Dungey's gas rumor #472

WhKnuckle
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 12:42pm
I was at my favorite track today and talked to the track owner (who I've known for 35 years), and he's good friends with one of the big team managers, and the team manager told him that Suzuki ran some gas that is perfectly legal and available, and every team has tested it, but it's known to be unstable at high temperatures. I know the track owner and this team manager are good friends because the team manager comes out to his track every year on the day after the Houston SX, so I don't doubt he'd talk about this. This team manager said he thought it was a crazy risk to run the stuff on a 100 degree day, and his team sure as hell wasn't going to do it, despite the fact that it adds about 1/2 HP. Apparently, Suzuki was real worried about it but they had enough gas left after moto 1 for two more laps and rolled the dice with this special gas for moto 2.

Among all the jabber about this situation, I haven't heard anyone mention that Suzuki may have been running gas that was known to be risky at high temps, but that was apparently a part of the mystery.

For what it's worth...
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onenastynotch
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6/4/2011 5:34pm
all fuels must pass a specific gravity test .....all of the current fuels are oxygentaed ...if someone was using any type of propylene oxide in the fuels it will show up on the specific gravity test ...that is the only unstable substance they add to fuels oh and its illlegal too
flarider
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6/4/2011 5:36pm
Bogus and a cover

I know the fuel and who does it, it's designed specifically for that application and temperatures
mxb2
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6/4/2011 5:42pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
I was at my favorite track today and talked to the track owner (who I've known for 35 years), and he's good friends with one of...
I was at my favorite track today and talked to the track owner (who I've known for 35 years), and he's good friends with one of the big team managers, and the team manager told him that Suzuki ran some gas that is perfectly legal and available, and every team has tested it, but it's known to be unstable at high temperatures. I know the track owner and this team manager are good friends because the team manager comes out to his track every year on the day after the Houston SX, so I don't doubt he'd talk about this. This team manager said he thought it was a crazy risk to run the stuff on a 100 degree day, and his team sure as hell wasn't going to do it, despite the fact that it adds about 1/2 HP. Apparently, Suzuki was real worried about it but they had enough gas left after moto 1 for two more laps and rolled the dice with this special gas for moto 2.

Among all the jabber about this situation, I haven't heard anyone mention that Suzuki may have been running gas that was known to be risky at high temps, but that was apparently a part of the mystery.

For what it's worth...
Whats the managers name?

The Shop

WhKnuckle
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6/4/2011 5:49pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
I was at my favorite track today and talked to the track owner (who I've known for 35 years), and he's good friends with one of...
I was at my favorite track today and talked to the track owner (who I've known for 35 years), and he's good friends with one of the big team managers, and the team manager told him that Suzuki ran some gas that is perfectly legal and available, and every team has tested it, but it's known to be unstable at high temperatures. I know the track owner and this team manager are good friends because the team manager comes out to his track every year on the day after the Houston SX, so I don't doubt he'd talk about this. This team manager said he thought it was a crazy risk to run the stuff on a 100 degree day, and his team sure as hell wasn't going to do it, despite the fact that it adds about 1/2 HP. Apparently, Suzuki was real worried about it but they had enough gas left after moto 1 for two more laps and rolled the dice with this special gas for moto 2.

Among all the jabber about this situation, I haven't heard anyone mention that Suzuki may have been running gas that was known to be risky at high temps, but that was apparently a part of the mystery.

For what it's worth...
mxb2 wrote:
Whats the managers name?
I obviously went to some effort to avoid mentioning his name. It's a rumor that was related to me third-hand. I just thought it was interesting, and the guy who I was talking to is an engineering genius - he only runs a racetrack for fun, he makes his money doing exotic engineering analysis for auto and airplane manufacturers. He's not the kind of guy who would be fooled by a baloney explanation.
flarider
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6/4/2011 5:51pm
Many, if not almost all, of the top tier teams were using the exact same fuel and did not suffer the same issue

Just sayin'
WhKnuckle
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6/4/2011 5:56pm
flarider wrote:
Many, if not almost all, of the top tier teams were using the exact same fuel and did not suffer the same issue

Just sayin'
Well, one team sure didn't run it, and Suzuki had two bikes in the race, one of which ran out with 1 1/2 laps left and the other ran out on the way to the truck, so...

I just thought it was an interesting conversation. As I said originally, "For what it's worth..."
flarider
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6/4/2011 5:57pm
Suzuki ran the same fuel, both bikes
WhKnuckle
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6/4/2011 6:07pm
flarider wrote:
Suzuki ran the same fuel, both bikes
I know, that was my point. Metcalf came within a few yards of running out, too. I'm not aware of any other team that either ran out on the track or immediately after, but I could be wrong.
newmann
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6/4/2011 6:21pm
What was the rumored fuel in use? And how was the track?
WhKnuckle
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6/4/2011 6:24pm
newmann wrote:
What was the rumored fuel in use? And how was the track?
He didn't say what the fuel was and I didn't ask. The track was great, but I was sick, my neck was killing me, it was 98 degrees and I couldn't ride much - still, it was a hell of a lot better day than sitting on my ass in the house...
mag250
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6/4/2011 6:29pm
newmann wrote:
What was the rumored fuel in use? And how was the track?
Track was Great! And as they say hey it's.................
Come on over manana a few of us getting there early.
calimxer91
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6/4/2011 7:04pm Edited Date/Time 8/11/2011 6:53pm
Maybe it was'nt a fuel problem.
newmann
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6/4/2011 7:15pm
calimxer91 wrote:
Maybe it was'nt a fuel problem.
So they deviated from the prescribed fuel then? The same Renegade used by all the other teams that didn't run out or boil?
newmann
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6/4/2011 7:17pm
newmann wrote:
What was the rumored fuel in use? And how was the track?
mag250 wrote:
Track was Great! And as they say hey it's.................
Come on over manana a few of us getting there early.
Taking son number 2 to A&M in the morning for swim camp. Would love to get over there for a ride day.
motokid40
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6/4/2011 8:28pm
If he was out of gas, why did he keep kicking the bike?
plowboy
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6/4/2011 8:42pm
motokid40 wrote:
If he was out of gas, why did he keep kicking the bike?
It looked like he was shaking/leaning the bike over hoping there might be enough left to fire it up. Not sure that would do any good with a fuel injected bike....others might know.
dilligaf
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6/5/2011 1:10pm Edited Date/Time 6/5/2011 2:11pm
I crack up at how so many people know someone who knows someone who talked to this guy who knows.... Wink

I head the R&D team at Renegade Fuels and deal with all of the Pro teams directly, trust me the fuel did NOT boil as people think... IF the fuel did boil they would have called me chewing my ass over the fuel boiling! Did'nt happen when I spoke with team management and they explained to me the issue and how they are making changes going fwd for the rest of the year. They still plan on running the same fuel but now with larger tanks... If the fuel boiled in TX why would they use the same fuel and then go to a larger tank for the rest of the season???

As for the mgr who knows everything...
This team manager said he thought it was a crazy risk to run the stuff on a 100 degree day, and his team sure as hell wasn't going to do it, despite the fact that it adds about 1/2 HP. All the other Renegade fueled teams ran our SX4+ and I have yet to get a SINGLE call saying anything about boiling from them! Do you not find this strange??? Wink
flarider
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6/5/2011 1:15pm
calimxer91 wrote:
Maybe it was'nt a fuel problem.
dilligaf, this was my favorite post
fcr
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6/5/2011 4:47pm
So basically he just ran out of gas, Correct ?
JCRF217
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6/5/2011 5:29pm Edited Date/Time 6/5/2011 5:30pm
fcr wrote:
So basically he just ran out of gas, Correct ?
nope that just the cover, they don't want people to really know what happened to the motor, so they said the gas boiled, i mean ran out, i mean it vaporized , it was something with the gas in know it was. Wink
WhKnuckle
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6/5/2011 5:59pm Edited Date/Time 6/5/2011 6:12pm
dilligaf wrote:
I crack up at how so many people know someone who knows someone who talked to this guy who knows.... ;) I head the R&D team...
I crack up at how so many people know someone who knows someone who talked to this guy who knows.... Wink

I head the R&D team at Renegade Fuels and deal with all of the Pro teams directly, trust me the fuel did NOT boil as people think... IF the fuel did boil they would have called me chewing my ass over the fuel boiling! Did'nt happen when I spoke with team management and they explained to me the issue and how they are making changes going fwd for the rest of the year. They still plan on running the same fuel but now with larger tanks... If the fuel boiled in TX why would they use the same fuel and then go to a larger tank for the rest of the season???

As for the mgr who knows everything...
This team manager said he thought it was a crazy risk to run the stuff on a 100 degree day, and his team sure as hell wasn't going to do it, despite the fact that it adds about 1/2 HP. All the other Renegade fueled teams ran our SX4+ and I have yet to get a SINGLE call saying anything about boiling from them! Do you not find this strange??? Wink
That's what I'd say if I worked for the fuel manufacturer, too, but of course it directly contradicts Suzuki's statement. And what I was told was the Suzuki team was not running MX4+ (at least it was a fuel that's available to all the teams but is not a standard product).

But whatever. If Suzuki rolled the dice knowing there was a risk there, they probably wish they hadn't.
flarider
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6/5/2011 6:19pm
You're getting caught in smoke and mirrors
They all used the same fuel, no one boiled
Sherwood
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6/5/2011 6:34pm
It wasn't a fuel problem...

But what do I know.
jtomasik
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6/5/2011 6:39pm
There was this guy I talked to at the lake today who said he used to be neighbors with a guy who knew from a friend that friend's father knows for a fact that Void likes turtles.

True rumor.
dilligaf
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6/6/2011 2:29am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2011 2:30am
WhKnuckle wrote:
That's what I'd say if I worked for the fuel manufacturer, too, but of course it directly contradicts Suzuki's statement. And what I was told was...
That's what I'd say if I worked for the fuel manufacturer, too, but of course it directly contradicts Suzuki's statement. And what I was told was the Suzuki team was not running MX4+ (at least it was a fuel that's available to all the teams but is not a standard product).

But whatever. If Suzuki rolled the dice knowing there was a risk there, they probably wish they hadn't.
What is MX4+???? I Head up the R&D here and have never seen or heard of such a product... We have a NON AMA legal fuel that is called MX4 however this does not get sent to AMA teams. Kind of get my point of how some people get info from 3rd partys who know people and it is the word of God... Wink


Here is one for you to think about!
Would you be suprised if someone on a major team forgot to check the header bolts on a bike and the head pipe came loose in a moto making this insane sound for everyone to hear at a national... Then the team put out a PR saying the head pipe broke to save there own ass??? Must be a really bad pipe company huh Wink
WhKnuckle
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6/6/2011 3:41am
WhKnuckle wrote:
That's what I'd say if I worked for the fuel manufacturer, too, but of course it directly contradicts Suzuki's statement. And what I was told was...
That's what I'd say if I worked for the fuel manufacturer, too, but of course it directly contradicts Suzuki's statement. And what I was told was the Suzuki team was not running MX4+ (at least it was a fuel that's available to all the teams but is not a standard product).

But whatever. If Suzuki rolled the dice knowing there was a risk there, they probably wish they hadn't.
dilligaf wrote:
What is MX4+???? I Head up the R&D here and have never seen or heard of such a product... We have a [b]NON[/b] AMA legal fuel...
What is MX4+???? I Head up the R&D here and have never seen or heard of such a product... We have a NON AMA legal fuel that is called MX4 however this does not get sent to AMA teams. Kind of get my point of how some people get info from 3rd partys who know people and it is the word of God... Wink


Here is one for you to think about!
Would you be suprised if someone on a major team forgot to check the header bolts on a bike and the head pipe came loose in a moto making this insane sound for everyone to hear at a national... Then the team put out a PR saying the head pipe broke to save there own ass??? Must be a really bad pipe company huh Wink
I meant SX4+. Typo.

So as the Suzuki fuel supplier R&D head, you're saying that Suzuki is lying when they said the fuel evaporated due to high temps? Interesting....and a predictable response considering that stability in high temps is one of the selling points for that fuel.


First, it's possible that Suzuki wasn't running SX4+. Second, if a significant quantity of fuel had evaporated and escaped in the vent line, Suzuki would have had evidence of that in residual fuel in the vent hose and probably in the triple clamp stem - possible strong gas odor, condensed gasoline, and lots of dirt in the area that would have been attracted to the liquid and vapors. Third, Suzuki saying their fuel boiled isn't helping them save face - they still should have known from testing that it would be a possibility. Fourth, it's not all that unusual for people to just run out of gas on sand tracks because the rider uses so much more throttle due to the power robbing property of deep sand, but although there was sand on the Freestone track in some areas, most of the track was more clay than sand, so the simple explanation that the tank was too small is questionable. They didn't run out at Hangtown or in the first (cooler) moto at Freestone, only when temps hit 100+.

Of course, it's entirely possible that Suzuki richened the fuel mixture to prevent detonation in the hot temps; and it's entirely possible that they were running a tank that was marginal (like most teams do, foolishly IMO - I can't imagine why they don't just build tanks that hold another quart and stop worrying about it).

Either way, no other teams had a problem, but Suzuki had a problem on both bikes (Metcalf's also ran out of gas on before it got back to the truck), and Suzuki's explanation was that the fuel boiled.

As far as your slur about rumors, I can see where you're coming from. If the track owner wasn't known to me for such a long time, and wasn't a guy whose primary occupation is engineering consulting on very high-tech matters to auto and airplane manufacturers, and if I wasn't already aware of his close relationship with the team manager that discussed the matter with him, I'd have blown it off immediately.

The point of the whole thing was that, if the information I related was right, then Suzuki took a known risk and suffered the consequences. It wasn't just a case of "Gee, we had no idea that could happen."
Racer92
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6/6/2011 7:11am
Sam, the persons you are alluding to would never lie or make up anything at all. Truth is, I would wager those two guys collectively have more scientific/engineering knowledge than most anyone who reads here. Talk about a power duo of experience and knowledge !

Call me next time you head out there, I wanna chase your CR500AF around !

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