul if you go down the road I did. Nobody forewarned me. There's people on "bannedCR500riders.com that are cranking out TOP-NOTCH stuff out of their garage as a sideline. Fanelli has a business turning out grade 9 high school projects. Charging top dollar as well. Just a thief in my mind.
ehr400
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10/5/2011 4:22pm
Team Trubble was a guy by the name of Mike Fachar ( last name pronounced Gfuckingahole, the G is silent) from Cali. George Fanelli, aka Mr...
Team Trubble was a guy by the name of Mike Fachar ( last name pronounced Gfuckingahole, the G is silent) from Cali. George Fanelli, aka Mr. Retardo, douchebag, etc. etc. ad infinitum, is based in Toledo Ohio. His business, and I use that term VERY loosely, is called MPS, Maumee Power Sports. He is on the web, but I would SERIOUSLY recommend against doing any dealings with him. Unless getting your stuff back totally unusable and having to pay someone ELSE to fix his handiwork is your idea of "Great Deal". God help your soul if you go down the road I did. Nobody forewarned me. There's people on "bannedCR500riders.com that are cranking out TOP-NOTCH stuff out of their garage as a sideline. Fanelli has a business turning out grade 9 high school projects. Charging top dollar as well. Just a thief in my mind.
LMFAO!
mxpunk
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10/5/2011 9:11pm
Racer92 wrote:
Why would anyone want to go away from the proven steel frame? Whats not to like? Aluminum frames are over rated. Especially frankenstein frames with dangerous...
Why would anyone want to go away from the proven steel frame? Whats not to like?

Aluminum frames are over rated. Especially frankenstein frames with dangerous stress points.
mxtech1 wrote:
From my aspect it's not so much about steel vs. AF. I would love to go out and buy a 2012 ktm250sx, but I can't afford...
From my aspect it's not so much about steel vs. AF. I would love to go out and buy a 2012 ktm250sx, but I can't afford that right now. I love my 2005 RM250, but it's just getting tired. I've rebuilt the thing from the frame up twice in the last 4 years, with engine rebuilds all 4 years. I would like to be on a new (newer) bike so to me it makes sense to utilize the equipment I already have from my RM and start building on a 2009+ RMZ250 platform. If I can get a good price on a roller, the project should come in well under $2,000. $2,000 is alot more affordable than a $7,000 loan for a new bike.

If you want to see some dangerous mechanical issues, pick a race on any given sunday and go look at what the C class riders are working with.
do you actually notice the frame feeling clapped out??

would you consider buying a new frame to give it that "Refreshed" feeling??

my 03 rm125 and 04 rm250 were the best turning bikes ive had and i want to get another but im intrigued by those saying their steel frames are cracking/strressing

does this happen only with heavy or extremely fast riders?

if i picked up a 04 rm250 that was ridden here and there and moto'd on it for the next year or two (im a C rider) would the frame start to stress?


do any of you AF conversion guys see any stress after a few months of moto?
Racerx930
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10/5/2011 9:30pm


Did my 500 conversion myself. There's a lot of guys out there who think they are the only ones out there who can build these things. If I can do it, anyone! can do it.
scooter5002
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10/7/2011 5:12am
Want to see how it's SUPPOSED to be done? Go to banned site, click on A/F section. New posting from GTS Fabworks. Now there's some craftsmanship right there. Also something known as pride in your product. Do mi ora gotto, Mr Retardo. I know you're reading this. Read 'em and weep. Suck it pal!
ehr400
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10/7/2011 5:20am
I agree there is some very nice craftsmanship on there. That is what is about, not seeing how many you can pump out.

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