SX doesn't need 350's

Smaller displacement is the worst thing ever for privateers, it just widens the gap between Factories and the rest.

I know it's beating a dead horse, but a 250T seems like the perfect machine for SX. Low maintenance, relatively low cost to modify. I still don't get why there can't be 250Ts in SX, and 450s in MX.

What if...

The lites class was a true production rule class.
Only mods being Pipe, Wheels/Tires, and suspension tuning.
Everything else has to be stock oem parts. No Engine mods.

And in the The Supercross class Anything goes just like the JMI race, run what you brung.
500cc 2-stroke sure, truley anything goes, works bikes, why not.

[quote="YellowZonker":296iert1]I know it's beating a dead horse, but a 250T seems like the perfect machine for SX. Low maintenance, relatively low cost to modify. I still don't get why there can't be 250Ts in SX, and 450s in MX.[/quote:296iert1]

You can race a 250T in SX, but you probably don't stand a chance at winning. The four strokes have come so far now that they are just an advantage, plain and simple, plus they allow you to carry more momentum through corners. If you ride them back to back you will see what i mean. I personally was thinking of another idea for SX, have a four stroke class(450F), and a two stroke class (250T), after all they do require slightly different riding styles and techniques, and then you could leave the 125cc and 250Fs for arenacross??. The only problem with that is, it would take away from the whole idea of having a "Premier" class since moving from a 250T to a 450F isn't really a step up. So that idea may not be so good and exactly why its not my job, lol. But on a serious note with the 350s, i think they would be a great bike to have. I sometimes feel especially for tight tracks, the 250Fs are a clear advantage over the 450, but think that a 350F would probably be a bit better than a 250F since the 450 could sometimes be a handful. I would personally love to try one if they made one.

[quote="KTM93":1nzemuk4]What if...

The lites class was a true production rule class.
Only mods being Pipe, Wheels/Tires, and suspension tuning.
Everything else has to be stock oem parts. No Engine mods.
[/quote:1nzemuk4]

I totally agree with that, and i think it is something that needs to be done. I bet teams with top equipment like Pro Circuit and YOT may not like that very much though because it doesn't give them much services to advertise when their riders are winning races based solely on skill and without any help from a superior motor etc.

[quote:1nzemuk4]
And in the The Supercross class Anything goes just like the JMI race, run what you brung.
500cc 2-stroke sure, truley anything goes, works bikes, why not.[/quote:1nzemuk4]

Nah this wouldn't work so well for privateer guys if factorys could run works equipment, not to mention for the general public. Think about it, the fact that works bikes aren't allowed anymore, forces factories to supply a top notch product to the consumer so that they (the factories) have a good base that is legal to work with when its time to go racing. Put it this way, the whole true production rule that you mention above is great for privateers and the public motocross community, but the boys with money to spend and products to advertise will suffer a bit and unfortunately we kind of need them. Would pro circuit make the amount of money they do now with their engine work service if they themselves weren't allowed to use it in professional competition? Nope, and there lies our problem because teams like that are who also pay the riders the money they are looking for, and it has to come from somewhere.

My thinking here is this is how you separate the classes, now we have pretty much two factory classes to compete in, by making a production class, and a works class the manufactures can prove the value of both their oem equipment and future technology.

The prod class will still have factory supported riders, but the advantage will be less.

[quote="KTM93":47de86dd]My thinking here is this is how you separate the classes, now we have pretty much two factory classes to compete in, by making a production class, and a works class the manufactures can prove the value of both their oem equipment and future technology.

The prod class will still have factory supported riders, but the advantage will be less.[/quote:47de86dd]


Good point. The only problem is the works class, i don't think there will be enough riders with a chance to win filling the gates. After all there are only 5 factories. I suppose there will be teams like PC and Factory Connection that could have access to works equipment too? In that case it would be cool idea, but you don't see any true privateers competing in that class.

Up to 1985 a rider had no choice on which class to compete in for Supercross, there was no 125 class, and all the factories were racing with Works bikes.

It worked fine then.

You don't think PC and FC already have access to works parts?

the disposable nature of the 250F engine is a big problem.

[quote="CR250Rider":14e7mtk9]the disposable nature of the 250F engine is a big problem.[/quote:14e7mtk9]

and what did F1 and others forms of motor racing do to alleviate that and cost issues?

[quote="CR250Rider":19pfk4pi]the disposable nature of the 250F engine is a big problem.[/quote:19pfk4pi]
True, but my guess is that production 250F engines should have more longevity than the ones modified to the very edge.

[quote="flarider":l4pr5if2][quote="CR250Rider":l4pr5if2]the disposable nature of the 250F engine is a big problem.[/quote:l4pr5if2]

and what did F1 and others forms of motor racing do to alleviate that and cost issues?[/quote:l4pr5if2]

How about answer the question not ask it or do you really not know anything?

I really not know anything

hmm...

the disposable nature of the 250F engine is a big problem.= Statement

and what did F1 and others forms of motor racing do to alleviate that and cost issues? = Question

[quote="flarider":y46preir]You don't think PC and FC already have access to works parts?[/quote:y46preir]

Yes they do, but you can only use works suspension in the 450 class which PC doesn't compete in. Also, true works bikes have not been around ever since the AMA implemented the production rule. If true works bikes were allowed, i think that would be the end of the privateer.

[quote="adamdf":7ad06jc3] I suppose there will be teams like PC and Factory Connection that could have access to works equipment too? [/quote:7ad06jc3]

You said "works equipment," not "works bikes"

Two different things

and there are works parts other than suspension that is legal and utilized

[quote="flarider":2fitcnyb][quote="adamdf":2fitcnyb] I suppose there will be teams like PC and Factory Connection that could have access to works equipment too? [/quote:2fitcnyb]

You said "works equipment," not "works bikes"

Two different things

and there are works parts other than suspension that is legal and utilized[/quote:2fitcnyb]

Sorry my bad with regards to the mix up (works bikes/equipment)...Yes works parts other than suspension are utilized, but largely do to customization to a rider's taste, not necessarily a clear performance advantage over another rider. I would say the works suspension and the best technicians to fine tune them is the biggest advantage the factories have in the 450 class. They may have some other custom parts on there, or an ignition curve their guy likes, but thats not say a privateer or any other rider would hop on that same bike and like it or be faster on it. just my opinion though.

The answer is to make a rule mandating that the engines must last for more than one race. That's what other racing series have done, as Dave is hinting at. It would drive down the costs of competing in the 250F class substantially if an engine builder was forced to build a reasonable standard of reliabilty into the package. No reason not to implement a rule like this, IMO.

How much is it rider, and how much of a diff does the machine truly make?

[quote="Adam43":1roq7vqh]The answer is to make a rule mandating that the engines must last for more than one race. That's what other racing series have done, as Dave is hinting at. It would drive down the costs of competing in the 250F class substantially if an engine builder was forced to build a reasonable standard of reliabilty into the package. No reason not to implement a rule like this, IMO.[/quote:1roq7vqh]

Great idea!! That would also give winning teams at the end of a series a chance to brag about their reliability and durability, which is a good thing for the companies and the privateers.

[quote="adamdf":pd8u64nq][quote="Adam43":pd8u64nq]The answer is to make a rule mandating that the engines must last for more than one race. That's what other racing series have done, as Dave is hinting at. It would drive down the costs of competing in the 250F class substantially if an engine builder was forced to build a reasonable standard of reliabilty into the package. No reason not to implement a rule like this, IMO.[/quote:pd8u64nq]

Great idea!! That would also give winning teams at the end of a series a chance to brag about their reliability and durability, which is a good thing for the companies and the privateers.[/quote:pd8u64nq]
LOL, the AMA can't even affectively enforce rules for fuel and noise.
Need to think more on a simple level with the resources available

Ok i like the "true" production rule for the lites class. What about if they did that for the lites, and for the 450 class leave the rules where they are now, no works bikes, but mods still allowed.

Using the F1 model
the problem may be that teams with the bucks will be able to build long lasting fast motors were the less funded teams will have to run slower longer lasting motors.
and just like in F1 the teams with the big bucks still dominate. and any money saved in one area is simply used up in another.
Team budget caps. if used fairly would be the only way to even things up.

[quote="tunedlength":2d0u0saf]Using the F1 model
the problem may be that teams with the bucks will be able to build long lasting fast motors were the less funded teams will have to run slower longer lasting motors.
and just like in F1 the teams with the big bucks still dominate. and any money saved in one area is simply used up in another.
Team budget caps. if used fairly would be the only way to even things up.[/quote:2d0u0saf]
Ok, who would you have enforce that, and how?

"Who" is the heart of the problem. As anyone here that has been to an AMA pro meeting can attest. The AMA does not want to have a rule that could end up in litigation.
I was not suggesting they use the budgetary angle only pointing out that short of complete control these rules really don't reduce the cost of racing.

[quote="Cygnus":1oedjxun]SX just needs to make the classes both 250's . Let the A class have full factory bikes and keep the B class the same as it is.[/quote:1oedjxun]

The 350/450 issue is global.

The all 250F-or-not in AMA SX is regional.

GPs are doing 350s anyway.

" title="Smile">

[quote="Racetime":3mr6se0z][quote="Cygnus":3mr6se0z]SX just needs to make the classes both 250's . Let the A class have full factory bikes and keep the B class the same as it is.[/quote:3mr6se0z]

The 350/450 issue is global.

The all 250F-or-not in AMA SX is regional.

GPs are doing 350s anyway.

" title="Smile">[/quote:3mr6se0z]


Keep that "global" bullshit at racetime where no one goes.

[quote="Farva":g1zry2pj][quote="Racetime":g1zry2pj][quote="Cygnus":g1zry2pj]SX just needs to make the classes both 250's . Let the A class have full factory bikes and keep the B class the same as it is.[/quote:g1zry2pj]

The 350/450 issue is global.

The all 250F-or-not in AMA SX is regional.

GPs are doing 350s anyway.

" title="Smile">[/quote:g1zry2pj]


Keep that "global" bullshit at racetime where no one goes.[/quote:g1zry2pj]

That was regional.

Just wait till next week!

" title="Smile">

[quote="Racetime":jwfh6w8u][quote="Cygnus":jwfh6w8u]SX just needs to make the classes both 250's . Let the A class have full factory bikes and keep the B class the same as it is.[/quote:jwfh6w8u]

The 350/450 issue is global.

The all 250F-or-not in AMA SX is regional.

GPs are doing 350s anyway.

" title="Smile">[/quote:jwfh6w8u]

GPs are definitely now going to 350s?