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They, too, had about a million guys who would take their places if they didn't surf.
Again, if they could do it, so can mx'ers.
You want to change it as a fan.......Don't go inside the stadium at A1, instead stand outside with a sign protesting the things you want to see changed. If nobody enters a single stadium all season, things will have to change. That will never happen and for those who would just go in and watch, you can now understand how the riders might feel.
I support a union, but my living is not made in this industry.
* An interesting note i received, the author requests to stay anonymous but agreed to let
me share it with you....
Rupert,
Let me start by saying that I have enjoyed reading your motocross sentiments the past several years. While I have never posted on Vitalmx or its predecessor, I do keep up with all the issues and debates. Your latest ideas on a riders' union were especially intriguing. I have a few ideas of my own, however, I did not want to share them publicly.
To begin with, any documentation supporting any form of union would have to be well written, exhaustively researched, and highly organized. Something that I am afraid few people on Vital would be willing, or able, to attempt. If this were a serious proposition, I would be more than willing to help but if, and only if, it were done properly.
For starters, there should be exhaustive research done on all forms of motorsports unions as well as stick-and-ball unions. This research would have to show some type of financial stability and monetary profit for all sponsors and promoters involved. In addi tion, there needs to be a very strong model for how the "proposed" system will not only work but address every contingency it encounters.
Secondly, I believe there is a major flaw in your proposed model. You seem to be addressing the issue from the rider's point of view. I strongly believe that any successful proposal would first have to line the pockets of the oems. Like you, I am a bit of a skeptic when it comes to the under that table deals that seem to continuously surface from the AMA, Feld, and MX Sports.
To combat their apparent greed, I think the proposal should begin with how it will profit each manufacturer and team. My idea is to propose a "Bill of Rights" or "By Laws" which either Feld or MxSports would elect to adopt for their respective series. The "By Laws" would begin with a factory incentive; a salary cap.
A salary cap may seem counter intuitive, however, a salary cap would insinuate a salary minimum. Current top riders who would lo se money in a salary cap would be grandfathered in to the "By Laws". Incentive-based contracts would not be able to exceed the cap nor would signing bonuses. This cap would allow teams to spread money out over several riders instead of bundling it into two or three big names. The minimum would of course help the struggling riders and the result would be greater fiscal parity among the starting gate.
A salary cap, of 500k or so, would leave a lot of money left over to spread around and save the oems a great deal of money. While this is only the tip of the ice berg, I believe this would get someone's attention.
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Its the true love of the sport that keeps me going to these races, even though my savings are slowly draining. I figured we are only young once, so we might as well chase dreams while we have the opportunity...and beg and borrow along the way since it still costs us money to race even if we make the main.
I don't think a Cap is the only answer, as the future is not with the OEM's. Ask Dungey who his biggest check is coming from over the next few years. I can tell you it will not be from Suzuki, or KTM, or any other OEM.
OEM's are on their way out of this sport.
Band together to fix the problems, but don't use a union to do it. Unions are bad news.
Impossible, I know!
From now on, whenever I hear ANY griping from ANY pro riders at ANY outdoor
National, Supercross or Arenacross - about how THEY SHOULD HAVE a disability
plan, better PURSES and PAYOUTS, BETTER REPRESENTATION, MORE PRACTICE,
LESS TIMING - or how we should help buy some guy a van so he can get to the
races, or how we need to contribute money to any PRO RACER - I'm going to FIRST "
ASK - " Have YOU tried to organize ? Did you give a GREAT effort to GAIN
REPRESENTATION ? If the PRO's are too lazy or apathetic to enhance their
futures - why should anyone else care ? You guys are kicking your own asses.
The vast majority of fans wouldn't know a thing about or care about a riders union but if the riders walked out, they'd hold them accountable. (Remember when the lights went out in Vegas...) That's the closest example I can give that resembles a union walkout etc..
Many of us here may care, but most fans of the races won't. They just want to see a cool race.
A guy making millions does not need to worry about the guy paying $60,000 a year, if he goes away, another steps in. It has been that way for years, for ever!
Don't be disappointed when you don't get the support you are looking for. I have said it before, and I still think it holds true, to me at least. The power to change rests in the hands of those who do not need change; therefore, it will never change.
Sorry to say, but the riders are in it for the riders, the promoters are in it for the promoters, and well, the fan is in it for the fan.
What is best for one is not best for the other. Sadly, one can not succeed without the other. That is why the sport does not grow and the way it is going, never will.
The rich get richer and the poor just go away!
Where is Robin Hood when you need him........
But this is a sport that's going through a tough time, both economically and legally. I feel like MOST people (99.9999999999%) will NOT be able to make a living doing this. You're getting into it at your own risk.
Ryno784 is right, too. People just want to see racing. They don't really care too much about the riders themselves, I feel. They want big crashes and crazy daredevil tracks to ooh and ahh over.
There are several ways to accomplish this but one is simply a shift of fund allocation. In lieu of having a salary cap or in conjunction with one, a percentage of the OEM sponsor money is put into the purse fund, a percentage of the gate into the purse fund, a percentage of the series title sponsor $$ into the purse fund. What better way for an OEM, promoter and sponsor to motivate fans, participants, and most importantly privateers to make it to more races than to have something to win.
Lets say that the average payout per main event rider in 450's is $5000, and 250's is $2500. That's a mere $150,000 per event,16x, for a $2.4 million purse budget for the year. That is a big nut to crack. In a stadium with 30,000 fans an extra 5 bucks a ticket gets it done. I'd be willing to pay a rider guaranteed extra $2.50 a ticket and let the promoter and the OEMs come up with he rest.
Once the riders demand it, with real ramification should it not be done, will that have any possibility. Even then, I'm not so sure.
The riders need to, some how, own part of the business.
Truth is, the riders have no idea the power they would have if they became one. The power to control the purse money, safety, disability funds..ect.....
There would be no stadiums full of fans spending money if the track was not full of riders risking a great deal. Right now, the riders are left to find outside sponsors, meaning outside the promoter, to fund the promoters show.
Imagine trying to make a block buster movie and asking the actors to find someone to pay them to be in it. That is not the way it works outside of sx/mx.
There are so many things wrong with how this sport has been designed, maybe to many to fix. But rup is right, until those who are being used decide to group together, nothing can happen.
Is a union the answer, I know nothing about how a union really works. That question is for those who understand it better. I do know, until the riders band together to build power, nothing will change to make it better for them. And until the riders do that, they do not deserve to be treated better.
Again I say ask any cowboy how that can be possible.
Pit Row
A salary cap would be well placed in our sport to indeed spread the wealth. A better purse would obviously allow those that don't reach any kind of factory or satellite support the opportunity to make a living while going from race to race. Our sport is different in this regard, but each sport has worked out what is best for them.
It can be done and it should be done. Rup's last post speaks volumes about this. I don't see how any of us would not want to see our professional athletes taken care of in such a risky venture. Hell, even in Canada the Western Hockey League (WHL) has an agreement in place for their young athletes (15-20 yrs old approx) where for each year they play in the league with the hopes of getting drafted and making it to the show, the league will pay for their post secondary schooling. So, if by the time you are 20 or 22 yrs old and the lights begin to dim on a pro career, you can afford to go back to school b/c the league has given you a strong plan B-education.
The elephant in the room in this whole discussion is the fact that riders are disposable assets and are treated as such, despite all the hoopla about privateer funds, etc, etc that feld and mx sports and the promoters put in front of them. This is much, much cheaper than actually sitting down with a riders union and working out what is FAIR to both parties. The business side has to make money, but the riders are indeed the show, and they should have a better idea about what the business side profits are, that come in large part, from them. Good luck with that.
I have the world of respect for Davey and all the work he has done for mx, and he is a tireless advocate for so many issues involving our sport. I would love to hear what he has to say on this matter, however.
drop most the technical restrictions and allow freedom of innovation and technology, just with a budget cap. its a great idea that most F1 fans favor. it would solve many problems with F1 and most of the teams are for it. but yet it still cannot get pushed through.
the OEM's currently run the show. and to them, racing is just a branding tool. they dont need or use it for R&D despite how we romanticize it as such. they dont want a level playing field. they dont care about the privateers or private teams.
and let me say this, there is NO place in pro sports for true privateers. if you want everyone on the line to get paid like big boys, then their needs to be 10 four man TEAMS in the MX1 class that are legitimately ran. you cant just sign your flag football team up for the NFL next season just because you think you deserve a chance. there is a ladder that must be climbed.
and take the 250f class off of TV. the TV coverage needs to go to the teams in the PREMIER division that are still in the back. that way, every team can sell sponsorship, and every team can pay its riders. you cannot have a system where both classes are televeised equally, the teams are split up into the two classes, and the talent is thin as a result. leave the support classes (125cc 2t and 250f 4t) for just that, the riders looking for support.
grid fillers (read privateers) have no place in the premier division of a pro sport. that may not sound like music to anyones ears here, but if you want the entire field getting paid, you need the entire field to be legit. the teams need to take control of the sport. the OEM's are not needed.
This I know - I've never , ever received so many private IM's, emails, Facebook
messages , phone calls and what-not - than I have about this topic. WOW.
With most starting " Look, I don't want my name mentioned, but......"
Must be taboo or something.
Taboo means it's controversial. We shouldn't talk about it.
Beyond our scope of understanding..
These boys do it pretty damn good. The recreation of the GDPA after Senna's death in 1994 has helped make F1 as safe as it is today (and even before that time). There hasn't been an on track death in Formula One since then.
If the Atlanta SX puts 70,000 people in the seats for example, at an avg ticket price of 20.00 (low), then the gate alone is 1.4 million. I know there are expenses, but what % of that revenue goes to pay out? Ah, not much. Never mind series sponsor revenue, presenting sponsor revenue, etc, etc. Why would they want to talk about that?
And, it is NOT beyond our scope of understanding! It is simple math. The problem is the riders don't know what the numbers are. But if they didn't add up in a VERY positive manner, we wouldn't have a series.
The NHL has revenue sharing, the NBA has revenue sharing. If the league sucks, or the economy sucks, the revenue goes down. If the athletes take a positive role towards promoting their leagues, then they make more money. This revenue sharing doesn't include the money the team owners make on sponsorship, on facilities (corporate suites, etc). To my understanding, it includes gate, merchandising, and TV revenue.
as for revenue at stadiums. i think most here would be suprised to know that most sports dont make money off of stadium revenue. the only teams that do, are the ones that actually own their stadiums (cowboys and redskins). concessions all go to the stadium. and the gate is split between the home and visiting team (60/40 in the NFL). some teams pay to be in a stadium. some cities pay the lease for them as payback for the tax revenue the team brings to the economy. all in all, stadium revenue is mostly a break even proposition. so whatever you think the ama is making off of gate fees, just ask what they might be paying to use the stadium.
and sure, tourism boards pay big money to attract sporting events such as mx and others....but venues are not free. food for thought. for mx to ever make venue money, its going to have to own the venues. and thats not possible for sx. outdoors, yeah, sx, no way.
as for your thoughts on revenue sharing...
the nhl, nfl, and nba all have revenue sharing because of one thing....THE TEAMS OWN THE LEAGUE. roger goodell works for the teams/players, not the other way around. if there is to be revenue sharing in motorsports, the teams have to take control or breakaway, and then create their own sanctioning body that works for them.
any successful motorsport is a three headed monster:
the sanctioning body: there to create, execute, and uphold the integrity of a motorsport and to enforce its rules as written by the competitiors
the teams: there to write the rules (with the approval of the sanctioning body and commercial rights holder), and to compete
the commercial rights holder: the creater, promoter, and manager of the brand that is created to market the particular sport (for example...the fia created the world road racing championships....the msma competes in it.....dorna bought the commercial rights to it from the fia, who gives revenue to the teams. dorna branded the championship MOTOGP and they handle the venues, sponsorship, merchandise, etc, basically they package it and sell it for the fia/msma)
all three parties must work together. whats good for one, isnt necessarily best for all. but whats best for the sport, is always best for all three parties. and that is often the middleground that is hoped to be found when they work together and compromise.
the flaw in the execution of this systems in practice is that both F1 and MotoGP do not have very good revenue sharing. the teams dont do the best job of working together and so the commercial rights holder is able to pretty much run the show. thus most teams are simply grid fillers designed to lose. in motocross' case, the teams are just not represented equally or organized. its a dog eat dog situation between the oem's and the rest can go eat a dick so to speak. its barely a two party system let alone three. no checks and balances whatsoever. luongo's GP series is the closest thing we got, in fact, its pretty damn good. and its the reason the gp's will outlast whatever run our american series has been on over the last 20 years. his system is built for the long haul.
in say the NFL's case, they are their own commercial rights holder. they sell their own licensing and tv rights rather than higher a outside firm to do such. its more of a two party system with the players union on one side and the owners/nfl on another. the players union is guaranteed that the league will spend a certain percentage (about 70% currently) of all the revenue generated on player salaries/benefits. with the rest of the revenue going to cost of running the league and profits for the owners. sidenote: this currently why there may be a lockout next year...the owners contest that at only 30% of the revenue, they do not have enough to operate profitably and they would like something closer to 38%.
so that brings me to the point of this post....what are those nfl owners fighting for? the vast majority of the revenue that comes in is from the very lucrative TV deal that the nfl has. the only other things that can rival that in sports are F1s tv deal, the olympics tv deal, and the yankees got a pretty sweet deal because they own their own tv channel.
if we are to have revenue sharing in MX, where is the revenue going to come from? Most of all tv programing pays for its slot on tv. i remember when that shitty show friends was on tv. most every other tv program on that networks lineup lost money, they were simply there to advertise friends during commercial breaks and boost friend's ratings.
just because the nfl tv rights is paid for handsomely doesnt mean all tv programming is like that. the nhl's deal is worthless. nascars is allright but they depend largely on merchandise sales to survive. f1's is excellent but bernie keeps most of it. and the nba's tv deal is nothing like the nfl's, in fact, i have no idea how some of those teams are able to stay afloat. the lakers have to sell a rediculous amount of local sponsorship to be able to afford their payroll. most teams in the nba arent in a major city like los angeles so generating that revenue is nearly impossible.
without revenue, you cant afford talent, without talent, the league wont market you. its a viscious downward cycle. thankfully for the nfl, pete rozell made a point of stating that the leagues policy since the merger would be to always market all of its teams equally regardless of city size. it hurt the nfl early on, with teams like greenbay being allowed to win championships but its paid off big in the longrun because now every team is supported strongly by its fanbase.. mx needs to adopt this policy as well, marketing all teams, not just the ones in the lead. mlb and the nba have always just cared about the 4 major tv markets, and its why they are playing catchup to the nfl.
at a supercross event, im just not sure how much money is really going to be out there once all the bills are paid. the ama pays speed for the tv time they get. they pay it with money from monster. right there is a huge conflict of interest considering monster is also a primary sponsor of one of the competitors.
if the ama worked for the teams and not the other way around, you have to ask yourself, how much would be left over to actually have revenue sharing? are you going to not allow sponsorship of individual teams anymore? that they have to sponsor the series so that the revenue can be handed out equally?
if teams were allowed to go out and seek their own personal sponsorship still and there was a budget cap, they'd simply pocket the profits rather than spread the wealth.
just some food for thought. gate money isnt what its cracked up to be. stadiums are expensive to lease and maintain. and the tv money doesnt exist, because the ama pays to be on tv, not the other way around. its a fragile deck of cards that we are all talking about shuffling.
And isn't the ama strictly the sanctioning body for sx? So feld would be responsible for all costs associated with promoting (facility cost, rental, dirt, building the track, etc). So the ama wouldn't be paying for tv coverage-wouldn't that be feld as well?
Regardless, I understand that our sport doesn't bleed revenue like the NFL does, but within our pocket of revenue, there should be a way to form a union, or partnership if you don't like the word union, that would create a professional association with a professional relationship with the other stakeholders to the benefit of the workers (riders). Where there is a set of standards and accountability to the association to and from the other stakeholders as well as the workers themselves.
It still seems pretty one sided to me, Mod. Aren't pro riders still PAYING to compete? Talk about a cultural standstill. Well, we have always done it this way....really?
While we have come a long way in a short time, especially in the last few years, we still have a long way to go, especially in how we treat our professionals. Everything else seems to be a higher priority and I hope someday soon it will trickle down to the athletes. In the meantime, if I can speak frankly, I think the vast majority of pro riders in our sport get fucked.
we dont have to bleed money like the NFL. luongo doesnt bleed money and he has set up the proper system and its steadily grown. you should have seen the uproar here tho when he announced that privateers would no longer be allowed to compete in the GP's. people here did not see the big picture and threw a huge shit-fit.
the NFL at one time wasnt even the premier football in the world. up until the late 70s, most thought college football was the best football in the world. but it was the system that was established, and built for the long haul, that has them where they are today.
my big point tho, is that to set that up here in MX or SX, there is going to be major sacrifices that will have to be made by all. and the results will not be instant. its not just a union that needs to be formed, the union has to have the intention of a COMPLETE OVERHAUL of the entire business model as the mx industry currently sees things. thats a tough sell to any of the oem's, bigger teams, high paid riders, feld, ama, track owners, promoters, etc. even tho they all stand to gain in the long run, its just a tough sell when you realize how fragile the business is.
fragile, as in, contrary to popular belief here, there is no gate money, there is no tv money. theres support from the oem's and mx related businesses, but the only real cash out there is coming from energy drinks and they are as cut-throat as the oem's. imagine if the NBA tried to overhaul their system? david stern goes into instant panic the moment the lakers arent in first place. seriously, they depend so heavily on their big market teams, they could never handle a overhaul. they lost BIG money with the championships the spurs won early in the decade. if they went 10years of teams like milwaukee, toronto, memphis, and new orleans winning titles, the league would go under. they have a lot more money than mx/sx and even their whole model is too fragile to shake up.
im not against a union. im not trying to shoot ya down. im just trying to present some angles that you guys might have overlooked. a shakeup is needed. but people have to be realistic that the benefits wont be seen in this decade. and the goal has to be bigger than just trying to get some privateers paid. its a huge undertaking to do the overhaul that is needed. were basically talking about re-writing the entire sport. and im sure anyone who's ever put some serious thought into something like this is so overwhelmed, and that is why you havent seen anyone do anything about it even tho it is always talked about.
it'd me much easier to just go support the GP's than try to do a major overhaul here.
Listen to Ryan Morais' podcast with matthes. 2 problems dominate "what's wrong with the pro side of this sport".
1. Shysters’. Those who renig on commitments.
2. The money pool is so small.
You want to see it in action??? Walk the pits at A1... 3 of 4 you see owe and don't pay. They are laughing, smiling and ripping off every noob they can. This sport is ripe with rip-off connoisseurs. Masters at being the J-law of the money-midway.
Riders union? yeah right!
Maybe a cowboy would know the answer to the current problem with the sport?
It is a big chew to be sure, but surely at some point the stakeholders need to open their minds to a new and more sustainable vision. I read a great article many years ago that was titled, "Without crisis, there is no change" and it viewed crisis in a positive light even though the crisis that occurred was very negative. The result was a positive change to prevent that negative from happening again. It made a a lot of sense and this is what tends to happen in life over and over again-something drastic has to happen before change occurs. Maybe that is what will have to happen here.
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