How are they THAT different?

Darryl_Crawford
Edited Date/Time 1/26/2012 2:53am
Factory bikes!

Everyone has thier favorite color (mine is red). I don't understand how they can be so different. You can make the geometry what ever you want. Suspension can be made to what ever you want. Weight can be biased how ever you want.

you have:

balast
links
triple clamps
springs
valves
shims
bars
brakes
cams
jetting (ecu tuning)


I can understand a stock showroom bike but when you have factory support and the stock bike sucks you just change it! Right?


I'm not a fast motocross guy but I do race and I am an engineer and avid motocross fan and to me hearing over and over, "this bike sucks", "that bike is so good". Isn't it just a team struggling with set up? In my mind if the bike won't turn, make it turn. If a blue (bass ackwards) bike is unstable and a red one is so good (according to Larry Brooks, lol) why don't the yamaha guys take the measurments from a honda and match them? Put a scale under each wheel and match the weight bias and you should have a bike that handles pretty near the same just a different color. Road racers do it all the time but they are more reliant on power.

In my mind there should not be much difference at the end of the day. There is one set up that works in the perfect world, the other (small) adjustments should only be to suit rider style and track conditions.

Thoughts?
|
williamsmotowerx 9/15/2011 12:07am
9/15/2011 12:07am
The biggest problem is the riders that come in, throw their helmet and say this thing sucks.

The team asks rider what they want bike to do. Rider says, its a pile just fix it.

How you supposed to accommodate someone like that?
SLAPAHO
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SLAPAHO 9/15/2011 12:09am
9/15/2011 12:09am
umm, yeah, thats makes perfect sense if you made 39 clones of the same guy.
Darryl_Crawford 9/15/2011 12:42am
9/15/2011 12:42am
williamsmotowerx wrote:
The biggest problem is the riders that come in, throw their helmet and say this thing sucks. The team asks rider what they want bike to...
The biggest problem is the riders that come in, throw their helmet and say this thing sucks.

The team asks rider what they want bike to do. Rider says, its a pile just fix it.

How you supposed to accommodate someone like that?
I agree, you can't do anything with that. *cough*Pourcel*cough*
ODB
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ODB 9/15/2011 4:42am
9/15/2011 4:42am
being an engineer you should know about torsional strength.....suzuki ,has long been said to have the best handling bikes ,mostly said from the frames ...kawi has obviously found the answer with the frame as per RV and others wins and comments on the 2012...........all bikes are not equal and if it was that easy ,patents would not be needed

The Shop

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TriRacer27 9/15/2011 8:12am
9/15/2011 8:12am
Like ODB was sayin, it's MUCH more than just wait bias and geometry. To give you an example:

A few years ago when Mike Larocco was still racing on the honda, his mechanic would etch out little grooves into his top triple clamp. I'm talking grooves that were only slightly deeper than a deep scratch, and only about 5 vertical ones on each side. His mechanic claimed that Mike could immediately tell the difference between those and the normal FC clamps.

Just think of the factors involved with how a bike will bounce off of a bump:

- tire pressure
- tire compound
- wheel flex
- hub flex
- fork stiffness which depends on upper and lower tube dimensions and materials, stiction, weight, and not to mention valving and spring rates
- front wheel unsprung weight from wheel, tire, tube, brake, hub, brake caliper, fork guards, etc
- triple clamp stiffness
- triple clamp geometry
- mechanical grip between the clamps and the forks
- frame stiffness and geometry which depends on material used, production properties such as welding and heat treating, frame wall thickness, and weight
- engine weight and weight distribution
- auxillary unit weight and weight distribution such as radiators, carb, pipe and muffler, etc.
- engine stiffness and the amount of structural rigidity added by the engine depending on the type and amount of engine mounts
- swingarm length
- swingarm stiffness both vertical and lateral
- swingarm pivot location
- rear unsprung weight from wheel, tire, hub, brake, brake caliper, brake fluid, swingarm, etc.
- stiffness of the swingarm pivot
- linkage rates
- linkage material properties and weight
- shock dampening and rebound rates


There are more but that's the vast majority that a factory has to work with when developing a new bike. Factor in the HUGE variable of the riders and you can see that there is absolutely no way to develop the perfect bike much less to get the same results just from copying the geometry and weight distribution.

I guarantee you many Chinese manufacturers have tried copying the geometry and design of the major jap bikes, but would you buy one?
SwapperMX
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SwapperMX 9/15/2011 8:19am
9/15/2011 8:19am Edited Date/Time 9/15/2011 8:20am
TriRacer27 wrote:
Like ODB was sayin, it's MUCH more than just wait bias and geometry. To give you an example: A few years ago when Mike Larocco was...
Like ODB was sayin, it's MUCH more than just wait bias and geometry. To give you an example:

A few years ago when Mike Larocco was still racing on the honda, his mechanic would etch out little grooves into his top triple clamp. I'm talking grooves that were only slightly deeper than a deep scratch, and only about 5 vertical ones on each side. His mechanic claimed that Mike could immediately tell the difference between those and the normal FC clamps.

Just think of the factors involved with how a bike will bounce off of a bump:

- tire pressure
- tire compound
- wheel flex
- hub flex
- fork stiffness which depends on upper and lower tube dimensions and materials, stiction, weight, and not to mention valving and spring rates
- front wheel unsprung weight from wheel, tire, tube, brake, hub, brake caliper, fork guards, etc
- triple clamp stiffness
- triple clamp geometry
- mechanical grip between the clamps and the forks
- frame stiffness and geometry which depends on material used, production properties such as welding and heat treating, frame wall thickness, and weight
- engine weight and weight distribution
- auxillary unit weight and weight distribution such as radiators, carb, pipe and muffler, etc.
- engine stiffness and the amount of structural rigidity added by the engine depending on the type and amount of engine mounts
- swingarm length
- swingarm stiffness both vertical and lateral
- swingarm pivot location
- rear unsprung weight from wheel, tire, hub, brake, brake caliper, brake fluid, swingarm, etc.
- stiffness of the swingarm pivot
- linkage rates
- linkage material properties and weight
- shock dampening and rebound rates


There are more but that's the vast majority that a factory has to work with when developing a new bike. Factor in the HUGE variable of the riders and you can see that there is absolutely no way to develop the perfect bike much less to get the same results just from copying the geometry and weight distribution.

I guarantee you many Chinese manufacturers have tried copying the geometry and design of the major jap bikes, but would you buy one?
And I thought it was 95% rider ?? ?? ?? ??
SteveS
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SteveS 9/15/2011 8:19am
9/15/2011 8:19am
It's all voodoo.
Suns_PSD
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Suns_PSD 9/15/2011 8:21am
9/15/2011 8:21am
As others have correctly pointed out, there is so MUCH more than the easily changed parameters that you mentioned much of which can not be changed w/o desinging a new frame for instance, or new head stays, or altering bolt torque or thickness, power characteristics effect different chassis' in different ways.

At our lowly level, we don't notice much, but as the level of the rider increases, the small things begin to make all of the difference in the world.

Add in, how much talent, skill, time, and resources does a team have to make complicated changes? I chase my tail all of the time just turning knobs. If I began to swap frames I wouldn't know where to even begin.

Lastly, what can they even legally change? They can't just go make an RMZ frame and bolt a KTM engine in it. That's not even legal.
motogrady
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motogrady 9/15/2011 8:30am
9/15/2011 8:30am
Suns_PSD wrote:
As others have correctly pointed out, there is so MUCH more than the easily changed parameters that you mentioned much of which can not be changed...
As others have correctly pointed out, there is so MUCH more than the easily changed parameters that you mentioned much of which can not be changed w/o desinging a new frame for instance, or new head stays, or altering bolt torque or thickness, power characteristics effect different chassis' in different ways.

At our lowly level, we don't notice much, but as the level of the rider increases, the small things begin to make all of the difference in the world.

Add in, how much talent, skill, time, and resources does a team have to make complicated changes? I chase my tail all of the time just turning knobs. If I began to swap frames I wouldn't know where to even begin.

Lastly, what can they even legally change? They can't just go make an RMZ frame and bolt a KTM engine in it. That's not even legal.
I think you must use the same frame and swingarm that passed tech that day.

Everything else is up for grabs, as long as they meet the homo rule, that is 200 (or 400?) have been made available to the public.
downandup
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downandup 9/15/2011 8:30am
9/15/2011 8:30am
TriRacer27 wrote:
Like ODB was sayin, it's MUCH more than just wait bias and geometry. To give you an example: A few years ago when Mike Larocco was...
Like ODB was sayin, it's MUCH more than just wait bias and geometry. To give you an example:

A few years ago when Mike Larocco was still racing on the honda, his mechanic would etch out little grooves into his top triple clamp. I'm talking grooves that were only slightly deeper than a deep scratch, and only about 5 vertical ones on each side. His mechanic claimed that Mike could immediately tell the difference between those and the normal FC clamps.

Just think of the factors involved with how a bike will bounce off of a bump:

- tire pressure
- tire compound
- wheel flex
- hub flex
- fork stiffness which depends on upper and lower tube dimensions and materials, stiction, weight, and not to mention valving and spring rates
- front wheel unsprung weight from wheel, tire, tube, brake, hub, brake caliper, fork guards, etc
- triple clamp stiffness
- triple clamp geometry
- mechanical grip between the clamps and the forks
- frame stiffness and geometry which depends on material used, production properties such as welding and heat treating, frame wall thickness, and weight
- engine weight and weight distribution
- auxillary unit weight and weight distribution such as radiators, carb, pipe and muffler, etc.
- engine stiffness and the amount of structural rigidity added by the engine depending on the type and amount of engine mounts
- swingarm length
- swingarm stiffness both vertical and lateral
- swingarm pivot location
- rear unsprung weight from wheel, tire, hub, brake, brake caliper, brake fluid, swingarm, etc.
- stiffness of the swingarm pivot
- linkage rates
- linkage material properties and weight
- shock dampening and rebound rates


There are more but that's the vast majority that a factory has to work with when developing a new bike. Factor in the HUGE variable of the riders and you can see that there is absolutely no way to develop the perfect bike much less to get the same results just from copying the geometry and weight distribution.

I guarantee you many Chinese manufacturers have tried copying the geometry and design of the major jap bikes, but would you buy one?
^ this

And, they do it with mirrors!!Woohoo Silly
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bama205 9/15/2011 9:24am
9/15/2011 9:24am
ODB wrote:
being an engineer you should know about torsional strength.....suzuki ,has long been said to have the best handling bikes ,mostly said from the frames ...kawi has...
being an engineer you should know about torsional strength.....suzuki ,has long been said to have the best handling bikes ,mostly said from the frames ...kawi has obviously found the answer with the frame as per RV and others wins and comments on the 2012...........all bikes are not equal and if it was that easy ,patents would not be needed
its a conspiracy theory.
Kawi didnt want RV to turn on the heat until he got on the 2012
Darryl_Crawford 9/15/2011 6:37pm
9/15/2011 6:37pm
TriRacer27 wrote:
Like ODB was sayin, it's MUCH more than just wait bias and geometry. To give you an example: A few years ago when Mike Larocco was...
Like ODB was sayin, it's MUCH more than just wait bias and geometry. To give you an example:

A few years ago when Mike Larocco was still racing on the honda, his mechanic would etch out little grooves into his top triple clamp. I'm talking grooves that were only slightly deeper than a deep scratch, and only about 5 vertical ones on each side. His mechanic claimed that Mike could immediately tell the difference between those and the normal FC clamps.

Just think of the factors involved with how a bike will bounce off of a bump:

- tire pressure
- tire compound
- wheel flex
- hub flex
- fork stiffness which depends on upper and lower tube dimensions and materials, stiction, weight, and not to mention valving and spring rates
- front wheel unsprung weight from wheel, tire, tube, brake, hub, brake caliper, fork guards, etc
- triple clamp stiffness
- triple clamp geometry
- mechanical grip between the clamps and the forks
- frame stiffness and geometry which depends on material used, production properties such as welding and heat treating, frame wall thickness, and weight
- engine weight and weight distribution
- auxillary unit weight and weight distribution such as radiators, carb, pipe and muffler, etc.
- engine stiffness and the amount of structural rigidity added by the engine depending on the type and amount of engine mounts
- swingarm length
- swingarm stiffness both vertical and lateral
- swingarm pivot location
- rear unsprung weight from wheel, tire, hub, brake, brake caliper, brake fluid, swingarm, etc.
- stiffness of the swingarm pivot
- linkage rates
- linkage material properties and weight
- shock dampening and rebound rates


There are more but that's the vast majority that a factory has to work with when developing a new bike. Factor in the HUGE variable of the riders and you can see that there is absolutely no way to develop the perfect bike much less to get the same results just from copying the geometry and weight distribution.

I guarantee you many Chinese manufacturers have tried copying the geometry and design of the major jap bikes, but would you buy one?
Very valid points! Good discussion indeed....
nickm
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nickm 9/15/2011 6:59pm
9/15/2011 6:59pm
Lets not forget that Honda factory riders in the 80s said the thing that made the biggest difference was the works flywheels that they had which allowed them to vary not only the weight of the flywheel, but how that weight was distributed on the flywheel...hows THAT for attention to detail.

Take a look at moto GP, do you really think Nicky Hayden and Valentino Rossi suddenly suck and can barely manage a top 10 showing ONLY after witching to Ducati? I mean between them they have a dozen world championships on Hondas and Yamahas.

Every single part of a bike and the way that part is built makes a difference..even if you had all the money in the world and used the most exotic materials, your "works" bike would still suck ass compared to well sorted bikes that have been in the game for years and years.
Darryl_Crawford 9/15/2011 7:35pm
9/15/2011 7:35pm
nickm wrote:
Lets not forget that Honda factory riders in the 80s said the thing that made the biggest difference was the works flywheels that they had which...
Lets not forget that Honda factory riders in the 80s said the thing that made the biggest difference was the works flywheels that they had which allowed them to vary not only the weight of the flywheel, but how that weight was distributed on the flywheel...hows THAT for attention to detail.

Take a look at moto GP, do you really think Nicky Hayden and Valentino Rossi suddenly suck and can barely manage a top 10 showing ONLY after witching to Ducati? I mean between them they have a dozen world championships on Hondas and Yamahas.

Every single part of a bike and the way that part is built makes a difference..even if you had all the money in the world and used the most exotic materials, your "works" bike would still suck ass compared to well sorted bikes that have been in the game for years and years.
Also really good points. Data "on paper" only goes so far. It's amazing what a good rider can feel!

Like I said in my origional post though about road racing, they are much more HP dependant. The Ducati is great but it is a bit awkward with the power and how it puts it to the ground. A rider adaptation is in order in that situation. Past riders have won with that combination. It doesn't suit Nicky or Rossi.
nickm
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nickm 9/15/2011 7:48pm
9/15/2011 7:48pm
nickm wrote:
Lets not forget that Honda factory riders in the 80s said the thing that made the biggest difference was the works flywheels that they had which...
Lets not forget that Honda factory riders in the 80s said the thing that made the biggest difference was the works flywheels that they had which allowed them to vary not only the weight of the flywheel, but how that weight was distributed on the flywheel...hows THAT for attention to detail.

Take a look at moto GP, do you really think Nicky Hayden and Valentino Rossi suddenly suck and can barely manage a top 10 showing ONLY after witching to Ducati? I mean between them they have a dozen world championships on Hondas and Yamahas.

Every single part of a bike and the way that part is built makes a difference..even if you had all the money in the world and used the most exotic materials, your "works" bike would still suck ass compared to well sorted bikes that have been in the game for years and years.
Darryl_Crawford wrote:
Also really good points. Data "on paper" only goes so far. It's amazing what a good rider can feel! Like I said in my origional post...
Also really good points. Data "on paper" only goes so far. It's amazing what a good rider can feel!

Like I said in my origional post though about road racing, they are much more HP dependant. The Ducati is great but it is a bit awkward with the power and how it puts it to the ground. A rider adaptation is in order in that situation. Past riders have won with that combination. It doesn't suit Nicky or Rossi.
Oddly enough in the case of the current Ducati, Hayden has been saying that it puts plenty of power, he just has no front end feel...ie: the only time he knows when he's push it too hard is when he's on the ground. So in this case power isn't the issue, the chassis is. They even went to the 2012 chassis to try and fix the issue - no luck.

It took everyone in MX a while to sort out the aluminum frames....just like anything else, even if you keep everything the same changing one small thing will impact everything - and what worked well in the past suddenly doesn't work!
Darryl_Crawford 9/15/2011 7:57pm
9/15/2011 7:57pm
nickm wrote:
Lets not forget that Honda factory riders in the 80s said the thing that made the biggest difference was the works flywheels that they had which...
Lets not forget that Honda factory riders in the 80s said the thing that made the biggest difference was the works flywheels that they had which allowed them to vary not only the weight of the flywheel, but how that weight was distributed on the flywheel...hows THAT for attention to detail.

Take a look at moto GP, do you really think Nicky Hayden and Valentino Rossi suddenly suck and can barely manage a top 10 showing ONLY after witching to Ducati? I mean between them they have a dozen world championships on Hondas and Yamahas.

Every single part of a bike and the way that part is built makes a difference..even if you had all the money in the world and used the most exotic materials, your "works" bike would still suck ass compared to well sorted bikes that have been in the game for years and years.
Darryl_Crawford wrote:
Also really good points. Data "on paper" only goes so far. It's amazing what a good rider can feel! Like I said in my origional post...
Also really good points. Data "on paper" only goes so far. It's amazing what a good rider can feel!

Like I said in my origional post though about road racing, they are much more HP dependant. The Ducati is great but it is a bit awkward with the power and how it puts it to the ground. A rider adaptation is in order in that situation. Past riders have won with that combination. It doesn't suit Nicky or Rossi.
nickm wrote:
Oddly enough in the case of the current Ducati, Hayden has been saying that it puts plenty of power, he just has no front end feel...ie...
Oddly enough in the case of the current Ducati, Hayden has been saying that it puts plenty of power, he just has no front end feel...ie: the only time he knows when he's push it too hard is when he's on the ground. So in this case power isn't the issue, the chassis is. They even went to the 2012 chassis to try and fix the issue - no luck.

It took everyone in MX a while to sort out the aluminum frames....just like anything else, even if you keep everything the same changing one small thing will impact everything - and what worked well in the past suddenly doesn't work!
I stand corrected. Good post!
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Mod Killer 9/15/2011 11:10pm
9/15/2011 11:10pm
Darryl_Crawford wrote:
Factory bikes! Everyone has thier favorite color (mine is red). I don't understand how they can be so different. You can make the geometry what ever...
Factory bikes!

Everyone has thier favorite color (mine is red). I don't understand how they can be so different. You can make the geometry what ever you want. Suspension can be made to what ever you want. Weight can be biased how ever you want.

you have:

balast
links
triple clamps
springs
valves
shims
bars
brakes
cams
jetting (ecu tuning)


I can understand a stock showroom bike but when you have factory support and the stock bike sucks you just change it! Right?


I'm not a fast motocross guy but I do race and I am an engineer and avid motocross fan and to me hearing over and over, "this bike sucks", "that bike is so good". Isn't it just a team struggling with set up? In my mind if the bike won't turn, make it turn. If a blue (bass ackwards) bike is unstable and a red one is so good (according to Larry Brooks, lol) why don't the yamaha guys take the measurments from a honda and match them? Put a scale under each wheel and match the weight bias and you should have a bike that handles pretty near the same just a different color. Road racers do it all the time but they are more reliant on power.

In my mind there should not be much difference at the end of the day. There is one set up that works in the perfect world, the other (small) adjustments should only be to suit rider style and track conditions.

Thoughts?
i think most the factory bikes are solid in the handling dept. honda, suzuki, the '12 kawi, and even the ktm are all comparable bikes. hp wise, again, all comparable.

the yamaha is a pile tho. nothing can fix that bikes issues.

williamsmotowerx makes a very valid point. but riders like rossi or mcgrath, that can communicate to the engineers are the exception. not the rule. racers are hired to make poor bikes look better than they are. not develop bikes. developing the bikes is the job of R&D dept's and test riders. i think everyone would be very suprised to know how little influence the race teams have on future bike development. meaning, the race team is simply there to market the bike. their feedback is not needed.

currently, i believe is the difference in factory bikes is in electronics. kawi has a huge head start. i would be suprised if they lose another title soon. rv is a badass and their bike is way ahead of the curve. its a unbeatable combination.
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jmar 9/15/2011 11:37pm
9/15/2011 11:37pm
Darryl_Crawford wrote:
Factory bikes! Everyone has thier favorite color (mine is red). I don't understand how they can be so different. You can make the geometry what ever...
Factory bikes!

Everyone has thier favorite color (mine is red). I don't understand how they can be so different. You can make the geometry what ever you want. Suspension can be made to what ever you want. Weight can be biased how ever you want.

you have:

balast
links
triple clamps
springs
valves
shims
bars
brakes
cams
jetting (ecu tuning)


I can understand a stock showroom bike but when you have factory support and the stock bike sucks you just change it! Right?


I'm not a fast motocross guy but I do race and I am an engineer and avid motocross fan and to me hearing over and over, "this bike sucks", "that bike is so good". Isn't it just a team struggling with set up? In my mind if the bike won't turn, make it turn. If a blue (bass ackwards) bike is unstable and a red one is so good (according to Larry Brooks, lol) why don't the yamaha guys take the measurments from a honda and match them? Put a scale under each wheel and match the weight bias and you should have a bike that handles pretty near the same just a different color. Road racers do it all the time but they are more reliant on power.

In my mind there should not be much difference at the end of the day. There is one set up that works in the perfect world, the other (small) adjustments should only be to suit rider style and track conditions.

Thoughts?
Mod Killer wrote:
i think most the factory bikes are solid in the handling dept. honda, suzuki, the '12 kawi, and even the ktm are all comparable bikes. hp...
i think most the factory bikes are solid in the handling dept. honda, suzuki, the '12 kawi, and even the ktm are all comparable bikes. hp wise, again, all comparable.

the yamaha is a pile tho. nothing can fix that bikes issues.

williamsmotowerx makes a very valid point. but riders like rossi or mcgrath, that can communicate to the engineers are the exception. not the rule. racers are hired to make poor bikes look better than they are. not develop bikes. developing the bikes is the job of R&D dept's and test riders. i think everyone would be very suprised to know how little influence the race teams have on future bike development. meaning, the race team is simply there to market the bike. their feedback is not needed.

currently, i believe is the difference in factory bikes is in electronics. kawi has a huge head start. i would be suprised if they lose another title soon. rv is a badass and their bike is way ahead of the curve. its a unbeatable combination.
the yamaha is a pile tho. nothing can fix that bikes issues.

It works well for some, but others, no matter what you do, they just can't get comfortable with the bike.

Pit Row

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Darryl_Crawford 9/16/2011 1:07am
9/16/2011 1:07am
Darryl_Crawford wrote:
Factory bikes! Everyone has thier favorite color (mine is red). I don't understand how they can be so different. You can make the geometry what ever...
Factory bikes!

Everyone has thier favorite color (mine is red). I don't understand how they can be so different. You can make the geometry what ever you want. Suspension can be made to what ever you want. Weight can be biased how ever you want.

you have:

balast
links
triple clamps
springs
valves
shims
bars
brakes
cams
jetting (ecu tuning)


I can understand a stock showroom bike but when you have factory support and the stock bike sucks you just change it! Right?


I'm not a fast motocross guy but I do race and I am an engineer and avid motocross fan and to me hearing over and over, "this bike sucks", "that bike is so good". Isn't it just a team struggling with set up? In my mind if the bike won't turn, make it turn. If a blue (bass ackwards) bike is unstable and a red one is so good (according to Larry Brooks, lol) why don't the yamaha guys take the measurments from a honda and match them? Put a scale under each wheel and match the weight bias and you should have a bike that handles pretty near the same just a different color. Road racers do it all the time but they are more reliant on power.

In my mind there should not be much difference at the end of the day. There is one set up that works in the perfect world, the other (small) adjustments should only be to suit rider style and track conditions.

Thoughts?
Mod Killer wrote:
i think most the factory bikes are solid in the handling dept. honda, suzuki, the '12 kawi, and even the ktm are all comparable bikes. hp...
i think most the factory bikes are solid in the handling dept. honda, suzuki, the '12 kawi, and even the ktm are all comparable bikes. hp wise, again, all comparable.

the yamaha is a pile tho. nothing can fix that bikes issues.

williamsmotowerx makes a very valid point. but riders like rossi or mcgrath, that can communicate to the engineers are the exception. not the rule. racers are hired to make poor bikes look better than they are. not develop bikes. developing the bikes is the job of R&D dept's and test riders. i think everyone would be very suprised to know how little influence the race teams have on future bike development. meaning, the race team is simply there to market the bike. their feedback is not needed.

currently, i believe is the difference in factory bikes is in electronics. kawi has a huge head start. i would be suprised if they lose another title soon. rv is a badass and their bike is way ahead of the curve. its a unbeatable combination.
It seems like the Kawi lights bikes are great, atleast compared to the geico honda guys. There is a ton of talent on the honda 250s. They shouldn't get beat every week. 450's, the lap times were damn close between Dunge, RV, Reed (in the first part of the season anyway). All those bikes could win.


As for Geico honda, it may be a team/training thing because the honda guys started out great then fell off. Bogle showed up and was riding great. Barcia started strong then got sick. Eli can win but just didn't seen to have the strength. Interesting now that I think about it.

I believe your statement about the race teams not having much to do with development for production. I would think it makes sense they have test riders for that.
Premixed
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Premixed 9/16/2011 3:15am
9/16/2011 3:15am
when motogp goes from 800cc to a full 1000cc in 2012, hayden will rise back to the top 3. i'd bet a months salary on that. when the horsepower/weight increase, and the rear wheel traction decreases, the big redneck boys always, always rise to the top.
Crush
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Crush 9/16/2011 7:50am
9/16/2011 7:50am
Stoner will still smash him... He aint a pretty rider but he's got bigger balls than the rest...
nickm
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nickm 9/16/2011 10:37am
9/16/2011 10:37am
Premixed wrote:
when motogp goes from 800cc to a full 1000cc in 2012, hayden will rise back to the top 3. i'd bet a months salary on that...
when motogp goes from 800cc to a full 1000cc in 2012, hayden will rise back to the top 3. i'd bet a months salary on that. when the horsepower/weight increase, and the rear wheel traction decreases, the big redneck boys always, always rise to the top.
I don't think the displacement change will make any difference at all. Hayden has said a number of times that the bike has plenty of power..he just can't feel what the front end will do and it understeers its way off the track. The Ducati is faster down the longer straights than any of the Yamahas or Hondas, but he can't get the dam thing to turn.

I'm a huge Hayden fan, and he clearly has the talent to be top 3 every week (along with Rossi obviously)...looks like they will get some aluminum in the chassis this weekend in an attempt to cure the front end problem...

http://motogp-f1-races.blogspot.com/2011/08/nicky-hayden-expects-wait-f…

Spies is obviously on a sorted bike..the guy can win any weekend, and his large frame is a 30 lb disadvantage over the small guys (Stoner/Lorenzo).

Personally I just want to see Hayden/Spies/Edwards in top 5 every race.

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