picking prayor over docs

God's Help!

There once was a flood and everyone had reached safety except for one man.

He climbed to the top of his house with the water lapping at his feet.

A helicopter flew over his head and hung down a rope for him to climb, but the man was deeply religious and said, "It's alright! The Lord will save me!"

So the helicopter flew away. The water continued to rise and a boat came to him but, once again, the man shouted, "No! Go AWAY! the Lord will come and save me!" and, once again, the boat sped off.

The water was getting dangerously deep by now so the helicopter came back and, on cue, the man repeated, "I don't need saving! My Lord will come"

Reluctantly, the helicopter left.

The rain continued to pour, the water continued to rise and the man drowned.

At the gates of heaven, the man met St. Peter. Confused, he asked, "Peter, I have lived the life of a faithful man - why did my Lord not rescue me?"

St. Peter replied, "For pity sake! He sent you two helicopters and a boat!"

Author Unknown

We need to hang those nutty fuckers!

How's that not child abuse again?

Neglect?

Pfff, it's fucking ridiculous how religion can get a free pass on this crap.

[quote="mototwo78":242jum28]How's that not child abuse again?

Neglect?

Pfff, it's fucking ridiculous how religion can get a free pass on this crap.[/quote:242jum28]

No religion involved here, the wife even says they do not belong to any organized religion. Just plain ignorance and stupidity.
The other children should be taken out of that home ASAP.

[quote="Dirty Britches":kl3m0uev]WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor. [/quote:kl3m0uev]
As I recall the same kinda thing happened to this child actress:

[img:kl3m0uev]http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/9589/poltergeistjx4.jpg[/img:kl3m0uev]

It's pretty easy to sit back and armchair quarterback these people. In the past ten years, I've seen more kids than I even want to think about brought to the hospital in comas, near death, and even dead. None of them because of religion.......just because the parents didn't know........and in fact, in many cases, it's just as likely a doctor would have missed it. People have somehow got this idea in their head that a hospital is this miraculous bastion of instant health, and that through the miracle of PHD achievment, this "doctor" is going to fix everything. Fact is........it's all bullshit. Here's reality folks........that doctor probably graduated from the Institute De Medicino in the Cayman Islands, has his appt's booked for the entire day with 10 minutes alloted for patient face time and 5 minutes for notes. He's probably seen 10 people that day already with the same symptoms, and he's just as likely to prescribe rest, fluids and order up some lab tests as immediately peg an 11 yr old with diabetes. The plain fact of life is, most of our medical system is so overwhelmed and overburdened, that one who eschews it is no less nor more likely to have a successful or negative outcome.

Yeah, it's sad.......but don't think for a minute that this shit doesn't happen to "regular" folks as well. It just doen't make the news because people just love to point fingers at others and call them freaks and horrible, just because they chose to live their life a little bit different than you or I. What's a greater crime? These parents, who by all accounts deeply loved their child but chose a different path..........or the insurance system that will deny a life saving treatment to a child, forcing a family to leave their child in a hospital, slowly dying while they watch, knowing that their child could have survived........and all the while being saddled with a huge debt that they will never possibly pay off.

Yep, it's OK to trash a man for his beliefs, but lets ignore the fuckers who kill in the name of saving a buck.

ewb, no doubt docs miss stuff. So do parents. But, no way will the success rate of prayer match that of medicine for cures, in this case diabetes. To consciously turn your back on medicine in lieu of prayer is just stupidity.

[quote="xewbx":16n5jsir]It's pretty easy to sit back and armchair quarterback these people. In the past ten years, I've seen more kids than I even want to think about brought to the hospital in comas, near death, and even dead. None of them because of religion.......just because the parents didn't know........and in fact, in many cases, it's just as likely a doctor would have missed it. People have somehow got this idea in their head that a hospital is this miraculous bastion of instant health, and that through the miracle of PHD achievment, this "doctor" is going to fix everything. Fact is........it's all bullshit. Here's reality folks........that doctor probably graduated from the Institute De Medicino in the Cayman Islands, has his appt's booked for the entire day with 10 minutes alloted for patient face time and 5 minutes for notes. He's probably seen 10 people that day already with the same symptoms, and he's just as likely to prescribe rest, fluids and order up some lab tests as immediately peg an 11 yr old with diabetes. The plain fact of life is, most of our medical system is so overwhelmed and overburdened, that one who eschews it is no less nor more likely to have a successful or negative outcome.

Yeah, it's sad.......but don't think for a minute that this shit doesn't happen to "regular" folks as well. It just doen't make the news because people just love to point fingers at others and call them freaks and horrible, just because they chose to live their life a little bit different than you or I. What's a greater crime? These parents, who by all accounts deeply loved their child but chose a different path..........or the insurance system that will deny a life saving treatment to a child, forcing a family to leave their child in a hospital, slowly dying while they watch, knowing that their child could have survived........and all the while being saddled with a huge debt that they will never possibly pay off.

Yep, it's OK to trash a man for his beliefs, but lets ignore the fuckers who kill in the name of saving a buck.[/quote:16n5jsir]


PHD achievement? What sort of doctor are you talking about?

And having just went through the juvenile diabetes diagnosis dealio just this last month, it's pretty clear to me that a doctor CAN catch it......

[quote="jtomasik":8d0d3n5z]ewb, no doubt docs miss stuff. So do parents. But, no way will the success rate of prayer match that of medicine for cures. To consciously turn your back on medicine in lieu of prayer is just stupidity.[/quote:8d0d3n5z]

Not saying that at all, not even close. I'm saying that with something like this........assuming access to an average county, city, or state hospital, or clinic.........realistically, the odds are not overwhelmingly against the exact same outcome. It's much easier after the fact, once an isulin death has occured.......to say this child needlessly died from a treatable illness, than it is to start with those symptoms and identify the illness that needs to be treated.

Do you take your child to the doctor every time they aren't hungry or feel tired? Or puke? Most people don't. For some people, it would probably be about a week of intermittent nausea, vomitting, and excessive tiredness, a family in overall excellent health with children who had never been sick, they might go two weeks......of course, with a young child and diabetes, the symptons could have come and gone......giving the appearance of recovery. Even after a week, the parents could have made an appointment to see a doc, and unless there's a family history, or other specific indicators......he's probably not going to assume diabetes right off the bat. At this point, your at 50/50 whether or not he'll order lab tests, which at a typical facility, take anywhere from a few days to over a week.......and the doc is probably not going to order it stat. By the time the lab tests come back, and the doc is notified of the results.......and in turn notifies the parents.......that kid is already in the danger zone.

The bottom line is.......it's just bullshit for people to jump on this "send the fuckers to jail" bandwagon, when there is not one single iota of evidence that the outcome would have been one bit different.

Besides.......you can't very well be a Libertarian and at the same time support government regulation dictating mandatory doctor visits, which is exactly what people are asking for when they condemn somebody for choosing, for whatever reason, not to take a child to the doctor.

It took about 3 minutes to get the test results back from my daughter's trip.....

2 minutes and 45 seconds for the nurse to come in after the doc told her to get a reading, and another 15 seconds to get the blood spot and a reading from the meter.....

[quote="xewbx":2xs67ir4] .

Yeah, it's sad.......but don't think for a minute that this shit doesn't happen to "regular" folks as well. It just doen't make the news because people just love to point fingers at others and call them freaks and horrible, just because they chose to live their life a little bit different than you or I. What's a greater crime? These parents, who by all accounts deeply loved their child but chose a different path..........[b:2xs67ir4]or the insurance system that will deny a life saving treatment to a child, forcing a family to leave their child in a hospital, slowly dying while they watch, knowing that their child could have survived........and all the while being saddled with a huge debt that they will never possibly pay off.[/b:2xs67ir4]
Yep, it's OK to trash a man for his beliefs, but lets ignore the fuckers who kill in the name of saving a buck.[/quote:2xs67ir4]

Does this mean you're in favor of universal health care? " title="Laughing">

[quote="APLMAN":249po21l][quote="xewbx":249po21l]It's pretty easy to sit back and armchair quarterback these people. In the past ten years, I've seen more kids than I even want to think about brought to the hospital in comas, near death, and even dead. None of them because of religion.......just because the parents didn't know........and in fact, in many cases, it's just as likely a doctor would have missed it. People have somehow got this idea in their head that a hospital is this miraculous bastion of instant health, and that through the miracle of PHD achievment, this "doctor" is going to fix everything. Fact is........it's all bullshit. Here's reality folks........that doctor probably graduated from the Institute De Medicino in the Cayman Islands, has his appt's booked for the entire day with 10 minutes alloted for patient face time and 5 minutes for notes. He's probably seen 10 people that day already with the same symptoms, and he's just as likely to prescribe rest, fluids and order up some lab tests as immediately peg an 11 yr old with diabetes. The plain fact of life is, most of our medical system is so overwhelmed and overburdened, that one who eschews it is no less nor more likely to have a successful or negative outcome.

Yeah, it's sad.......but don't think for a minute that this shit doesn't happen to "regular" folks as well. It just doen't make the news because people just love to point fingers at others and call them freaks and horrible, just because they chose to live their life a little bit different than you or I. What's a greater crime? These parents, who by all accounts deeply loved their child but chose a different path..........or the insurance system that will deny a life saving treatment to a child, forcing a family to leave their child in a hospital, slowly dying while they watch, knowing that their child could have survived........and all the while being saddled with a huge debt that they will never possibly pay off.

Yep, it's OK to trash a man for his beliefs, but lets ignore the fuckers who kill in the name of saving a buck.[/quote:249po21l]


PHD achievement? What sort of doctor are you talking about?

And having just went through the juvenile diabetes diagnosis dealio just this last month, it's pretty clear to me that a doctor CAN catch it......[/quote:249po21l]

Sorry, used a local joke at work (Piled Higher and Deeper) which some refer to certain people behind their backs. MD would be the proper term to use.

And no, I never said "can't" catch it. Also, perhaps some of you are so bent on your religious persecution, you may have not quite understood the article. The girl didn't die from diabetes, she died from a complication of diabetes. She was never diagnosed with diabetes, and in fact, one can be diabetic for years........and never be correctly diagnosed. Unfortunately, for a number of people, if the first real indication of diabetes is the onset of DKA.........you've literally got from a few hours, to at max a month to diagnose diabetes, and treat the DKA, and in fact, it is entirely possible that a non-diagnosed diabetic can go from asymptomatic to dead in 24 hours because of this.

Now, if you tell me somebody who's child had been diagnosed with diabetes, and instead of following a prescribed treatment, and monitoring for DKA, they simply chose to pray their kid would be just fine.................I'm right there with you......string 'em up.

The fact of the matter is, the author of this article deliberately painted a picture by the occlusion of, and intential manipulation of facts to demonize this family for their religious beliefs, when in fact.............the same thing could have happened to the child of any number of MD'ers.

BTW, you took your children in knowing that YOU are diabetic, that's what we call a great big indicator. And the fact is...your two minute test was for blood sugar level, which, when combined with an indicator like a parent with diabetes, will result in a preliminary diagnosis. I suspect he did a little more to make sure before writing a script for insulin, but he probably did go over with you the symptons of DKA (which you should already know). I would also hazard a guess this was with the family doc, who's probably had it in the back of mind, if not telling you outright.........that your kids were at risk.

[quote="xewbx":3aum9zwm]

Not saying that at all, not even close. I'm saying that with something like this........assuming access to an average county, city, or state hospital, or clinic.........realistically, the odds are not overwhelmingly against the exact same outcome. ...[/quote:3aum9zwm]

Ok, show me those numbers. I don't believe it. I did a study on the effects of placebos, and prayer was discussed in some of the other studies I researched. I also ran across data of the success rates against what used to be almost a lost cause...leukemia. Even with something as dangerous as leukemia, the success rates were exponentially better than no treatment at all and even the success rates of prayer. I can dig up those numbers, if you'd like. It will take awhile, since I did that stuff back in the late 90's.

I want to see your numbers. You have a lot of speculations in your post, and I ain't buying it.

Oh, I'm not supporting government regulation of mandatory visits. But, I am calling a horse a horse...and that is those parents are whacked to substitute asking nothing more than a myth to fix what could be taken care of by reality.

Also, you seem pretty down on the private health care system. Are you asking for socialized medicine?

I can't imagine going from truly asymptomatic to dead in 24 hours from DKA. Not diagnosed to dead, sure, if a case like this were to arise where the parents chose to ignore the fact that their daughter needed medical help badly.

My wife is a Type 1, been hospitalized with DKA twice. It's not something that you are walking around perfectly healthy one minute, and then unconscious the next.

[quote="jtomasik":3fdccis7][quote="xewbx":3fdccis7]

Not saying that at all, not even close. I'm saying that with something like this........assuming access to an average county, city, or state hospital, or clinic.........realistically, the odds are not overwhelmingly against the exact same outcome. ...[/quote:3fdccis7]

Ok, show me those numbers. I don't believe it. I did a study on the effects of placebos, and prayer was discussed in some of the other studies I researched. I also ran across data of the success rates against what used to be almost a lost cause...leukemia. Even with something as dangerous as leukemia, the success rates were exponentially better than no treatment at all and even the success rates of prayer. I can dig up those numbers, if you'd like. It will take awhile, since I did that stuff back in the late 90's.

I want to see your numbers. You have a lot of speculations in your post, and I ain't buying it.

Oh, I'm not supporting government regulation of mandatory visits. But, I am calling a horse a horse...and that is those parents are whacked to substitute asking nothing more than a myth to fix what could be taken care of by reality.

Also, you seem pretty down on the private health care system. Are you asking for socialized medicine? [/quote:3fdccis7]

You're misinterpreting what I'm telling you..........prayer and placebos have nothing to do with shit. Please, take a minute from your predisposed desire to persecute the religious to pay attention.

Let me say it another way..........you could fucking pray, sacrifice goats, worship trees, simply ignore it, take moltrin, or fucking use sunscreen...........or see a doctor. And the outcome will be just the same.......you friggin' die. Just because somebody is a doctor, does not mean they will make a correct diagnoses..........and in something that can go from "tired kid" to death in as little as a couple of days.....................does not warrant a criminal charge, when the outcome could have been exactly the same in the ER.

If your 10 your old boy came home from a football game and said his arm hurt.............are you going to call an ambulance? Probably not...........1% of children are born with a congenital heart defect that may be asymptomatic, or be mildly symptomatic (pain in arm or neck)......and then bam, your kid drops dead. Under the logic presented here based on this article, just as strong a case could be made to charge YOU with neglect, because you didn't know, or didn't associate the symptoms presented with something that is life threatening............and that's what it this really boils down to.

And no, I'm not thrilled with our medical system, and no, I have experienced socialized medicine first hand (surgery in a German ER), so no fan of that. I blame the filthy, bottom feeding insurance model that we have created for driving up costs while reducing services. I don't have an answer to what would work, I admit that.

[quote="APLMAN":29usy7jj]I can't imagine going from truly asymptomatic to dead in 24 hours from DKA. Not diagnosed to dead, sure, if a case like this were to arise where the parents chose to ignore the fact that their daughter needed medical help badly.

My wife is a Type 1, been hospitalized with DKA twice. It's not something that you are walking around perfectly healthy one minute, and then unconscious the next.[/quote:29usy7jj]

But it does happen. You are in a family that has been living with this for a while, and looking for these symptoms have become second nature to you. What you recognize immediately as life threatening, to somebody else may be something else entirely.

And when I stated asymptomatic to death.............I was referring to diabetes.........not the early symptons of DKA, which are often misinterpreted or overlooked. In other words.........you can be walking around with diabetes and never know it UNTIL you have a DKA onset.

I would hazard a bet that you've been watching your kids for ANY sign of diabetes or DKA since the day you, or your wife were diagnosed.

Pray to God but, row to the shore.

[quote="Dirty Britches":1wfdh57w]the girls aunt tried to get her to go go hospital days before it got this bad and they said no, we're praying. What do you not get about that?[/quote:1wfdh57w]

What do you not get about it? So what. You, in fact, were not there. Did the aunt come over and casually say, "you know, that might not just be the flu, maybe you should make an appointment". Or did she beg and yell and scream that the girl needed to go to the ER? And if the aunt thought the girl's life was in danger AT THAT MOMENT, why did she wait a couple of days to make the call?

Bottom line is........we have something that can be sudden, can mimic the symptoms of other benign illnesses, parents who do not wish to take their child to the doctor, family members who may have thought a docs visit was a good idea, but obviously did not think it was life threatnening enough to act immediately, and only later did it become obvious enough to them to call 911 themselves........which of course was too late.

And you think they should go to jail? That's a hell of a society right there. You folks and your desire for overwelming government authority amazes me. Pretty soon, the only "legal" way to raise a child will be to sign them over to the state at birth, and pick 'em up on their 18th birthday to take 'em to college.

[quote="xewbx":2ctq5a1g][quote="APLMAN":2ctq5a1g]I can't imagine going from truly asymptomatic to dead in 24 hours from DKA. Not diagnosed to dead, sure, if a case like this were to arise where the parents chose to ignore the fact that their daughter needed medical help badly.

My wife is a Type 1, been hospitalized with DKA twice. It's not something that you are walking around perfectly healthy one minute, and then unconscious the next.[/quote:2ctq5a1g]

But it does happen. You are in a family that has been living with this for a while, and looking for these symptoms have become second nature to you. What you recognize immediately as life threatening, to somebody else may be something else entirely.

And when I stated asymptomatic to death.............I was referring to diabetes.........not the early symptons of DKA, which are often misinterpreted or overlooked. In other words.........you can be walking around with diabetes and never know it UNTIL you have a DKA onset.

I would hazard a bet that you've been watching your kids for ANY sign of diabetes or DKA since the day you, or your wife were diagnosed.[/quote:2ctq5a1g]

You may not KNOW you have diabetes, but you would have symptoms long before you lapsed into DKA. Whether you would pick up on the symptoms or not doesn't mean they aren't there.

And you'd lose that bet. Type 1 diabetes is not hereditary, and even if it were there isn't much chance of my daughter's stepmother passing it on to her...

Fact is, the doc recognized the symptoms rather quickly, the blood sugar and ketone tests came back very quickly, and she was admitted that same day for stabilization. My daughter didn't have DKA, however, because he symptoms related to her high blood sugars got us to the doctor before that could happen.


Any time a child is sick for over a week, it should be treated as a medical emergency.

[quote="APLMAN":2j55inqc][quote="xewbx":2j55inqc][quote="APLMAN":2j55inqc]I can't imagine going from truly asymptomatic to dead in 24 hours from DKA. Not diagnosed to dead, sure, if a case like this were to arise where the parents chose to ignore the fact that their daughter needed medical help badly.

My wife is a Type 1, been hospitalized with DKA twice. It's not something that you are walking around perfectly healthy one minute, and then unconscious the next.[/quote:2j55inqc]

But it does happen. You are in a family that has been living with this for a while, and looking for these symptoms have become second nature to you. What you recognize immediately as life threatening, to somebody else may be something else entirely.

And when I stated asymptomatic to death.............I was referring to diabetes.........not the early symptons of DKA, which are often misinterpreted or overlooked. In other words.........you can be walking around with diabetes and never know it UNTIL you have a DKA onset.

I would hazard a bet that you've been watching your kids for ANY sign of diabetes or DKA since the day you, or your wife were diagnosed.[/quote:2j55inqc]

You may not KNOW you have diabetes, but you would have symptoms long before you lapsed into DKA. Whether you would pick up on the symptoms or not doesn't mean they aren't there.

And you'd lose that bet. Type 1 diabetes is not hereditary, and even if it were there isn't much chance of my daughter's stepmother passing it on to her...

Fact is, the doc recognized the symptoms rather quickly, the blood sugar and ketone tests came back very quickly, and she was admitted that same day for stabilization. My daughter didn't have DKA, however, because he symptoms related to her high blood sugars got us to the doctor before that could happen.


Any time a child is sick for over a week, it should be treated as a medical emergency.[/quote:2j55inqc]

Not entirely accurate.

The genetic link of type 1 and type 2 diabetes is not clear............it's never been established one way or the other definitively. The standard wisdom dictates that type 2 seems to have more of a genetic disposition than type 1. In both cases, a diabetic inherits a predisposition to the disease which is likely triggered by something in the environment. Most type 1 diabetics have inherited risk factors from both parents. The environmental trigger could be anything from diet, to cold weather. The inherited predisposition does not, in and of itself, always lead to diabetes (identical twins may not both develope it). The rule is thus: Inherited predisposition + environmental trigger = diabetes.

Any family doctor treating a family where both parents are diabetic is going to assume the children are predisposed to diabetes, and that the environmental trigger likely exists and treat accordingly.

And you are also confusing indicators with symptoms. You can live many years with diabetes, and never have symptoms. You can also have all of the indicators, but never develope diabetes. You could also have mild symptoms, or have symptoms that are attributed to something else.

Which is all irrelevant to the discussion.

Sure, I believe you should take your kid to the doc if they are sick for a week.........but lots of people don't believe that, and in fact, I've been sick myself for a week and didn't go to the doctor. And I doubt you would find a majority of medical professionals that would declare 1 week of intermittent nausea, vomiting, lack of appetite, and tiredness as a "medical emergency". They'd would probably most all agree that they need to see a doctor as soon as possible, but "medical emergency"? No.

[quote="xewbx":1naggkb7] Please, take a minute from your predisposed desire to persecute the religious to pay attention.

Let me say it another way..........you could fucking pray, sacrifice goats, worship trees, simply ignore it, take moltrin, or fucking use sunscreen...........or see a doctor. And the outcome will be just the same.......you friggin' die. Just because somebody is a doctor, does not mean they will make a correct diagnoses...[/quote:1naggkb7]


And all I'm saying is that in your post, you're equating the frequency of successfully combating diabetes the same between visitin a doctor and prayer. I say bullshit. Show me those numbers.

I work in Weston WI. This is big news around here. Crazy nut jobs everywhere in the world I guess.

[quote="jtomasik":2weshzkz][quote="xewbx":2weshzkz] Please, take a minute from your predisposed desire to persecute the religious to pay attention.

Let me say it another way..........you could fucking pray, sacrifice goats, worship trees, simply ignore it, take moltrin, or fucking use sunscreen...........or see a doctor. And the outcome will be just the same.......you friggin' die. Just because somebody is a doctor, does not mean they will make a correct diagnoses...[/quote:2weshzkz]


And all I'm saying is that in your post, you're equating the frequency of successfully combating diabetes the same between visitin a doctor and prayer. I say bullshit. Show me those numbers.[/quote:2weshzkz]

I said that sometimes, regardless of whether or not you see a doctor........the outcome is still going to be the same. At no point and no where did I say or even imply in any way shape or form that prayer and visiting a doctor had equal success rates in treating diabetes.......in fact, my fine friend, I said the EXACT OPPOSITE:

[quote:2weshzkz]
Now, if you tell me somebody who's child had been diagnosed with diabetes, and instead of following a prescribed treatment, and monitoring for DKA, they simply chose to pray their kid would be just fine.................I'm right there with you......string 'em up.
[/quote:2weshzkz]

Unless you're referring to this:

[quote:2weshzkz]
The plain fact of life is, most of our medical system is so overwhelmed and overburdened, that one who eschews it is no less nor more likely to have a successful or negative outcome.
[/quote:2weshzkz]

Which is a general statement about the current state of our medical system overall and in no way was intended to imply anything at all about "prayer" nor in fact was it specifically addressing "diabetes", but in fact was meant to imply in general that simply going to the doctor because you feel sick.........or ignoring it and "toughing it out" will likely end the same way, either you will get better on your own........or you'll suffer the full effect of said illness, be it death or otherwise. Most people, most of the time, are not proactive enough, nor knowledgeable enough, to catch a truly severe illness and recognize it as such early enough to make a major difference in the final outcome. Sure, the course of treatment may be shorter, recovery time faster, but the final outcome will be relatively unchanged. Our medical system does not stress preventive medicine. We are not encouraged to get regular exams. In fact, in some cases, it is indirectly discouraged. We as a society are also extremely dependent on emergency rooms..........we wait until whatever is making us sick is so bad, that we end up getting treated at the ER, instead of being treated as an outpatient early on.

Some folks are proactive, and take responsibility for their own health. They recognize that if something doesn't go away after a week.......maybe they need to get a professional opinion. They get regular exams. When they hit 40, they ask for a prostate exam and a scope for a baseline, or they start looking for irregularities on their breasts. They take their female child in for an exam when she comes of "that age". These are things responsible people do. Not every one is responsible, some because they're........for lack of a better word...........dumb as a rock. Other's can't bear the financial burden. Still some have a moral or a religious reason. Putting somebody in jail because some folks feel they are "irresponsible".........well, at the end of the day, if we use that to judge our fellow humans...........there's going to be a whole lot of mufuckas in jail.

Aside from that............unless you'd care to point out where I've ever made a post saying prayer is just as effective in treating diabetes as seeing a doctor.............I'd like to see it.

It's a silly generality to make, too....

The only place it even remotely comes into play would be for something like the common cold.

[img:2otrv9ol]http://www.arouse.net/jesus/Surgeon.jpg[/img:2otrv9ol]

God saves.


cookoo...cookoo.


God can help beyond the realm of reality. But this was reality...nuff said.