How can our country be great....

jtomasik
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Edited Date/Time 1/25/2012 3:44pm
...if the quality of the worker in our labor force sucks?

I'm interviewing engineering candidates. I have a 3 part test I give them which includes CAD file creation, an engineering knowledge eval, two simple engineering hand calculation problems, and a hands-on assembly problem. For this position, I'm looking at candidates with 3-7 years experience. It's amazing how little these people know, that they're unable to apply the theory of their training into a practical situation, and how much they'll be lazy and guess instead of thinking a solution through. They're turning out junk.


Pathetic.
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Void Main
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3/23/2011 10:41am
Got anything for a Engineering student (Mechanical) fresh out of college? Actually it will be another year or so but I figure I can help get a jump looking for possibilities.
TeamGreen
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3/23/2011 10:58am
jtomasik wrote:
...if the quality of the worker in our labor force sucks? I'm interviewing engineering candidates. I have a 3 part test I give them which includes...
...if the quality of the worker in our labor force sucks?

I'm interviewing engineering candidates. I have a 3 part test I give them which includes CAD file creation, an engineering knowledge eval, two simple engineering hand calculation problems, and a hands-on assembly problem. For this position, I'm looking at candidates with 3-7 years experience. It's amazing how little these people know, that they're unable to apply the theory of their training into a practical situation, and how much they'll be lazy and guess instead of thinking a solution through. They're turning out junk.


Pathetic.
University of Wyoming seems to turn out some good ones...believe it or not...Cal-Poly SLO, too.

If ya wanna pay for it...Cal-Tech and Stanford turn out good engineers (Composites is what I have to concern myself with; so, that might explain my bias).

To be fair, I have to fight myself due to a pretty extreme bias towards the Composites program at Stanford...but, I'm working on it...

Your best bet: professional networking to find the right candidate and go hire that person...usually...away from someone-else.

I'm jus' knowin'...
Mr. G
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3/23/2011 12:21pm
jtomasik wrote:
...if the quality of the worker in our labor force sucks? I'm interviewing engineering candidates. I have a 3 part test I give them which includes...
...if the quality of the worker in our labor force sucks?

I'm interviewing engineering candidates. I have a 3 part test I give them which includes CAD file creation, an engineering knowledge eval, two simple engineering hand calculation problems, and a hands-on assembly problem. For this position, I'm looking at candidates with 3-7 years experience. It's amazing how little these people know, that they're unable to apply the theory of their training into a practical situation, and how much they'll be lazy and guess instead of thinking a solution through. They're turning out junk.


Pathetic.
You are right, practical application is key. Here is a test you can give someone if you want to know if they really understand a subject: Ask them what their opinion is. If they just memorized data they will have no concept of their subject, just a bunch of data that is not sorted by orders of magnitude or importance. It's like every drop of water in the ocean is equal to every other drop of water. No differentiation.
Here is an example: I am a fire sprinkler contractor. I have taken a course in how to do hydraulic calculations. I can do the math but I can not tell you if the math is correct because I have no real grasp of the subject. True story. Lucky for me I never need to do calcs, I just took the course for fun but I would need much more study for it to have any real value. I hope you find some good people but I hear ya. I recently did a job where the engineering was so bad the job took four times as long as I have to fix everything in the field. It was no fun.
jtomasik
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3/23/2011 12:26pm
G, you nailed it. The reason I put together this series of tests is to filter the sales BS of the resume and interview and see what they really can do when presented with realistic situations.

TG, I also look for guys (I'm hiring mechanical) who have hands on mechanical interests (such as guys who rebuild/race) and/or guys who grew up working on ranches. The guys from the ranches, who really worked on them, tend to be very observant and efficient.

Void, PM me.

Beyond what's been commented, what blows me away is the difference between the tests and the interview. Damn.

The Shop

J.F.S
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3/23/2011 1:55pm
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite for any country to be great.
jmar
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3/23/2011 1:57pm
When it comes to hiring people, I think gut instinct goes a long way.
Sparkalounger
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3/23/2011 3:10pm
does the position pay over $150k?
jtomasik
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3/23/2011 3:17pm
J.F.S wrote:
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite...
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite for any country to be great.
Ahhhh....now I understand why I'm seeing so few well educated people...because demand sucks! (high unemployment rate...lol)


Spark: $150k/yr for a level 2 mechanical engineer? Now that's some funny shit right there...step away from the bong, buddy. Cut it in half and you're about right.
Sparkalounger
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3/23/2011 3:33pm
i'm so ignorant i don't even know what a level 2 engineer is, LOL!

my best friend just went back and got his masters and i thought he might enjoy colorado, hahah.

i have an e-mail that i think you would get a kick out of, if you want to pm me your e-mail i will forward it on to you.

i would post it but my lack of internet "skills" will not allow me to...
3/23/2011 3:41pm
J.F.S wrote:
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite...
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite for any country to be great.
While I believe this is simply fishing, our primary education system is largely socialized and it is producing more and more idiots.
KAWboy14
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3/23/2011 3:55pm
jtomasik wrote:
...if the quality of the worker in our labor force sucks? I'm interviewing engineering candidates. I have a 3 part test I give them which includes...
...if the quality of the worker in our labor force sucks?

I'm interviewing engineering candidates. I have a 3 part test I give them which includes CAD file creation, an engineering knowledge eval, two simple engineering hand calculation problems, and a hands-on assembly problem. For this position, I'm looking at candidates with 3-7 years experience. It's amazing how little these people know, that they're unable to apply the theory of their training into a practical situation, and how much they'll be lazy and guess instead of thinking a solution through. They're turning out junk.


Pathetic.
isnt it the quality of the democratic leader that makes it great to you guys?
J.F.S
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3/23/2011 3:55pm Edited Date/Time 3/23/2011 3:56pm
J.F.S wrote:
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite...
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite for any country to be great.
While I believe this is simply fishing, our primary education system is largely socialized and it is producing more and more idiots.
Socialized education needs to be good, all education should be free, good education should not only be available for the kids with rich parents or sports skills. Socialized education is pointless if only the second second rate educations are socialized. All education needs to be ivy league and free. Same with healthcare. With free I mean financed through the common sector. Not fishing, it really is common sense, once you have lived in such society.
Mr. G
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3/23/2011 4:54pm
The key to education in the main lies in the interest of the individual. The individual that wants to learn something will, but notice that it is of their own accord. Socialization is a form of control or I should say bad control that is liked by the less than determined. Not to paint a hopeless picture as Socialized Education is not 100% bad but it is a watered down form of slavery where the participants are supported by the sometimes forced non-participant. The key factor is will, it is not the revenue stream.
3/23/2011 5:47pm
Just like Void I'll be out and looking for an ME job soon. (less than a year)
didiot
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3/23/2011 6:22pm
Post the details of the test plz.


Also, it's because unfortunately the math of an engineering degree drives away a lot of people so you get the ol' mcdumb fuck bookworm nerd who can do equations in his head but doesn't know what way the fucking wrench turns.
3/23/2011 6:31pm
jtomasik wrote:
...if the quality of the worker in our labor force sucks? I'm interviewing engineering candidates. I have a 3 part test I give them which includes...
...if the quality of the worker in our labor force sucks?

I'm interviewing engineering candidates. I have a 3 part test I give them which includes CAD file creation, an engineering knowledge eval, two simple engineering hand calculation problems, and a hands-on assembly problem. For this position, I'm looking at candidates with 3-7 years experience. It's amazing how little these people know, that they're unable to apply the theory of their training into a practical situation, and how much they'll be lazy and guess instead of thinking a solution through. They're turning out junk.


Pathetic.
Hey, just out of curiosity, what are the knowledge eval and hand calc test and hands assembly problems? I've been out of engineering school for 6 years and haven't done anything engineering related since. Just curious if I still remember enough to do them.
jmar
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3/23/2011 6:37pm
didiot wrote:
Post the details of the test plz. Also, it's because unfortunately the math of an engineering degree drives away a lot of people so you get...
Post the details of the test plz.


Also, it's because unfortunately the math of an engineering degree drives away a lot of people so you get the ol' mcdumb fuck bookworm nerd who can do equations in his head but doesn't know what way the fucking wrench turns.
Some don't test well under pressure, but could be great at the job if given the chance.

Being in the construction industry, I have hired many. My gut feeling over rides everything else. Get to scientific about the process and you are going to end up with short term employees. I know that I wouldn't interview well, but in April it will be 22 years that I have been at my present job. The job before that was 9 or 10 years. We parted on good terms, and I left because I didn't want to move out of the states.
Scotty
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3/23/2011 7:47pm
J.F.S wrote:
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite...
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite for any country to be great.
While I believe this is simply fishing, our primary education system is largely socialized and it is producing more and more idiots.
J.F.S wrote:
Socialized education needs to be good, all education should be free, good education should not only be available for the kids with rich parents or sports...
Socialized education needs to be good, all education should be free, good education should not only be available for the kids with rich parents or sports skills. Socialized education is pointless if only the second second rate educations are socialized. All education needs to be ivy league and free. Same with healthcare. With free I mean financed through the common sector. Not fishing, it really is common sense, once you have lived in such society.
How much are your taxes again?
jtomasik
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3/24/2011 5:49am
TriRacer27 wrote:
Hey, just out of curiosity, what are the knowledge eval and hand calc test and hands assembly problems? I've been out of engineering school for 6...
Hey, just out of curiosity, what are the knowledge eval and hand calc test and hands assembly problems? I've been out of engineering school for 6 years and haven't done anything engineering related since. Just curious if I still remember enough to do them.
The written test I'm giving is targeted at a level 2 engineer and beyond, not someone without any experience. Some questions could be answered purely by what was taught in school, but many won't.

There's a general knowledge about mechanical systems section that asks questions like, what simple two-gear system would you specify if you don't want the driven component capable of back-driving the system."

There's a materials section that includes questions like, "Explain the main difference between an amorphous and a semi-crystalline plastic, and explain some benefits of each."

There's a parts manufacturing section that has questions like, "Describe Cp and Cpk. Differentiate between the two."

There's a static problem that requires the applicant to determine a minimum angle on a part based on geometry, spring forces, pull forces, and friction.

There's a tolerance analysis problem that includes the applicant to practically apply trig.


That's just the written test. There's also a CAD test, an engineering drawing test that requires one to know how to recognize primary datums and illustrate them on the drawing as well as an understanding of plastic design, a CAD assembly, and a BOM.

The assembly test is pretty simple. The candidate is given a sub assembly of one product I've designed and asked, given only a finished picture and description of what it does, to install the parts. It's only about 8 parts.

There's also a conceptual vizualization test that tests creativity.

There is no pass/fail. It's basically another tool I use in the interview process to get a feel of what's being sold on the resume and what the guy/gal really can do.
J.F.S
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3/24/2011 6:37am
Mr. G wrote:
The key to education in the main lies in the interest of the individual. The individual that wants to learn something will, but notice that it...
The key to education in the main lies in the interest of the individual. The individual that wants to learn something will, but notice that it is of their own accord. Socialization is a form of control or I should say bad control that is liked by the less than determined. Not to paint a hopeless picture as Socialized Education is not 100% bad but it is a watered down form of slavery where the participants are supported by the sometimes forced non-participant. The key factor is will, it is not the revenue stream.
So if someone is extremely interested but cant finance the education, what happens then? How could socialized education be a form of control, when the only thing it means is that you are free to study anything regardless of what you can afford to study, it is freedom. The only thing you need in order to study here is good enough grades, not rich enough parents. If you can pay your way, you only need rich parents to pay for you, you can lack as much interest as you want as long as you are paid for.
J.F.S
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3/24/2011 6:42am
While I believe this is simply fishing, our primary education system is largely socialized and it is producing more and more idiots.
J.F.S wrote:
Socialized education needs to be good, all education should be free, good education should not only be available for the kids with rich parents or sports...
Socialized education needs to be good, all education should be free, good education should not only be available for the kids with rich parents or sports skills. Socialized education is pointless if only the second second rate educations are socialized. All education needs to be ivy league and free. Same with healthcare. With free I mean financed through the common sector. Not fishing, it really is common sense, once you have lived in such society.
Scotty wrote:
How much are your taxes again?
I get more over every month than most of you do after my taxes are paid. Then add health insurance, medicine, college funds and shit you have to pay for on top, which I dont have to pay for. I am doing good actually.
J.F.S
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3/24/2011 6:51am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2011 6:54am
That should not have to be a problem, it is not a kids fault that a parent is a moron. If a kid with moronic parents had the same opportunities as Bill Gates kids, the morons would become fewer. I went to school with people whos parents were CEO´s but also with people who had immigrant cab driving parents, we all had the same opportunities and education. Money does not make you less of a moron, that is not what I am saying, all I am saying is that kids should not have to be victims of their parents. Biggest morons I have seen are those fucks who throw totally stupid and outlandish sweet sixteen parties and they seem to have shitloads of dough. So with if a larger part of the talent pool get the chance to develop, a country will be greater.
Scotty
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3/24/2011 7:10am
J.F.S wrote:
Socialized education needs to be good, all education should be free, good education should not only be available for the kids with rich parents or sports...
Socialized education needs to be good, all education should be free, good education should not only be available for the kids with rich parents or sports skills. Socialized education is pointless if only the second second rate educations are socialized. All education needs to be ivy league and free. Same with healthcare. With free I mean financed through the common sector. Not fishing, it really is common sense, once you have lived in such society.
Scotty wrote:
How much are your taxes again?
J.F.S wrote:
I get more over every month than most of you do after my taxes are paid. Then add health insurance, medicine, college funds and shit you...
I get more over every month than most of you do after my taxes are paid. Then add health insurance, medicine, college funds and shit you have to pay for on top, which I dont have to pay for. I am doing good actually.
What about import taxes, etc. I have a few friends living in Europe and it's expensive. Gas is $8 per gallon, etc. You guys pay for your healthcare and schooling one way or another.
J.F.S
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3/24/2011 7:20am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2011 7:21am
Scotty wrote:
How much are your taxes again?
J.F.S wrote:
I get more over every month than most of you do after my taxes are paid. Then add health insurance, medicine, college funds and shit you...
I get more over every month than most of you do after my taxes are paid. Then add health insurance, medicine, college funds and shit you have to pay for on top, which I dont have to pay for. I am doing good actually.
Scotty wrote:
What about import taxes, etc. I have a few friends living in Europe and it's expensive. Gas is $8 per gallon, etc. You guys pay for...
What about import taxes, etc. I have a few friends living in Europe and it's expensive. Gas is $8 per gallon, etc. You guys pay for your healthcare and schooling one way or another.
You pay for insurance companies on top of what you pay for the actual healthcare. Its like we buy our motorcycles directly from the Honda factory and get that price, where as you buy it from the Honda dealer so you have to pay their costs and salaries too. On a side note, Europe is not one country with one system with one currency, neither is Africa just so you know.
Scotty
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3/24/2011 7:25am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2011 7:27am
J.F.S wrote:
I get more over every month than most of you do after my taxes are paid. Then add health insurance, medicine, college funds and shit you...
I get more over every month than most of you do after my taxes are paid. Then add health insurance, medicine, college funds and shit you have to pay for on top, which I dont have to pay for. I am doing good actually.
Scotty wrote:
What about import taxes, etc. I have a few friends living in Europe and it's expensive. Gas is $8 per gallon, etc. You guys pay for...
What about import taxes, etc. I have a few friends living in Europe and it's expensive. Gas is $8 per gallon, etc. You guys pay for your healthcare and schooling one way or another.
J.F.S wrote:
You pay for insurance companies on top of what you pay for the actual healthcare. Its like we buy our motorcycles directly from the Honda factory...
You pay for insurance companies on top of what you pay for the actual healthcare. Its like we buy our motorcycles directly from the Honda factory and get that price, where as you buy it from the Honda dealer so you have to pay their costs and salaries too. On a side note, Europe is not one country with one system with one currency, neither is Africa just so you know.
Right but you are still paying way more taxes then we are. Is your system the same as Holland and the Netherlands? I have some Dutch friends and I'm pretty familiar with their system. When I send him something from here, he has an import tax on everything and anything I send. We don't have those and also like I said your gas prices are almost double ours, and most of it is taxes.
jtomasik
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3/24/2011 7:29am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2011 7:29am
I don't give a rat's butt whether the parent is a moron or a genius, the engineering programs now aren't focused on the tools necessary to design a product through manufacture, and they most certainly lack in teaching practical application of the theory they do teach.
3/24/2011 7:55am
J.F.S wrote:
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite...
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite for any country to be great.
JFS, because your system works in Sweden does not mean it can work in the US. Your total population is less than some of our larger cities. We are also a “melting pot” of vastly different cultures and values, where yours is primarily one nationality, with a common culture and a shared set of values. What the US offers is the greatest amount of opportunity than any other country in the world.
3/24/2011 10:16am
JFS, because your system works in Sweden does not mean it can work in the US. Your total population is less than some of our larger...
JFS, because your system works in Sweden does not mean it can work in the US. Your total population is less than some of our larger cities. We are also a “melting pot” of vastly different cultures and values, where yours is primarily one nationality, with a common culture and a shared set of values. What the US offers is the greatest amount of opportunity than any other country in the world.
^^^^^^This.
J.F.S
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3/24/2011 10:27am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2011 10:41am
J.F.S wrote:
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite...
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite for any country to be great.
JFS, because your system works in Sweden does not mean it can work in the US. Your total population is less than some of our larger...
JFS, because your system works in Sweden does not mean it can work in the US. Your total population is less than some of our larger cities. We are also a “melting pot” of vastly different cultures and values, where yours is primarily one nationality, with a common culture and a shared set of values. What the US offers is the greatest amount of opportunity than any other country in the world.
True, but Sweden has different cultures too, we have quite a few immigrants and people from many cultures, one city here (Södertälje) took care of more refugees from Iraq than the whole of USA did. I am not saying our system needs to be applied in the US, all I am saying is that you need socialized healthcare and socialized education, it is quite obvious that the system you have now does not work, since neither good healthcare nor good education is available for all americans. It is pathetic to see when people in a modern country need to go online on a message board and beg for heath care donations and it is also pathetic to see some of the spelling and grammar on the US message boards sometimes (mine included, but hey I am a foreignerSmile ) Oh and our system is in no way immaculate and it does not work perfectly all the time, but as far as health care and education, I think we are ahead of the US. You have great best health care and great best education, but the best is only available for relatively few americans. The US needs to be up there with the best for the general population too, the US and Americans can afford it and Americans deserve it!
TeamGreen
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3/24/2011 10:28am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2011 10:28am
J.F.S wrote:
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite...
Good socialized education and good socialized healthcare, so that the supply of healthy, well educated people is as great as the demand. That is a prerequisite for any country to be great.
While I believe this is simply fishing, our primary education system is largely socialized and it is producing more and more idiots.
J.F.S wrote:
Socialized education needs to be good, all education should be free, good education should not only be available for the kids with rich parents or sports...
Socialized education needs to be good, all education should be free, good education should not only be available for the kids with rich parents or sports skills. Socialized education is pointless if only the second second rate educations are socialized. All education needs to be ivy league and free. Same with healthcare. With free I mean financed through the common sector. Not fishing, it really is common sense, once you have lived in such society.
Believe it or not...

A good education IS FREE those that do well...and those that figure out how to apply...and those that fill out their FAFSA...even those that come from more "diverse circumstances" have Special Federal Student Aid acail to them...

On the other-hand: Are you saying that Ivy League schools need to be avail to all as to imply that's the "Real" education or the "Good" education?

Currently, I'm wartching a bunch of sniveling middle-class li' shits BITCH about having to "Pay" for their eduction. Fck Them!

Seriously, the U.S. has Plenty of Educational Programs for ALL...they jus' need to get their FAT ASSES of the Couch and "Get Out There!"

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