I agree with AMA on this one

TriRacer27 wrote:

I hate having to create another thread on this but all others have gotten out of hand and aren't actually looking at what happened. Specifically referring...

I hate having to create another thread on this but all others have gotten out of hand and aren't actually looking at what happened. Specifically referring to the  450 event, here's exactly what happened, and I would say the same if it had been any other rider in this situation. 

 

With exactly 3:37 remaining in the race (after Hunter had already passed the finish line), the official brings out the red cross flag. As you can see in the pictures below, when Eli took off from the small double, the flag was not out yet. As he starting to go up the face of the finish, the flag is still not fully unfurled (notice this all happened in the same second)

 

 

Eli and Kenny both do a double take over the finish line to see if they really saw a red cross because it was too late for them to back out of the jump when they saw it:

 

As you can see in that last image above, by the time Kenny looks back, the flag is already put away again! The flag came out at race timer mark 3:37 and was put away again by 3:36, which is why Coop (who would've had plenty of time to see it) still jumps the finish.

 

The rules clearly state that they assume the rider saw the flag, so not having enough time to see it is not an excuse. HOWEVER, there are two key caveats here? 1. The rule applies to when the flag is displayed, not when the official starts reaching for the flag or starts bringing it out, once displayed, which didn't occur until tomac was already on the face of the finish. 2. All of these rules are under the discretion of the referee, which accounts for whether a rider had reasonable time to react in a safe manner. 

This was an obvious screw-up by the official but it really doesn't look like either Eli or Kenny had a reasonable chance to react. 

Benchracer101 wrote:

Hunter rolled it. So the flag must of been already out....

TriRacer27 wrote:

I hate having to create another thread on this but all others have gotten out of hand and aren't actually looking at what happened. Specifically referring...

I hate having to create another thread on this but all others have gotten out of hand and aren't actually looking at what happened. Specifically referring to the  450 event, here's exactly what happened, and I would say the same if it had been any other rider in this situation. 

 

With exactly 3:37 remaining in the race (after Hunter had already passed the finish line), the official brings out the red cross flag. As you can see in the pictures below, when Eli took off from the small double, the flag was not out yet. As he starting to go up the face of the finish, the flag is still not fully unfurled (notice this all happened in the same second)

 

 

Eli and Kenny both do a double take over the finish line to see if they really saw a red cross because it was too late for them to back out of the jump when they saw it:

 

As you can see in that last image above, by the time Kenny looks back, the flag is already put away again! The flag came out at race timer mark 3:37 and was put away again by 3:36, which is why Coop (who would've had plenty of time to see it) still jumps the finish.

 

The rules clearly state that they assume the rider saw the flag, so not having enough time to see it is not an excuse. HOWEVER, there are two key caveats here? 1. The rule applies to when the flag is displayed, not when the official starts reaching for the flag or starts bringing it out, once displayed, which didn't occur until tomac was already on the face of the finish. 2. All of these rules are under the discretion of the referee, which accounts for whether a rider had reasonable time to react in a safe manner. 

This was an obvious screw-up by the official but it really doesn't look like either Eli or Kenny had a reasonable chance to react. 

Benchracer101 wrote:

Hunter rolled it. So the flag must of been already out....

Johnny Ringo wrote:

Hunter said the lights were on for him

Benchracer101 wrote:

Hunter rolled it. So the flag must of been already out....

Johnny Ringo wrote:

Hunter said the lights were on for him

CPR wrote:

Sorry it’s a very blurry screenshot, but if you zoom into the top right you can see the cross flag out way before Tomac got there...

Sorry it’s a very blurry screenshot, but if you zoom into the top right you can see the cross flag out way before Tomac got there and Hunter rolling the finish line jump.

Johnny Ringo wrote:

Hunter said the lights were on for him

CPR wrote:

Sorry it’s a very blurry screenshot, but if you zoom into the top right you can see the cross flag out way before Tomac got there...

Sorry it’s a very blurry screenshot, but if you zoom into the top right you can see the cross flag out way before Tomac got there and Hunter rolling the finish line jump.

Johnny Ringo wrote:

Right I agree the flag was out for Hunter, but didn’t he say the “lead in” lights were on also, this warning him of the flag...

Right I agree the flag was out for Hunter, but didn’t he say the “lead in” lights were on also, this warning him of the flag? Then the lights were off for the other 3? Thats what it sounded like to me anyway but it’s all so twisted up 

TriRacer27 wrote:

I think this official may have been doing the hokie pokie with the red cross flag.Look closely at this picture and then go back and watch...

I think this official may have been doing the hokie pokie with the red cross flag.

Look closely at this picture and then go back and watch it again. What do you see in the red circle, on its way back to the tower, that's supposed to be inside the blue box where the rider's line of sight is? 

Also, yes they were looking for the flag. I don't know how much riding you do but when you're going over a jump that naturally whips your bike to to the right, it's easier to look back over your right shoulder WITH the rotation than over your left shoulder. Try angling your upper body like Kenny's is in this photo and see how far you get trying to look over your left shoulder. Now try it over your right shoulder. 

Finally, the red cross flag is supposed to be static, not waived, to avoid being confused with the white flag. In the very first 2 pictures you see the flag unfurling, which either means he was waving it, or he put it out mistakenly for Hunter, realized he screwed up and quickly put it back out for the next riders, which explains why the lights were never activated. Either way, this is clearly a big screw up by the flaggers and my guess is, for the 450s, they decided that it didn't affect the outcome of the race and it was their mistake so they shouldn't penalize the riders. 

No idea bout the 250s though, that's pretty clear cut. 

Johnny Ringo wrote:

Hunter said the lights were on for him

CPR wrote:

Sorry it’s a very blurry screenshot, but if you zoom into the top right you can see the cross flag out way before Tomac got there...

Sorry it’s a very blurry screenshot, but if you zoom into the top right you can see the cross flag out way before Tomac got there and Hunter rolling the finish line jump.

TriRacer27 wrote:

Thanks for that picture. It really seems like they were unsure of the need for a red cross flag. If they put it out for Hunter and...

Thanks for that picture. It really seems like they were unsure of the need for a red cross flag. 

If they put it out for Hunter and kept it out, it would've been fully displayed before Eli and gang even came around the corner, but that wasn't the case. I THINK they were unsure and were either waving it around (which they shouldn't do) or pulled it back only to quickly put it back out again before Eli and Kenny had a chance to see it. 

This perceived indecisiveness about whether or not to put out the flag explains why they lights were not activated. 

 

Also makes you wonder if they grabbed the wrong flag. Were the medical teams ever deployed? In the 250 race, the racer wasn't even down, just in a dangerous spot between the jumps. I've never seen them pull a red-cross flag out when the rider isn't even down. 

CPR wrote:

Sorry it’s a very blurry screenshot, but if you zoom into the top right you can see the cross flag out way before Tomac got there...

Sorry it’s a very blurry screenshot, but if you zoom into the top right you can see the cross flag out way before Tomac got there and Hunter rolling the finish line jump.

TriRacer27 wrote:

Thanks for that picture. It really seems like they were unsure of the need for a red cross flag. If they put it out for Hunter and...

Thanks for that picture. It really seems like they were unsure of the need for a red cross flag. 

If they put it out for Hunter and kept it out, it would've been fully displayed before Eli and gang even came around the corner, but that wasn't the case. I THINK they were unsure and were either waving it around (which they shouldn't do) or pulled it back only to quickly put it back out again before Eli and Kenny had a chance to see it. 

This perceived indecisiveness about whether or not to put out the flag explains why they lights were not activated. 

 

Also makes you wonder if they grabbed the wrong flag. Were the medical teams ever deployed? In the 250 race, the racer wasn't even down, just in a dangerous spot between the jumps. I've never seen them pull a red-cross flag out when the rider isn't even down. 

CASH476 wrote:

In your original post you state that the flag was not out when Hunter went by. Now you say that the flagger brought the flag in...

In your original post you state that the flag was not out when Hunter went by. Now you say that the flagger brought the flag in and then took it out again just as Eli and Ken go by. Your explanation is about as clear and full of BS and assumptions as the AMA's. 

The fault here is the AMA's poorly communicated change of rules that don't appear to be in writing (they would have made them public by now right?) and the lack of consistency in applying penalties that are supposedly set in stone.

TriRacer27 wrote:

Thanks for that picture. It really seems like they were unsure of the need for a red cross flag. If they put it out for Hunter and...

Thanks for that picture. It really seems like they were unsure of the need for a red cross flag. 

If they put it out for Hunter and kept it out, it would've been fully displayed before Eli and gang even came around the corner, but that wasn't the case. I THINK they were unsure and were either waving it around (which they shouldn't do) or pulled it back only to quickly put it back out again before Eli and Kenny had a chance to see it. 

This perceived indecisiveness about whether or not to put out the flag explains why they lights were not activated. 

 

Also makes you wonder if they grabbed the wrong flag. Were the medical teams ever deployed? In the 250 race, the racer wasn't even down, just in a dangerous spot between the jumps. I've never seen them pull a red-cross flag out when the rider isn't even down. 

CASH476 wrote:

In your original post you state that the flag was not out when Hunter went by. Now you say that the flagger brought the flag in...

In your original post you state that the flag was not out when Hunter went by. Now you say that the flagger brought the flag in and then took it out again just as Eli and Ken go by. Your explanation is about as clear and full of BS and assumptions as the AMA's. 

The fault here is the AMA's poorly communicated change of rules that don't appear to be in writing (they would have made them public by now right?) and the lack of consistency in applying penalties that are supposedly set in stone.

Lineman25 wrote:

Johnny Ringo wrote:

Hunter said the lights were on for him

CPR wrote:

Sorry it’s a very blurry screenshot, but if you zoom into the top right you can see the cross flag out way before Tomac got there...

Sorry it’s a very blurry screenshot, but if you zoom into the top right you can see the cross flag out way before Tomac got there and Hunter rolling the finish line jump.

TriRacer27 wrote:

Thanks for that picture. It really seems like they were unsure of the need for a red cross flag. If they put it out for Hunter and...

Thanks for that picture. It really seems like they were unsure of the need for a red cross flag. 

If they put it out for Hunter and kept it out, it would've been fully displayed before Eli and gang even came around the corner, but that wasn't the case. I THINK they were unsure and were either waving it around (which they shouldn't do) or pulled it back only to quickly put it back out again before Eli and Kenny had a chance to see it. 

This perceived indecisiveness about whether or not to put out the flag explains why they lights were not activated. 

 

Also makes you wonder if they grabbed the wrong flag. Were the medical teams ever deployed? In the 250 race, the racer wasn't even down, just in a dangerous spot between the jumps. I've never seen them pull a red-cross flag out when the rider isn't even down.