The 125 class?

newmann
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Edited Date/Time 1/19/2012 2:55pm
We've already come to the conclusion that the 250 class will continue to be a clusterphuck of overly expensive bikes with career riders on them. Soon it will be career riders over the age of 18. The premier class if you want to call it that, I think that would be fair. So where does this leave those "up and coming" pro riders these days? The kids turning 16? The would be teams that can't afford to compete with Mitch Payton's fleet of $200,000.00 apiece unobtanium bikes? The 250 2 strokes still don't seem to be much of a concern for that class from the powers that be, so the price of competing doesn't appear to be coming down any time soon. To me, it only leaves one obvious solution. Bring back the 125 class. What in the world would prevent that from being a reality? Cheap bikes, even modded they are still reasonable. A few limitations such as no works suspension or one off works parts could keep everything within reach of most racers . Plus , the 125 class has been a major component of the U.S. Motocross scene since it took off here in the states. Just doesn't make any sense to not have it. Would be nice to be back to the days of 125, 250 and open classes again.
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Cygnus
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10/14/2009 11:08am
I think we will be seeing a lot of the fast 16-17 year olds over in the GP's.
Tiki
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10/14/2009 11:09am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:44am
Im all for it.
newmann
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10/14/2009 11:11am
But how many could actually afford that? Half a dozen maybe?
2T42
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10/14/2009 11:13am
I agree 100%. Since when did a perfect stepping stone and well balanced machine get thrown by the wayside? OH yeah, I forgot... the big 4 via AMA run the show now.

WE WANT THE 125 BACK!!!

I could fix the nationals in one step. Put EVERYONE on 125's and we will see who can ride. Talk about excitement! Wringing the bikes necks till they steam, good passing, passion would be back and it would shine through on TV.

The Shop

rocrac
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10/14/2009 11:19am
A class 16-20 year olds are quiting racing altogether everywhere. High cost of competitive equipment is the main culprit IMHO.
Tiki
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10/14/2009 12:09pm
rocrac wrote:
A class 16-20 year olds are quiting racing altogether everywhere. High cost of competitive equipment is the main culprit IMHO.
I disagree. If you want to race, you can. Racing is expensive bottom line. If you want to race a stocker, you can. You guys make it sound as if every 250F blows up when you look at it. They dont. In fact due to the large amount of them sold, I would say the ratio to them imploding is pretty rare. It is the same disinformation that used to be said about Kawasaki's KX's in the 80's they all seize. They didnt and dont.

Racing is expensive. I want to see the 125 class due to its nature. They sound neat, smell great and make for some great racing. Just like the 250F class, which I feel should stay as well.

I can appreciate the rivalry between the two, how about we as a community come back to earth and keep things realistic.
newmann
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10/14/2009 12:16pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:44am
The 125, what a beautiful thing. Stewart schooling a field of 250F's with the exception of that epic Hangtown battle with Roncada! Listen to that baby sing.





TeamGreen
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10/14/2009 12:24pm
Here's how you start a 125 class to "bridge" the gap between the 85s and 250Fs...

Homologation rule- a REAL rule based on min. qty of say...500 units avail. U.S.

"Catalog Parts" another "REAL" rule w/ minimum qty rqmts (Same as Homologation rule). Parts have to be avail. to EVERYONE! Like, say, an FMF pipe...a Wiseco Piston...etc. Good-bye spclty or one-off parts.

Production Tires

Prod. Suspension w/ Max $ and Modidfication rules (Sim. to the SX/MX Lites class rule;but, allow for less mod's...dollarwise, that is. NO MORE "A-Kits", etc.)

A REAL Claiming Rule with some TEETH! Say $8500-$9500 depending on Modifications allowed.

That's how you get a good 125-150 class that means something and keeps it cheap like you're wanting it to be.

Some of this isn't unlike the 125 Mod class at the AM-Nat's...except...for real limits and real ENFORCEMENT!
MX-LIFE.
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10/14/2009 12:32pm Edited Date/Time 10/14/2009 12:33pm
Newman, is JS7 riding a 125 in this race? Against 250f 's?
MX-LIFE.
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10/14/2009 12:39pm
Does anyone have that 125 outdoor nat race,where JS7 was racing Reed and passed him and waited on him and passed him back? Can some one post it or tell me where i can find it. 125 class was close.
rocrac
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10/14/2009 12:40pm
rocrac wrote:
A class 16-20 year olds are quiting racing altogether everywhere. High cost of competitive equipment is the main culprit IMHO.
Tiki wrote:
I disagree. If you want to race, you can. Racing is expensive bottom line. If you want to race a stocker, you can. You guys make...
I disagree. If you want to race, you can. Racing is expensive bottom line. If you want to race a stocker, you can. You guys make it sound as if every 250F blows up when you look at it. They dont. In fact due to the large amount of them sold, I would say the ratio to them imploding is pretty rare. It is the same disinformation that used to be said about Kawasaki's KX's in the 80's they all seize. They didnt and dont.

Racing is expensive. I want to see the 125 class due to its nature. They sound neat, smell great and make for some great racing. Just like the 250F class, which I feel should stay as well.

I can appreciate the rivalry between the two, how about we as a community come back to earth and keep things realistic.
Tiki,

with all due respect, you are a vet 450 rider. When you have some experience trying to keep a competitive 250f under a fast A/Pro rider get back to me.
Tiki
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10/14/2009 12:56pm
rocrac wrote:
A class 16-20 year olds are quiting racing altogether everywhere. High cost of competitive equipment is the main culprit IMHO.
Tiki wrote:
I disagree. If you want to race, you can. Racing is expensive bottom line. If you want to race a stocker, you can. You guys make...
I disagree. If you want to race, you can. Racing is expensive bottom line. If you want to race a stocker, you can. You guys make it sound as if every 250F blows up when you look at it. They dont. In fact due to the large amount of them sold, I would say the ratio to them imploding is pretty rare. It is the same disinformation that used to be said about Kawasaki's KX's in the 80's they all seize. They didnt and dont.

Racing is expensive. I want to see the 125 class due to its nature. They sound neat, smell great and make for some great racing. Just like the 250F class, which I feel should stay as well.

I can appreciate the rivalry between the two, how about we as a community come back to earth and keep things realistic.
rocrac wrote:
Tiki, with all due respect, you are a vet 450 rider. When you have some experience trying to keep a competitive 250f under a fast A/Pro...
Tiki,

with all due respect, you are a vet 450 rider. When you have some experience trying to keep a competitive 250f under a fast A/Pro rider get back to me.
Very true, but I am sure the problems exist when you put a professional bike flogger on any bike. 125A rider will need new top end every race, potential clutch every other race. How is that different then a 250F? When 125's can pull lap times near on top of the 250f's based on earlier comparisons when they were both racing, is it the bike or the rider?

Granted a 250F you want every advantage and a crank through the bottom is costly. I never raced the 250F's after my time as you said. I didn't care for them on the brief stint I rode one. Lot of noise and no movement. I do know my friends that race at that level don't have all the problems that is expressed here on Vital. Though they are not racing for professional contracts.

If we are talking about kids 16-20 years old, home schooled and racing for hopes of professional riding, Yes I would say that is a savings to race a 125. But that is what 1% of the racing community? And cranks go on pingers just the same.

Just comparing, they seem to be a wash, more so at that level. But I agree, I have no experience with it.
10/14/2009 1:11pm
"FIM announces 125cc 2 Stroke European Championship
By JohnNicholas • on March 31, 2009

According to a news release by Youthstream on Sunday March 29th in FAENZA Italy, 2009 will see a 125cc two stroke class added. The 125cc Two stroke races will be added to 6 or 7 of the World Championship rounds.

This is being done in an effort to keep costs down for young riders and their families.

We are pleased to see this new addition by the FIM.

To read more visit this web site http://www.motocrossmx1.com/"

Looks like FIM sees the value in it. I think its a great idea.
mxcrf34
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10/14/2009 1:15pm
There are pros and cons to having a 125 class. yes, it would be a great stepping stone for the amateurs and it would be much cheaper. However, holding a limit on how much they can spend and the class in general seems like they would be moving the amateur day to the same day as the professional national. It would be like a 2003 Loretta's Pro Sport race at a Pro National. Just make the 250 2 stroke legal. that would simplify things alot easier.
newmann
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10/14/2009 1:20pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:44am
MX-LIFE. wrote:
Newman, is JS7 riding a 125 in this race? Against 250f 's?
Yep. He would usually put 30 seconds on the field on that full factory SR125. Last race of the year he switched to the 250F and put a minute plus on everyone and set the cruise control if my mind recalls correctly. He was the only guy to toast everyone on the tiddler and it was not a typical Pro-Circuit ride. Full factory ride , trickery at its finest. I think this is your Unadilla race you are looking for. Don't have time to watch it though.





Chili
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10/14/2009 1:27pm
Anybody that can't figure out why a kid wouldn't want to race a 125 against 250F's and figures they are equal should watch the second moto start from that Hangtown race. Stewart gets a good jump and then gets eaten alive on the way to the first turn.
twizzler
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10/14/2009 1:29pm
rocrac wrote:
A class 16-20 year olds are quiting racing altogether everywhere. High cost of competitive equipment is the main culprit IMHO.
Tiki wrote:
I disagree. If you want to race, you can. Racing is expensive bottom line. If you want to race a stocker, you can. You guys make...
I disagree. If you want to race, you can. Racing is expensive bottom line. If you want to race a stocker, you can. You guys make it sound as if every 250F blows up when you look at it. They dont. In fact due to the large amount of them sold, I would say the ratio to them imploding is pretty rare. It is the same disinformation that used to be said about Kawasaki's KX's in the 80's they all seize. They didnt and dont.

Racing is expensive. I want to see the 125 class due to its nature. They sound neat, smell great and make for some great racing. Just like the 250F class, which I feel should stay as well.

I can appreciate the rivalry between the two, how about we as a community come back to earth and keep things realistic.
It is a reality of expensive bikes all around. A new 10' 125 is $6k. Of course a person can go buy a used 125 or 250 two stroke for less. But racers want the newest gidget. It's bred into our mentality. Although, it doesn't have to be that way. But it is. Kids are still making 8 bucks and hour today, I made that same amount 20 years ago. A 125 then was $3k it's now $6K!!! That's the underlying story.
MX7MX
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10/14/2009 1:32pm
newmann wrote:
The 125, what a beautiful thing. Stewart schooling a field of 250F's with the exception of that epic Hangtown battle with Roncada! Listen to that baby...
The 125, what a beautiful thing. Stewart schooling a field of 250F's with the exception of that epic Hangtown battle with Roncada! Listen to that baby sing.





THAT VIDEO OF JAMES STEWART AT HANGTOWN 2004 IS THE MAIN REASON WHY PEOPLE NEED TO SHUT THE FUCK UP about the 250F vs 250T. If James can do it, then everyone else needs to man up and do it too. Don't blame the damn bikes!
MX7MX
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10/14/2009 1:37pm
Chili wrote:
Anybody that can't figure out why a kid wouldn't want to race a 125 against 250F's and figures they are equal should watch the second moto...
Anybody that can't figure out why a kid wouldn't want to race a 125 against 250F's and figures they are equal should watch the second moto start from that Hangtown race. Stewart gets a good jump and then gets eaten alive on the way to the first turn.
and I suppose that you think that even though stewie wins on a 125 that it would be MORE Fair with a 250T vs a 250F? LOL!
newmann
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10/14/2009 1:39pm
mxcrf34 wrote:
There are pros and cons to having a 125 class. yes, it would be a great stepping stone for the amateurs and it would be much...
There are pros and cons to having a 125 class. yes, it would be a great stepping stone for the amateurs and it would be much cheaper. However, holding a limit on how much they can spend and the class in general seems like they would be moving the amateur day to the same day as the professional national. It would be like a 2003 Loretta's Pro Sport race at a Pro National. Just make the 250 2 stroke legal. that would simplify things alot easier.
This isn't about the 250 class though. We've already decided the 250 class / 250 4 stroke vs. 250 2 stroke is a clusterphuck of epic proportions and no one seems too overly concerned to make any changes to it. So for the moment, to hell with all things 250. And don't anyone bring any 450 bullshit to the table here either. 125's only.
MX7MX
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10/14/2009 1:39pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:44am
ALl of you guys, this post included, is nothing more than your attempt to get a damn 2 stroke back. You wanted it in the amteur ranks where 99% of us ride. YOU GOT IT> Thats not good enough because the 250F's are still eatin there oil burners up. So now you want it in the pro's? Even if its in the pros and doesnt win, NONE of you people are gonna be happy till its all 2 strokes. Viable and competitive option my ass. YOU HAVE THAT NOW IN THE AMATEUR RANKS WHERE YOU ALL RIDE AND RACE. ISNT THAT ENOUGH????
Cygnus
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10/14/2009 1:40pm
The biggest problem is these kids do not want to ride 125's. The 250's are easier to ride. Kids are lazy.
twizzler
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10/14/2009 1:43pm
MX has gained a ton of Vet riders. And lost a ton of young riders. The Vet riders are more likely able to afford it.

Back in the early 90's myself and 6 of my close friends all paid for our bikes and racing out of our pockets. We bought new bikes every year and raced. Today I don't see any young kids and their friends at the tracks by themselves. If they are kids they have parents or OEM's paying for their bikes and racing. If it is a kid by himself, he usually has an older roached out model bike that he took a loan out for and now the bike is worth less than what he owes on his loan. You see him once at a race then mostly not again.
Teddy240
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10/14/2009 1:46pm Edited Date/Time 10/14/2009 1:48pm
MX-LIFE. wrote:
Does anyone have that 125 outdoor nat race,where JS7 was racing Reed and passed him and waited on him and passed him back? Can some one...
Does anyone have that 125 outdoor nat race,where JS7 was racing Reed and passed him and waited on him and passed him back? Can some one post it or tell me where i can find it. 125 class was close.
rocrac
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10/14/2009 1:48pm
rocrac wrote:
A class 16-20 year olds are quiting racing altogether everywhere. High cost of competitive equipment is the main culprit IMHO.
Tiki wrote:
I disagree. If you want to race, you can. Racing is expensive bottom line. If you want to race a stocker, you can. You guys make...
I disagree. If you want to race, you can. Racing is expensive bottom line. If you want to race a stocker, you can. You guys make it sound as if every 250F blows up when you look at it. They dont. In fact due to the large amount of them sold, I would say the ratio to them imploding is pretty rare. It is the same disinformation that used to be said about Kawasaki's KX's in the 80's they all seize. They didnt and dont.

Racing is expensive. I want to see the 125 class due to its nature. They sound neat, smell great and make for some great racing. Just like the 250F class, which I feel should stay as well.

I can appreciate the rivalry between the two, how about we as a community come back to earth and keep things realistic.
twizzler wrote:
It is a reality of expensive bikes all around. A new 10' 125 is $6k. Of course a person can go buy a used 125 or...
It is a reality of expensive bikes all around. A new 10' 125 is $6k. Of course a person can go buy a used 125 or 250 two stroke for less. But racers want the newest gidget. It's bred into our mentality. Although, it doesn't have to be that way. But it is. Kids are still making 8 bucks and hour today, I made that same amount 20 years ago. A 125 then was $3k it's now $6K!!! That's the underlying story.
Good point.
newmann
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10/14/2009 2:35pm
M7MX claims to have a degree? Yet he can't read the title of this thread. LOL. Take your 250 bullshit elsewhere. Just 125's here ya' kook. Smile
dr516
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10/14/2009 2:38pm
IMO the rule to ban leaded fuel is what really put and end to the competiveness of the 2 stroke in pro moto
Bill163
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10/14/2009 2:53pm
Tiki wrote:
I disagree. If you want to race, you can. Racing is expensive bottom line. If you want to race a stocker, you can. You guys make...
I disagree. If you want to race, you can. Racing is expensive bottom line. If you want to race a stocker, you can. You guys make it sound as if every 250F blows up when you look at it. They dont. In fact due to the large amount of them sold, I would say the ratio to them imploding is pretty rare. It is the same disinformation that used to be said about Kawasaki's KX's in the 80's they all seize. They didnt and dont.

Racing is expensive. I want to see the 125 class due to its nature. They sound neat, smell great and make for some great racing. Just like the 250F class, which I feel should stay as well.

I can appreciate the rivalry between the two, how about we as a community come back to earth and keep things realistic.
rocrac wrote:
Tiki, with all due respect, you are a vet 450 rider. When you have some experience trying to keep a competitive 250f under a fast A/Pro...
Tiki,

with all due respect, you are a vet 450 rider. When you have some experience trying to keep a competitive 250f under a fast A/Pro rider get back to me.
Tiki wrote:
Very true, but I am sure the problems exist when you put a professional bike flogger on any bike. 125A rider will need new top end...
Very true, but I am sure the problems exist when you put a professional bike flogger on any bike. 125A rider will need new top end every race, potential clutch every other race. How is that different then a 250F? When 125's can pull lap times near on top of the 250f's based on earlier comparisons when they were both racing, is it the bike or the rider?

Granted a 250F you want every advantage and a crank through the bottom is costly. I never raced the 250F's after my time as you said. I didn't care for them on the brief stint I rode one. Lot of noise and no movement. I do know my friends that race at that level don't have all the problems that is expressed here on Vital. Though they are not racing for professional contracts.

If we are talking about kids 16-20 years old, home schooled and racing for hopes of professional riding, Yes I would say that is a savings to race a 125. But that is what 1% of the racing community? And cranks go on pingers just the same.

Just comparing, they seem to be a wash, more so at that level. But I agree, I have no experience with it.
Tiki,
as a small bike shop owner I can tell you it's way cheaper to race and maintain,modify a 2 stroke 125 than a 250f under any reason the cost is almost 3 to 1 on engine rebuilds.

You can't compare 250f's today to 125's 250f's are way faster than the early day's remember the AMA killed the 125 with the gas rule in 04 it was only the freak of nature talent of Bubba that he was able to win that year.

Also don't tell me that the speed that 4 strokes generate on tracks now don't play into serious injuries today just look at the video of Bubba and Langston on 125's barely able to clear tables and step-up's and that's when 125's were at their peak.What a eye opener.Now every novice is over jumping the same stuff on a regular basis on 250 and 450f's.
Tiki
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10/14/2009 3:20pm
Bill163 wrote:
Tiki, as a small bike shop owner I can tell you it's way cheaper to race and maintain,modify a 2 stroke 125 than a 250f under...
Tiki,
as a small bike shop owner I can tell you it's way cheaper to race and maintain,modify a 2 stroke 125 than a 250f under any reason the cost is almost 3 to 1 on engine rebuilds.

You can't compare 250f's today to 125's 250f's are way faster than the early day's remember the AMA killed the 125 with the gas rule in 04 it was only the freak of nature talent of Bubba that he was able to win that year.

Also don't tell me that the speed that 4 strokes generate on tracks now don't play into serious injuries today just look at the video of Bubba and Langston on 125's barely able to clear tables and step-up's and that's when 125's were at their peak.What a eye opener.Now every novice is over jumping the same stuff on a regular basis on 250 and 450f's.
Bill you make some valid points. 250f's are faster, I believe they do contribute to injuries. Some of the younger kids are blazing tracks way faster then they were.

Costs however, and the facts that get tossed around here are well: Full of Shit.
Since A racers were brought up, lets use them. They require the most maintenance and with respect to reality, they are being maintained as the manual states.

Aside from the retail cost of the bike, first is any A racer paying retail - NO
Maintenance. As stated above 125's require just as much if not more in the way of parts and frequency.

The bike, if racing AMA should be near stock. If racing a Modified class, add exhaust and any sneaky things you want to do to the engine. That is open for each bike and rider. How much they want to spend on the suspension they can get away with.

Granted valve train is more moving parts, the added expense. But valves are not replaced each moto such as a top end should be on a 125. Pistons are more for the thumper, but you can get buy a 1 race.

It was brought up I was a Vet - so I will go into history of 1995 when I was racing a 125's for fun. An A racer (lets use my buddy Sam, he was contesting to get a job racing bikes, he raced and qualified for the SX Main and Nationals - a privateer) he would replace top end every moto. Not day. Moto. Clutch every race. Drive train two races. Have you heard the register ringing yet? Cranks - two races max. Each crank was balanced, every cylinder ported, every head milled.

That is a lot of spinning wrenches. Again it all comes out in the wash. Both are expensive to campaign at the A level.

I do agree they are dangerously fast for someone that may not have the talent. Not my decision. There is a speed controller on the handlebar. It needs to be used.

Costs however, I call bullshit. Both are very expensive and anyone saying racing is affordable is lying to themselves and others.
KAWboy14
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10/14/2009 3:34pm
newmann wrote:
The 125, what a beautiful thing. Stewart schooling a field of 250F's with the exception of that epic Hangtown battle with Roncada! Listen to that baby...
The 125, what a beautiful thing. Stewart schooling a field of 250F's with the exception of that epic Hangtown battle with Roncada! Listen to that baby sing.





MX7MX wrote:
THAT VIDEO OF JAMES STEWART AT HANGTOWN 2004 IS THE MAIN REASON WHY PEOPLE NEED TO SHUT THE FUCK UP about the 250F vs 250T. If...
THAT VIDEO OF JAMES STEWART AT HANGTOWN 2004 IS THE MAIN REASON WHY PEOPLE NEED TO SHUT THE FUCK UP about the 250F vs 250T. If James can do it, then everyone else needs to man up and do it too. Don't blame the damn bikes!
250F's have come a long way since back then!

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