Dungey Fastest in the world !

chrisbuehler
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9/28/2010 9:07am
500guy wrote:
Cairoli is awesome but he has never got it done
I agree you can't take the class winners and say they are the best rider bar none. How doesn't it say who the best country is?
yamazuki
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9/28/2010 9:07am
"As for the MXDN..... it's only a good indicator of the best team, not the best country. We've been over that one 10 million times."

I would have to disagree, the olympics works the same way, you send the best that is available. The reason you have debated it 10 million times is because it represents the country, not the team.

In MXON you are not representing your team, you represent your country. If for what ever reason the country does not send its best, it is still the country you are representing. Last year the US did not have the best team. The French said that but it still was representing the country.
9/28/2010 9:11am
yamazuki wrote:
"As for the MXDN..... it's only a good indicator of the best team, not the best country. We've been over that one 10 million times." I...
"As for the MXDN..... it's only a good indicator of the best team, not the best country. We've been over that one 10 million times."

I would have to disagree, the olympics works the same way, you send the best that is available. The reason you have debated it 10 million times is because it represents the country, not the team.

In MXON you are not representing your team, you represent your country. If for what ever reason the country does not send its best, it is still the country you are representing. Last year the US did not have the best team. The French said that but it still was representing the country.
Ahrrrrr dammit, I just came back to edit that part but too late....

I meant to write "series" not country but SERIES. Sorry.

Honest mistake.
yamazuki
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9/28/2010 9:28am
500guy wrote:
Cairoli is awesome but he has never got it done
"Admittedly Rattray was slow to adapt to the one day format and hasn't won a title, but is looking good to do so next year. Pourcel and Townley won indoor titles and both had very serious runs in the Nationals. Granted, neither has won an outdoor title yet but nore have they been riding around in 5th place."

Why is it looking good for him? Because like I stated earlier, our 250 riders don't hang around in that class for long. Trey will be gone. They will be racing our newest riders while they have had a world championship and an AMA racing season under their belt. As soon as our guys get fast, they move out. So even the lites class (which is divided into east west and there is only the Vegas SX that they race together further diluting who is best) is not who is best of the slow guys on slower machines. Pourcel has won lites SX championships but it still doesn't mean as much as a 450 SX championship because we don't know who would have won if both classes were put together. So I contend when you put East and West together in the MX class, the competition becomes much stiffer. Pourcel had the MX championship wrapped up, Cannard caught him then pressured him into a mistake. To come from behind and to win says a lot. But now Trey will move to the 450 class and leave the class open for another to win making it easier for a FIM world champion to win. No matter, even with this advantage they have not been able to win the AMA mx championship anyway. Even in the 450 class it took RC retiring and Bubba being out for the MX championship to go to a foreigner.

The Shop

yamazuki
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9/28/2010 9:34am
yamazuki wrote:
"As for the MXDN..... it's only a good indicator of the best team, not the best country. We've been over that one 10 million times." I...
"As for the MXDN..... it's only a good indicator of the best team, not the best country. We've been over that one 10 million times."

I would have to disagree, the olympics works the same way, you send the best that is available. The reason you have debated it 10 million times is because it represents the country, not the team.

In MXON you are not representing your team, you represent your country. If for what ever reason the country does not send its best, it is still the country you are representing. Last year the US did not have the best team. The French said that but it still was representing the country.
Ahrrrrr dammit, I just came back to edit that part but too late....

I meant to write "series" not country but SERIES. Sorry.

Honest mistake.
Agreed, it does not mean series. But since we don't have a series that puts Euros and Americans together we can only draw a conclusion when they do race together. Americans winning 6 times is a telling sign, then looking at when Europeans that come over here in say the 250 class is also a telling sign. Unfortunatly that is lacking in the 450 class.

I guess my problem is they call the FIM a world championship. But the AMA also invites any one from the world to join in. They call the Euros world champs yet the Americans beat them year after year in the MXON and in many of the races when the Euros come here. It is not that the FIM is a second rate org, but winning the world championship does not mean your are a world champion or the fastest rider, just like one MXON race does not decide who is the fastest.
wullyc
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9/28/2010 10:18am
with the fear of posting this in case big bill comes over and kicks my arse too ( its gonna be a long flight for you) i do think roczen is better than canard but thats only going on the mxdn race.
9/28/2010 11:15am Edited Date/Time 9/28/2010 11:22am
yamazuki wrote:
"As for the MXDN..... it's only a good indicator of the best team, not the best country. We've been over that one 10 million times." I...
"As for the MXDN..... it's only a good indicator of the best team, not the best country. We've been over that one 10 million times."

I would have to disagree, the olympics works the same way, you send the best that is available. The reason you have debated it 10 million times is because it represents the country, not the team.

In MXON you are not representing your team, you represent your country. If for what ever reason the country does not send its best, it is still the country you are representing. Last year the US did not have the best team. The French said that but it still was representing the country.
Ahrrrrr dammit, I just came back to edit that part but too late....

I meant to write "series" not country but SERIES. Sorry.

Honest mistake.
yamazuki wrote:
Agreed, it does not mean series. But since we don't have a series that puts Euros and Americans together we can only draw a conclusion when...
Agreed, it does not mean series. But since we don't have a series that puts Euros and Americans together we can only draw a conclusion when they do race together. Americans winning 6 times is a telling sign, then looking at when Europeans that come over here in say the 250 class is also a telling sign. Unfortunatly that is lacking in the 450 class.

I guess my problem is they call the FIM a world championship. But the AMA also invites any one from the world to join in. They call the Euros world champs yet the Americans beat them year after year in the MXON and in many of the races when the Euros come here. It is not that the FIM is a second rate org, but winning the world championship does not mean your are a world champion or the fastest rider, just like one MXON race does not decide who is the fastest.
In reference to both your posts....

I think I can see where you're going with this. Your saying that, generally, riders that enter the AMA lites class are young, frighteningly fast but also inexperienced. They learn their trade on the Lites bike and then move up to the premier 450 class. As Rattray is a GP veteran (and I admit he is) he should be able to beat those guy's with ease if the GP's are equal.

While there's some truth to that I can only say that in reality, though experience can be very important, fast is just fast. And veteran or not, these kids learn quickly and are a serious challenge to anyone regardless of what series they come from or how long they've been doing it. Rattray is a Veteran, true. But he never touched a 450 over here. He won one MX2 championship after years of trying and some would say, because Cairoli got injured. He's good, bloody good. But he's no longer an accurate representation of Europe's best and maybe never was.

Look at it this way, If Andrew short had moved down to the lites class this year, would he have beaten Pourcel, would he have beaten Canard? Just my opinion but I doubt it. And Andrew's been around for plenty of years and has bags of experience. To be honest you can't even be 100% sure that Dungey would've been able to beat Canard. Riders change, nothing stays the same.

Short would've most probably been battling with people like Wilson and Rattray. As I said experience only counts for so much. At the end of the day this is about moving fast on a motorcycle.

It's also true that because Pourcel and Canard are moving out the lites class, Rattray now stands a good chance of possibly winning the title. Agreed, he's not as good as either of them. But that's something that happens and has happened countless times and in lot's of different championships all over the world. Riders often move in when others move out. Not that Tyal winning is anywhere near a fore gone conclusion i.e Barcia, Whaton, Wilson etc.

Pourcel is a good rider and as a result he almost won the lites championship twice. If he came back here to the GP's he might almost win a world championship. The series are equal. You can't sit there and basically say to me "Well although he won races, because he didn't win the title that proves the series aren't equal".

The AMA guy's are very very good but if the MXDN proves anything, it's that the GP guy's are equal. Over the last 5 years (Bar 2007 when they were crushed) they either win classes or win moto's. If the AMA riders we're in a completely different universe of speed then that just wouldn't happen. But it does.
chrisbuehler
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9/28/2010 12:33pm
In reference to both your posts.... I think I can see where you're going with this. Your saying that, generally, riders that enter the AMA lites...
In reference to both your posts....

I think I can see where you're going with this. Your saying that, generally, riders that enter the AMA lites class are young, frighteningly fast but also inexperienced. They learn their trade on the Lites bike and then move up to the premier 450 class. As Rattray is a GP veteran (and I admit he is) he should be able to beat those guy's with ease if the GP's are equal.

While there's some truth to that I can only say that in reality, though experience can be very important, fast is just fast. And veteran or not, these kids learn quickly and are a serious challenge to anyone regardless of what series they come from or how long they've been doing it. Rattray is a Veteran, true. But he never touched a 450 over here. He won one MX2 championship after years of trying and some would say, because Cairoli got injured. He's good, bloody good. But he's no longer an accurate representation of Europe's best and maybe never was.

Look at it this way, If Andrew short had moved down to the lites class this year, would he have beaten Pourcel, would he have beaten Canard? Just my opinion but I doubt it. And Andrew's been around for plenty of years and has bags of experience. To be honest you can't even be 100% sure that Dungey would've been able to beat Canard. Riders change, nothing stays the same.

Short would've most probably been battling with people like Wilson and Rattray. As I said experience only counts for so much. At the end of the day this is about moving fast on a motorcycle.

It's also true that because Pourcel and Canard are moving out the lites class, Rattray now stands a good chance of possibly winning the title. Agreed, he's not as good as either of them. But that's something that happens and has happened countless times and in lot's of different championships all over the world. Riders often move in when others move out. Not that Tyal winning is anywhere near a fore gone conclusion i.e Barcia, Whaton, Wilson etc.

Pourcel is a good rider and as a result he almost won the lites championship twice. If he came back here to the GP's he might almost win a world championship. The series are equal. You can't sit there and basically say to me "Well although he won races, because he didn't win the title that proves the series aren't equal".

The AMA guy's are very very good but if the MXDN proves anything, it's that the GP guy's are equal. Over the last 5 years (Bar 2007 when they were crushed) they either win classes or win moto's. If the AMA riders we're in a completely different universe of speed then that just wouldn't happen. But it does.
Well RD outgrew the 250 and almost seemed too big last year for it( I have asked this 100x is he over 6'?). Having 20-30lbs on your rivals is huge in the lites class but Canard rarely beat him. And Trey and CP moving out of the class will def help Ratters but IMO Wilson and Tomac will have him covered. There's some guy from Europe coming who I hear is pretty good too, Marvin something? Lol.
Weeks381fan
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9/28/2010 12:39pm
Dungey is great but come on guys. Look at the competition he had this year, or lack there of. He is not another RC. I doubt he will win a ton more championships with a healthy RV and others out there. I mean no disrespect to him either because he is one of my favorite riders. Just giving my take on it.
chrisbuehler
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9/28/2010 12:54pm
Dungey is great but come on guys. Look at the competition he had this year, or lack there of. He is not another RC. I doubt...
Dungey is great but come on guys. Look at the competition he had this year, or lack there of. He is not another RC. I doubt he will win a ton more championships with a healthy RV and others out there. I mean no disrespect to him either because he is one of my favorite riders. Just giving my take on it.
There will NEVER EVER be another RC and it's unfair to compare anyone to him. I think RD will have a great 5-6 more years though and is gonna spank RV like a red uh.... nevermind.Laughing
9/28/2010 1:43pm
Motocross83 talks a lot of sense..


The whole 'fastest in the world' sketch is getting very old, and has been for some time. If I were to name that one man, that one person I consider to be the best right now, I'd name Dungey....but not off the back of his 'Nations ride. RD's mastered all areas of the sport, from MX to SX, MX2 to MX1, he's waxed the lot. He's currently the reigning SX and National champ, and convincingly so. There's no one else in the world who can boast that CV, and for that reason I say he's the man.

The 'Nations demonstrated that at least one other rider has his speed outdoors, but on the day it wasn't enough. Grant also proved this at the very same track earlier in the season, but nobody called him 'the fastest in the world'. Cairoli appears to be the man closest to Dungey, he has 4 (I think) World titles under his belt, and is consistently the fastest rider within the series he rolls in, but like RD, there are others that can beat him.


The first quali moto of the weekend saw Cairoli stroll it, RD had a bad start and worked his way to 4th. The last moto of the weekend saw RD cream it, whilst AC got a bad one and worked his way up to....you guessed it.....4th. Agreed, the moto's mean much more come race day, but there are comparisons to be drawn. Last year the 'Nations was in AC's back yard, he won the first moto beating the AMA champ at the time; the guy who straight up swept the Nationals. Cairoli didn't get a chance at the overall because of that first turn pile up, so people will never give him credit for even potentially being the fastest rider on the day. Dungey took the win in a moto that had all of the main contenders on the floor within 10 seconds of the gate dropping, but he got the credit any way. There's a definite arguement for 'being in it to win it', but that moto was exceptional.

When's all said and done, Dungey's got it covered this year, but next years he's gunna have his hands full with Stewart and RV coming back, just like Cairoli's gunna have to watch his ass with Desalle and Philipaerts.

It's great reading this through forum at the moment, there's been a massive change in attitude towards the GP guys since '07. I still think those out there who reckon AMA guys will always dick on the GP guys know fuck all about the sport, and like wise to the GP supporters who take the same stance against the AMA.



We have a very unique situation in motocross where by a domestic series is as desirable as a world series for fans and competitors alike, sometimes I hate it, sometimes I love it, right now there's a lot of love in the air!

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