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Why is it whenever someone even mentions the word two-stroke, folks jump on here saying they're dead, beating a dead horse, etc, etc...
Then when the folks that would like to see a choice mention the displacement disparity, those same folks cry like a wounded calf?
The rules have been crafted to favor the four-stroke... if there was no rule allowing for a displacement advantage there would be no four-strokes racing in motocross today.
I believe that what DrSweden is asking is why can;t this idea be considered?
A few suggestions.... keep the displacement handi-cap in place for the four-strokes, but make them adhere to real sound level restrictions.
While your at it eliminate the homologation (sp) rule and allow some of the smaller manufacturers to compete. What are the big guys afraid of?
How about a different way... let the 125cc two-stroke gain an additional 25cc of displacement and the 250cc gain an additional 50cc of displacement. This is not what it should be, but it's a start.
Then let the market decide which bike is "dead"...
The homologations rule is just stupid, what shit of a difference would it make if someone wanted to race a TM ( badass) or a Maico, LOL, or whatever.
ANd yeah another good point let the lites class be up to like a 150cc 2 stroke, and big class 300cc 2 stroke, or just be fair about it and let 250 2-stroke in the lites class in pro's and whatever big bore 2 stroke you want in the big bike class, like a 350 or something.
But none of this will probably ever happen, because 4 stroke are it now, and the OEM's dont want to mess with 2-stroke anymore.
To many people love blowing more money than neccesary on there 4 stroke, cause there skill level and ability allows them to ride a 4 stroke much faster than they could ever ride a 2 stroke, and they feel like superman so a $1,000 rebuild compared to a $300 rebuild is ok to them, but then they try jumping some big jump they should never ever be attempting and they break there back or neck or whatever and get seriously injured, Leatt brace or not!
I love 2 strokes, I love smelling the fumes of them, and I am capable of riding one just as fast as I could ride a 4 stroke so why waste all that money.
Remember the glory days of 2005-2007? They had like four bikes each on the sales floor.
Well, as it is, I think KTM is steeling buyers from the Japs and maybe soon it's going to hurt them to the point where they will spit something out? Especially when this constant bitch and moan about rebuild (I bitch and moan as well) is heard.
This new YZ150 kit Yamaha promoted some time ago is an indication I think...
A while ago, on 2 Stroke Motocross's front page, some guys where were leaving comments in response to one of the articles, I think it was Jody's "Two Stroke Manifesto" in MXA. In the course of those comments, I thought one guy noted the renegade pro 2 stroke stance maintaned by some guys like Jody W, and another guy said something about being so glad to have some voices like Jody's out there to counter the conformist pro 4 stroke, vanilla whitewash of certain "Kool Aid Pusher Fan Boys". When I read that, I thought for SURE that the main "Kool Aid Pusher Fan Boys" must be Transworld Motocross.
Just about everything in that magazine seems to be written to serve it's advertising patrons. A lot of times their point of view on bikes reads sort of like the glossy brochures at the dealership. Therefore, Corporately Formulated Kool Aid Buzz-Words like "Technology", "Technologically Advanced", "Advanced Technology", and "New 4 Strokes" are splashed accross it's pages like the costume jewels of some big gay Vegas stage.
I saw that they reviewed the 150 SX and they do say some nice things about it. I take issue with the POSTURE of the article, however. When you read the review of the 2010 RM-Z250, it sounds like an MX magazine reviewing a race bike, with lots of toe-tapping terms like "More Powerul", "Instantaneous Throttle Response", and "Better Handling". I think their review of the 150 SX should have the same kind of beat, but it doesn't. When I read that article, it sound's like they are reviewing something other than a race bike. They say some nice things, "The 150 SX is, without a doubt, incredibly powerful -" but almost every favorable thing they say is immediately followed by some kind of shrugging, negative conterbalance "- for a little two-stroke." And on top of that I wonder how they can even mention saccarine, like the electronically solicited, imitation, sort-of throttle response of the 250 four stroke while never uttering the words "Instantaneous Throttle Response" in describing the KTM 2 stoke.
Also interestingly enough I noticed that in each of the 2 reviews I mention here, there is a reference to the reviewed machine's bigger bother. While talking about the RM-Z 250, they mention that it's EFI system is derived directly from the "Tried and true 450". On the other hand, when talking about the 150 SX, they insinuate it's relationship to "The heavier, light-switchy 250cc".
Let's see now... "Tried and true" = Suzuki 450 four stroke? / "Heavier, light-switchy 250cc" = 250 two stroke? Huh? Seriously???
I have a question, how come everyone seems so reluctant to mention the words heavy, bulky, heavier, or heaviest anywhere near four storkes??? In the dancing puppet show that is motocross media these days, a four stroke's bump-flattening weight is only refferenced indireclty, and favorably as "Stability"...
What kind of backward bizzarro world are we living in when magazines are associating terms like "Instantaneous Throttle Response" with 250 Four Stroke lug-buggies and terms like "Heavier" with 250 Two Strokes???
I mean jesus man are these guys kidding?
Thanks,
Jim
The Shop
DeCal Works Huge Plastic Inventory of UFO and Polisport kits.
Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
$189.95 - $239.95
I think the two strokes should be allowed 175 to 200 CCs.
As far as the 450 class. Bring what ever you are man enough to ride because anything any bigger would be a disadvantage.
I agree, but 450 vs 450 in supercross, I don't think so.
how many teams would there be if the 2 stroke would be allowed in SX AND MX. 250's in the 250 class and 450's and 500's in the "open class".
how many riders were there in toronto? 23 for the SX class? would that number been larger if there were more teams?
who will be the first to allow it? because who ever does allow this will have to deal with the people who are footing the bills so to speak.
likely it will never happen. as long as amatuer stays the way it is and it's not screwed with......... I can watch this stuff on Tv til the weather changes.
who will be the first to make a big deal out of "battle of the strokes" at an event and see if it attracts the "older" crowd that as everyone in here gets fed up listening to about stroke envy. LOL na it won't work.
http://www.megacross.com/results/july5.html
I have said it more than once, but I will say it again. For the average Joe, the four stroke is not any more to race when it comes to suprecross than a two stroke, and they are a lot less work.
Especially in the 450 class.
Then normal outdoors... might help the injuries? Tho, Nico Izzi might disagree...
Allow the two strokes up to 200 ccs and let them race. As far as the 450 class, it should be unlimited to two strokes.
in the 250 class......well it would allow more lower budget teams no question. But it would also show the OEM's what they already know............
So the only thing that needs to be done is that FIM, AMA, Youthstream or whatever started growing some damn sack/balls by letting them back in on (fair grounds). Make it so they are equal if it's 150 cc in "lites" or 175...
Just do SOMETHING because now it seems the sport, riders are decreasing?
Pit Row
While it's true that you can spend large sums of money modifying a two-stroke, it's not about the initial cost at that level, it's about having the money to keep that bike in race condition for an entire season. Not everyone has the money to own a "race" bike and a "practice" bike, so they have to use the one bike for both.
If the FIM/AMA would modify the rules just slightly to make racing a two-stroke competitive with the four-strokes, it could change the nature of our industry in very positive ways.
The funny part of this whole thing is, just one change, sound levels could make the current rules work!
Read this quote from Pro Circuit that was published in MXA,
” In a recent test of mufflers, Pro Circuit built a 90dB muffler, 96dB muffler, 99db muffler and 102dB muffler. They tested all four mufflers with their sound test equipment and on their dyno. Once they had established all the criteria, they took all four mufflers out and did drive-by sound tests at full throttle. Surprise, all four mufflers were within 1dB of each other. They all ranged from 112dB to 113dB. Pro Circuit’s conclusion? Testing sound at a low rpm, when the bikes are ridden at a high rpm, is a total waste of time….. By the way, using the AMA/FIM sound equipment, a bike running full blast on the dyno taps out at 132 decibels.”
Excerpt from Ask the MXperts
It would be interesting to see how a quiet four-stroke would compare to the half-sized two-stroke, running on unleaded fuel?
Another interesting fact... bike sales are quite high right now! In what area? The used two-stroke market is very strong, 125cc bikes in particular.
The manufacturers might want to look at that....
125 two stroke 4800
250 two stroke 5800
250f 4600 (or something like that....)
450f 4600
The two strokes were much more expensive to purchase new.
Why?
Demand is very high with very small supply right now.
They can't give the four strokes away.
Dealers arent selling shit for bikes right now.
Guess what...they also aren't selling shit for parts. It goes hand in hand. You buy a new bike...you get your parts from that place often.
No bike sales, no parts sales.
I managed to talk to an un named factory mechanic for one of the big four with a marquee rider.
They rebuild the race 450's every 50 minutes of run time (exactly one sx night) from the ground up.
The mechanics dont even open the engine, instead it is taken out after the night of racing and overnighted to the engine builder. Then rebuild and over nighted to the next venue. there the mechanic puts it in the bike.
A rotation of three engines is used, where cases are replaced (and every thing inside) every three races.
At a practice bike level I do not know how often they are rebuilt..but he said it was often and a rotation of engines was used there too.
Just think of the cost now days...the mechanic no longer does anything with the engines. Instead another guy is added to do that work, plus overnight shipping costs every week (I would guess with huge amounts of insurance). Plus the added parts cost of the motor (just because it's really high tech)
I like to say it this way.
The modern four stroke is an engineering and materials marvel. As this area of development progresses (material properties and computer power) the four stroke does as well.
The modern two stroke is a gas dynamics/resonance marvel.
Anyways...funny side note:
For this particular rider, nearly everything is supplied...except one thing! Race gas for practice bikes!!!!
This particular rider used a gas that is 23 a gallon for his practice bikes...now he certainly makes enough to pay for it, but that's got to add up!
And, the cost of maintaing these engines is also twice the price. I always import engine parts from the US. So I think we in Europe are craving for cheaper bikes in every aspect even more? I actually lied to my wife some years ago when I bought valve-kit for my CRF because I was embarrassed about the cost for my hobby.
Something is pretty messed up, and I don't get how anyone find motivation to buy the latest version of these expensive and fragile scooters. Also when these new EFIs tend to be crappy with fuel leaking in the engine oil etc one really feels this hobby is odd.
Still you can buy a used old smoker from 04-05, do a top-end rebuild and drive for three seasons with minimum maintenance and just have fun!
Floorplan buybacks?
Imagine how many small satellite teams can now afford to run a 1 or 2 man team in a national series.
2 strokes are superior in every way to a fourstroke of the SAME capacity.
$13000 for a new '10 450 f ..... we pay about $11500, or about $8500 for a '10 yz 250 2 stroke.
GO MOSSY'S
Wish they would!!!
Now Europe and USA needs to do the same. Unfortunately (how I interpret this) these series are harbour/creates/receive more money which means too many people are being breast fed from the same source (OEM). So the same can't think clearly because of the obvious fear to end up without an income.
They are being short sighted of course, and slowly they are killing it for everybody. But I guess April and May mortgage for the Beemer is covered…
As its is now KTM are steeling buyers from the Japs. Supply and demand should always dictate the market and one shall not mess with that. We didn't have a big need for more technicalla advanced bikes when they forced fourstrokes on us, but we gave it a try and look where it brought us. People would not have picked fourstrokes if the roules were more even. You tried a brave experiment to see just how much we love to ride and how much we were willing to give up and pay for it. It was a stupid move, and they should react fast to win riders back. When you have given up and sold your bike and bus it's not like you have the money lying around for a long time. They will pretty fast end up somewhere else because when you choose to ride mx you give up a lot of other things.
No one can make a living of selling helmets etc to F1 drivers or even roadracing guys. Those are sports that are driven and financed by regular consumers. Motocrossbikes and equipment are consumed by riders. Besides the riders nobody gives a shit really.
This is a tip to the OEM's. We are not rich, we are getting fewer. Your bikes are to loud.
Make us some cheaper bikes and put the biggest stars on them. We will then buy more bikes, tell all our friends this is a good sport that ordinary people can afford. In the long run this will be much better for all of us. Can we have a deal?
Post a reply to: Now when CP is bitchslappning the 450s on his 250F...