Leatt cease & desist vs A-Stars?

newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
9/1/2011 12:58pm
so apple should sue microsoft? and ford should sue chevy? its all about the $$$. start losing it and you gotta dig deep to get it...
so apple should sue microsoft? and ford should sue chevy?

its all about the $$$. start losing it and you gotta dig deep to get it back. pathetic. like i said, if they performed the same exact way, as in if Astars stole the actual design and mechanics, crumble rates, and so on, then ok. but they are completely different braces.
hopefully astars reaches in their deeper pockets and fights it all the way. might uncover some truth. and someone might decide it wasnt such a good idea and drop it.

and lets not turn this into a debate thread. itll only get ugly fast.
All about money? Yessir, you've got that right. Big company sits back and lets the little company gamble big money developing a product. Big company rips design, makes cheap product and sells for big $$$. It really is about the money as you put it.
newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
9/1/2011 1:02pm
mxrose3 wrote:
and if Gottlieb Daimler would have patented the motorcycle back in 1885 we'd probably all still be riding dirt bikes with 4 inches of dual shock...
and if Gottlieb Daimler would have patented the motorcycle back in 1885 we'd probably all still be riding dirt bikes with 4 inches of dual shock suspension. The Leatt is an unfinished product and still behind where it should be. I'm just saying this is an area of the sport that needs advancing, and it needs it quick. All this shit is just slowing it down.
newmann wrote:
This whole sport is so behind the times it isn't funny. Helmet mfg's. are afraid to change helmet design when test standards resemble dropping a bowling...
This whole sport is so behind the times it isn't funny. Helmet mfg's. are afraid to change helmet design when test standards resemble dropping a bowling ball from ten feet up. Chest protector? Whoops, no such thing because someone might get sued. Better to not try and improve anything and just refer to it as a "roost protector" from 1979 forward. Leatt stepped up, Alpinestars didn't. Leatt has made design changes from what I've read here and probably will continue to make changes as their research warrants. A-Stars.....research? Someone please throw all of their research up here for us to digest. Probably would include lots of Leatt photos.LOL
sorry newmann, but thats about all leatt has to show is a photo...
Got A Stars research ?
bearded clam
Posts
225
Joined
12/16/2010
Location
Phelan, CA, USA
9/1/2011 1:14pm
Ramrod wrote:
What this guy said!

Any of you guys have any business sense at all or just love making wild speculations?
I can understand that w companys like apple but when it comes to saftey gear the more the better. We need choices...just like helmets, boots and...
I can understand that w companys like apple but when it comes to saftey gear the more the better. We need choices...just like helmets, boots and knee braces.
This makes me question weather Leatt is really concerned for rider saftey or there pocket books.
CamP wrote:
At the risk of repeating myself, spend $5,000,000 of your own money inventing/developing a new product and I'm sure you'll change your tune when the copycat...
At the risk of repeating myself, spend $5,000,000 of your own money inventing/developing a new product and I'm sure you'll change your tune when the copycat companies start ripping you off.
Are you calling Astars a copy cat company LOL??
At the risk of repeating myself we need choices when it comes to saftey gear.
It sure would be nice if companys had no competition but thats not the real world.
Leatt may have spent some bucks but does that mean no one else should be able to produce there own brace? When Henry Ford built the first car...do you also think that cause he spent big bucks there shouldnt have been anyone else allowed to build cars?
And to the dude who mentioned the patient Honda had on the front brake line...this situation could more accuratly compared to honda having a patent on the motocross bike. How would it be if all we had was Honda mxers?
Bottom line...leatt is being greedy and it will affect the progress of making these braces better. Instead of sueing others they should focus on making the best brace possible and people will buy their product. Instead of bettering there product they sue and spend there time and money trying to keep others from building quality saftey gear.
We all have our opinion...mine is leatt need to make a better brace rather than sue people!
9/1/2011 1:19pm
newmann wrote:
This whole sport is so behind the times it isn't funny. Helmet mfg's. are afraid to change helmet design when test standards resemble dropping a bowling...
This whole sport is so behind the times it isn't funny. Helmet mfg's. are afraid to change helmet design when test standards resemble dropping a bowling ball from ten feet up. Chest protector? Whoops, no such thing because someone might get sued. Better to not try and improve anything and just refer to it as a "roost protector" from 1979 forward. Leatt stepped up, Alpinestars didn't. Leatt has made design changes from what I've read here and probably will continue to make changes as their research warrants. A-Stars.....research? Someone please throw all of their research up here for us to digest. Probably would include lots of Leatt photos.LOL
sorry newmann, but thats about all leatt has to show is a photo...
newmann wrote:
Got A Stars research ?
nope. not from them either. sad i know. whats the big secret these guys are hiding? i dont get it.

The Shop

9/1/2011 1:22pm
Are you calling Astars a copy cat company LOL?? At the risk of repeating myself we need choices when it comes to saftey gear. It sure...
Are you calling Astars a copy cat company LOL??
At the risk of repeating myself we need choices when it comes to saftey gear.
It sure would be nice if companys had no competition but thats not the real world.
Leatt may have spent some bucks but does that mean no one else should be able to produce there own brace? When Henry Ford built the first car...do you also think that cause he spent big bucks there shouldnt have been anyone else allowed to build cars?
And to the dude who mentioned the patient Honda had on the front brake line...this situation could more accuratly compared to honda having a patent on the motocross bike. How would it be if all we had was Honda mxers?
Bottom line...leatt is being greedy and it will affect the progress of making these braces better. Instead of sueing others they should focus on making the best brace possible and people will buy their product. Instead of bettering there product they sue and spend there time and money trying to keep others from building quality saftey gear.
We all have our opinion...mine is leatt need to make a better brace rather than sue people!
i completely agree. leatt also says they are working with companies to establish a "guideline" for neck brace certification. whats the point if noone else is allowed to make one? all theyre gonna do is base it off their design anyways. doesnt mean its a good guideline.
newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
9/1/2011 1:26pm
so apple should sue microsoft? and ford should sue chevy? its all about the $$$. start losing it and you gotta dig deep to get it...
so apple should sue microsoft? and ford should sue chevy?

its all about the $$$. start losing it and you gotta dig deep to get it back. pathetic. like i said, if they performed the same exact way, as in if Astars stole the actual design and mechanics, crumble rates, and so on, then ok. but they are completely different braces.
hopefully astars reaches in their deeper pockets and fights it all the way. might uncover some truth. and someone might decide it wasnt such a good idea and drop it.

and lets not turn this into a debate thread. itll only get ugly fast.
Customer wrecks his Ford truck with a single flashing arrow in the outside mirror. Mirror requires replacement. Replacement mirror has two rows of flashing signal arrows. Customer is pissed that mirrors no longer match and his insurance company won't buy another $500.00 mirror for the other side so they will match. What gives? Ford can't even provide their own customers matching parts because their suppliers have copyrighted or design patents.

Buy a Ford Explorer and it comes with aluminum front fenders. Buy a replacement fender from Ford, it's steel.

Ever see a 1992-2000(01-02?) Suburban or Tahoe driving down the road with one green and one black privacy tinted rear door glasses? GM can't even provide a matching piece of glass for their own vehicles.

These companies need to worry about some of their own in house patent issues before they get too concerned about others.
CamP
Posts
6826
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Colleyville, TX, USA
9/1/2011 1:27pm
i completely agree. leatt also says they are working with companies to establish a "guideline" for neck brace certification. whats the point if noone else is...
i completely agree. leatt also says they are working with companies to establish a "guideline" for neck brace certification. whats the point if noone else is allowed to make one? all theyre gonna do is base it off their design anyways. doesnt mean its a good guideline.
Other companies will still be able to make braces. They will just have to pay Leatt a royalty because they are all copying how the Leatt brace works. .
Tbteam
Posts
2865
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Ormond Beach, FL, USA
9/1/2011 1:28pm
I wonder if there would even BE an A-Stars brace if there had never been a Leatt?
CamP
Posts
6826
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Colleyville, TX, USA
9/1/2011 1:39pm
I can understand that w companys like apple but when it comes to saftey gear the more the better. We need choices...just like helmets, boots and...
I can understand that w companys like apple but when it comes to saftey gear the more the better. We need choices...just like helmets, boots and knee braces.
This makes me question weather Leatt is really concerned for rider saftey or there pocket books.
CamP wrote:
At the risk of repeating myself, spend $5,000,000 of your own money inventing/developing a new product and I'm sure you'll change your tune when the copycat...
At the risk of repeating myself, spend $5,000,000 of your own money inventing/developing a new product and I'm sure you'll change your tune when the copycat companies start ripping you off.
Are you calling Astars a copy cat company LOL?? At the risk of repeating myself we need choices when it comes to saftey gear. It sure...
Are you calling Astars a copy cat company LOL??
At the risk of repeating myself we need choices when it comes to saftey gear.
It sure would be nice if companys had no competition but thats not the real world.
Leatt may have spent some bucks but does that mean no one else should be able to produce there own brace? When Henry Ford built the first car...do you also think that cause he spent big bucks there shouldnt have been anyone else allowed to build cars?
And to the dude who mentioned the patient Honda had on the front brake line...this situation could more accuratly compared to honda having a patent on the motocross bike. How would it be if all we had was Honda mxers?
Bottom line...leatt is being greedy and it will affect the progress of making these braces better. Instead of sueing others they should focus on making the best brace possible and people will buy their product. Instead of bettering there product they sue and spend there time and money trying to keep others from building quality saftey gear.
We all have our opinion...mine is leatt need to make a better brace rather than sue people!
Yes, Alpinestars copied the Leatt and based on the judgment from the lawsuit, it looks like Aplinestars will be paying Leatt a royalty if they want to continue to sell their BNS.
newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
9/1/2011 1:40pm
Tbteam wrote:
I wonder if there would even BE an A-Stars brace if there had never been a Leatt?
Doubtful. Still be neck donuts only.
velocitygear
Posts
557
Joined
10/8/2009
Location
Spokane, WA, USA
9/1/2011 1:45pm
unfortunately, I only see greed when looking at the "iconic" companies. Yes, A-stars most certainly copied the leatt, at least the idea. I am not 100% sure but I'm pretty sure A-stars did the same thing with their Airbag, which may be a copy of the Dainese system. Both systems are a waste for the everyday motorcyclist, the cost is outrageous.

there are european standards for many pieces of protective apparel, the "icons" stay away from these standards because it will only cost them more money to develop "better" products. customer's lack of knowledge in this area is exactly what the "industry" prefers...

i have heard of leatt's dumping of all distributors once davids video came out, so leatt has about just as much "integrity" as the rest of them.
9/1/2011 2:13pm
newmann wrote:
Customer wrecks his Ford truck with a single flashing arrow in the outside mirror. Mirror requires replacement. Replacement mirror has two rows of flashing signal arrows...
Customer wrecks his Ford truck with a single flashing arrow in the outside mirror. Mirror requires replacement. Replacement mirror has two rows of flashing signal arrows. Customer is pissed that mirrors no longer match and his insurance company won't buy another $500.00 mirror for the other side so they will match. What gives? Ford can't even provide their own customers matching parts because their suppliers have copyrighted or design patents.

Buy a Ford Explorer and it comes with aluminum front fenders. Buy a replacement fender from Ford, it's steel.

Ever see a 1992-2000(01-02?) Suburban or Tahoe driving down the road with one green and one black privacy tinted rear door glasses? GM can't even provide a matching piece of glass for their own vehicles.

These companies need to worry about some of their own in house patent issues before they get too concerned about others.
i use to be in the bodyshop business. glad i got outa that mess when i did. lol. you aint lying. try explaining that stuff to the customer.
velocitygear
Posts
557
Joined
10/8/2009
Location
Spokane, WA, USA
9/1/2011 2:32pm
newmann wrote:
Customer wrecks his Ford truck with a single flashing arrow in the outside mirror. Mirror requires replacement. Replacement mirror has two rows of flashing signal arrows...
Customer wrecks his Ford truck with a single flashing arrow in the outside mirror. Mirror requires replacement. Replacement mirror has two rows of flashing signal arrows. Customer is pissed that mirrors no longer match and his insurance company won't buy another $500.00 mirror for the other side so they will match. What gives? Ford can't even provide their own customers matching parts because their suppliers have copyrighted or design patents.

Buy a Ford Explorer and it comes with aluminum front fenders. Buy a replacement fender from Ford, it's steel.

Ever see a 1992-2000(01-02?) Suburban or Tahoe driving down the road with one green and one black privacy tinted rear door glasses? GM can't even provide a matching piece of glass for their own vehicles.

These companies need to worry about some of their own in house patent issues before they get too concerned about others.
i use to be in the bodyshop business. glad i got outa that mess when i did. lol. you aint lying. try explaining that stuff to...
i use to be in the bodyshop business. glad i got outa that mess when i did. lol. you aint lying. try explaining that stuff to the customer.
you said it "GMC"-------- owning an 07 gives me a new found understanding of "american quality"... unreal...
424
Posts
80
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
9/1/2011 3:59pm
Without patent laws many products we have today would never have been developed. Investors don't won't to spend money on R&D, prototypes, manufacturing start-up , etc. only to have Joe Blow copy it and have none of the initial expenses. Investors are more likely to fork out if there is some protection for them.

It would make good business sense for Leatt to have money coming in from A-Stars and others.

There is also good money in simply creating product and selling the patent without ever producing beyond prototype.

btw there is also a pissing contest over the holeshot device.
peelout
Posts
18382
Joined
1/6/2011
Location
Ogden, UT, USA
9/1/2011 4:04pm
didn't Alpinestar sue Oxtar (now TCX) because their name sounded like it had "STAR" in it?

i can't remember the exact story, but a friend of mine is a rep for TCX (Oxtar) and was when they changed names and told me. i'm an alcoholic though so...
newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
9/1/2011 4:04pm
424 wrote:
Without patent laws many products we have today would never have been developed. Investors don't won't to spend money on R&D, prototypes, manufacturing start-up , etc...
Without patent laws many products we have today would never have been developed. Investors don't won't to spend money on R&D, prototypes, manufacturing start-up , etc. only to have Joe Blow copy it and have none of the initial expenses. Investors are more likely to fork out if there is some protection for them.

It would make good business sense for Leatt to have money coming in from A-Stars and others.

There is also good money in simply creating product and selling the patent without ever producing beyond prototype.

btw there is also a pissing contest over the holeshot device.
There were holeshot devices in use back in the 70's. Tom Benolkins brother built and installed one on Tom's 79 CR125 that used a lever and cable. Conventional forks required a completely different approach. Still though it provided the same feature. MXA had an article about someone else from the 70's with one also.
9/1/2011 4:12pm
the part that doesnt make sense to me is that they both dont perform the same.
jdj727
Posts
68
Joined
11/3/2009
Location
Phelan, CA, USA
9/1/2011 4:19pm
I dont care who copys my shit.. If I make the best my shit sells period so I dont care what they copy..Cream always rises to the top...
wawazat
Posts
816
Joined
5/6/2011
Location
Corona, CA, USA
9/1/2011 5:39pm
Couple thoughts on this topic..

So if who ever invented the first full face helmet had a patent on it where would we be? I don't know zilch about it, but was just thinking about it..

Leatt not changing their brace may have to do with opening themselves up to a lawsuit. If the product was flawed in design and they make a change, does that open them up to be sued by customers who were hurt while wearing one?

Pantent laws are weird, cause from my understanding you only have to change a minimal amount to an existing product to get your own pantent.
velocitygear
Posts
557
Joined
10/8/2009
Location
Spokane, WA, USA
9/1/2011 6:25pm Edited Date/Time 9/1/2011 6:28pm
the importance of patents is to reward the inventor, which is sensible. Patents do not last forever, that's when other companies can officially copy them without fear of recourse, or be UPSTANDING and pay for the rights to begin with!! A stars ands the rest consider "copying" and product infringement a part of business. Sure they'll get slapped but overall they've made a boat-load of cash and can pay for the "rights" as they should have to begin with.
In addition, if they're dirtball lawyers are good enough, they may not have to pay anything!
haydos25
Posts
1688
Joined
8/4/2010
Location
Sydney, AU
9/1/2011 6:27pm
wawazat wrote:
Couple thoughts on this topic.. So if who ever invented the first full face helmet had a patent on it where would we be? I don't...
Couple thoughts on this topic..

So if who ever invented the first full face helmet had a patent on it where would we be? I don't know zilch about it, but was just thinking about it..

Leatt not changing their brace may have to do with opening themselves up to a lawsuit. If the product was flawed in design and they make a change, does that open them up to be sued by customers who were hurt while wearing one?

Pantent laws are weird, cause from my understanding you only have to change a minimal amount to an existing product to get your own pantent.
I own a Leatt, will never ride without it, thats my decision. I was never once told by the dealer that they were the 100% cure to all neck related injuries and i've never gone riding thinking that way. I cant see how a change in design would open them up to litigation at all, thats like saying anyone who is injured in a car accident can sue the manufacturer when they bring out a new model with upgraded safety features, because there old car didnt have that curtain airbag or upgraded crumple zone.

My understanding is that Leatt are not trying to stop astars or omega or whoever from producing there own brace, they are just trying to get a return from the investment they put into the original research in developing the product, they created the market and the design, astars saw it as a good idea and swopped with there own version. Nothing wrong with that either, but a price has to be paid.

I think this is a positive move, another revenue stream for leat can only help speed up the improvement and design of their product for our benefit, and it may also cause astars themselves to put a bit more effort into there own design process.
hewes013
Posts
11
Joined
6/29/2011
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
9/1/2011 8:17pm Edited Date/Time 9/1/2011 8:35pm
The funny thing is Leatt is making a big deal about this when they are not the ones that thought of this they copied the Hahns device from car racing> So now it will be funny if they get sued by Hahns . Whats next GoPro suing Epic
The Universe
Posts
621
Joined
3/12/2011
Location
Bellingham, WA, USA
9/1/2011 8:24pm
CamP wrote:
Spend $5,000,000 of your own money inventing/developing a new product and I'm sure you'll change your tune when the copycat companies start ripping you off.
That $5M investment surely has produced mounds of data they'd be willing to share with the moto-going public.
Shenzi
Posts
2693
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
SWFL, FL, USA
Fantasy
9/1/2011 8:25pm
unfortunately, I only see greed when looking at the "iconic" companies. Yes, A-stars most certainly copied the leatt, at least the idea. I am not 100%...
unfortunately, I only see greed when looking at the "iconic" companies. Yes, A-stars most certainly copied the leatt, at least the idea. I am not 100% sure but I'm pretty sure A-stars did the same thing with their Airbag, which may be a copy of the Dainese system. Both systems are a waste for the everyday motorcyclist, the cost is outrageous.

there are european standards for many pieces of protective apparel, the "icons" stay away from these standards because it will only cost them more money to develop "better" products. customer's lack of knowledge in this area is exactly what the "industry" prefers...

i have heard of leatt's dumping of all distributors once davids video came out, so leatt has about just as much "integrity" as the rest of them.
Little precision here, since I have been involved with the Dainese D-Air since 2008.

The D-Air suit is NOT made for everyday motorcyclists, it is a track suit, working to prevent injuries mostly in high-side and low-side situations. An electronic system using gyro sensors.
Our suit has been commercialized for the 1st time this year, 300 units to start with - Suits are expensive of course because they have to be custom-made (but we have been selling custom-made $3K+ suits for quite a while (yes, we have a good number of customers who can spend that money). The D-Air isn't that expensive in comparison.

Regarding the everyday motorcyclist, our D-Air Street is its final testing mode (used by the Italian police on their Multistrada and BMWs motorcycle since the Giro - Tour of Italy - this year). The D-Air Street is an electronic system too, helping prevent injuries in impact situation against a vehicle or ground.

Did Alpinestars copied our D-Air suit? A system we have been testing for the past 10 years? Maybe they copied the concept, but our systems are very different.The size of the airbag itself, the size of the protected area, are different.
9/1/2011 8:31pm
hewes013 wrote:
The funny thing is Leatt is making a big deal about this when they are not the ones that thought of this they copied the Hahns...
The funny thing is Leatt is making a big deal about this when they are not the ones that thought of this they copied the Hahns device from car racing> So now it will be funny if they get sued by Hahns . Whats next GoPro suing Epic
shhhh. everyone thinks its made for moto.
skidsteer16
Posts
2122
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Lakewood, CO, USA
9/1/2011 8:44pm Edited Date/Time 9/1/2011 10:40pm
How anyone can attack Leatt, or any company, for trying to protect/get paid for their intellectual property is just beyond me.


Also, the Leatt brace is nothing like a HANS device!
hewes013
Posts
11
Joined
6/29/2011
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
9/1/2011 8:49pm
its neck protection isn't it so to me they copied
9/1/2011 8:51pm
How anyone can attack Leatt, or any company, for trying to protect/get paid for their intellectual property is just beyond me. Also, the Leatt brace is...
How anyone can attack Leatt, or any company, for trying to protect/get paid for their intellectual property is just beyond me.


Also, the Leatt brace is nothing like a HANS device!
there design came from car racing. so whatever that means.
jmar
Posts
14154
Joined
2/11/2007
Location
Oklahoma City, OK, USA
9/1/2011 8:54pm
TeamGreen wrote:
There's this place in Virginia...it's called the "Patent Office"...

There's a Document FIled and "Numbered" in that Office.

That Document will decide this issue.
That document and a host of Attorney's.
9/1/2011 9:05pm
so im assuming the hans patent ran out...
funny thing is, there is another brace similar to these, defnder, and leatt sued them. but hans hasnt sued leatt.






Post a reply to: Leatt cease & desist vs A-Stars?

The Latest