Big strong and/or Tall guys have no place in pro MX/SX these days

FIREfish148 wrote:

So are you saying midgets are less prone to getting injured than i am? Is that what your trying to say?

Moto East Mag wrote:

This is gonna be good (puts popcorn in microwave, opens beer)

751 wrote:

I will join ya, let me grab the cooler!!!

Yaya wrote:

Just tapped a keg, wanna join haha

Moto112 wrote:

Ever since Jeff ward started winning the writing was on the wall for the big guys that MX was going to be the domain of the...

Ever since Jeff ward started winning the writing was on the wall for the big guys that MX was going to be the domain of the short people.

I want to see anyone that wants to race to be able to have the same mid corner speed and the same corner to corner speed, and right now that ain't the case. The big boys transfer so much weight (that is higher up on their bodies) from the front of the bike to the rear that they are really not riding in the same class with the same advantages as the mighty mites. If we had rules that created an equal playing field I think you'd see different people winning regularly.

Now I'm only just about 1/2" over 6' and about 185 (when trained down to fighting weight), and I fit the current bikes just fine, so don't say I'm suggesting this because I'm one of the big guys but, as a current pro I would still have some disadvantage against the smaller guys. I think Windham and Millsaps must both be phenoms based on the disadvantage that I know they have, even though neither is my favorite rider. That throttle pinning radical kid Josh Grant is my favorite and he fits the bike perfectly.

When I was young, in pro MX we had the 500 class and it was where all the 6'+ boys rode, some of them were even 6' 3"+ and a few over 220 lbs., example; John Finkelday, Alan King, etc. Back then, and now, the little guys could lift weights and train to put on body weight, where the big guys had to stay too skinny and that really hurt them when they crashed. Even back then the little guys had the start advantage and after about 1985 the suspension rebound got more controllable and the forks ridged enough to negate any real strength and larger body that was needed. As soon as Jeff Ward started winning on a 250 (1984 & 1985) it was clear that big bodies were a big handicap and the days of the big guys were all but over. .

Its even worse now! Look at career longevity vs height in MX/SX and you will see exactly what I mean! The tall guys don't last long, with just a few exceptions (Larry ward)! Look at success vs height, there is a even bigger disparity there. Travis Pastrana is a perfect example, the kid was too big to have been on 125's when he was on 125's and still he won. He went over the bars a few times too many, and his skinny body broke instead of rolling like Charmichaels always seemed to do, and it ended his seasons and eventually his career early. Travis needed bigger bikes, with a longer wheelbase to minimize the weight transfer, and keep him from going over the bars, and he needed to get stronger (and weigh more) so he could stay together after a big crash.

Watch the video of Windham beating Charmichael at the 2001 Washougal national. Windhams bars are over the front fender and he looks about a foot too tall to be on the bike. He was leaning forward over the front fender like a ski jumper just to get down the straights. It was a miracle win. He got to the 4-stoke asap and he knew he had to, to stay competitive. It helped until everyone esle got a big thumper also.

The short guys have such an advantage on the start, at most of the races they are at the front and it has to change. Charmichael's 24-moto win steak, was due to hotshots and acceleration, both are due to his combined bike and rider weight being way low. Stewarts streak was due to his outright speed but, both Sewart and Charmichael are short small guys that always start at the front, even if they gate badly, there is no bigger advantage.

The acceleration of the bike with its rider has to be the same for everyone, no matter what the riders body weight!

I want to see the big guys fit their bikes and have the same acceleration and chance to get the hole shot, and just be able to pin it and hang on like the little guys do, and not have to fight the weight transfer from corner to corner and everywhere else.

I have been thinking that we need a second set of bike rules for the larger riders. How about a bike that the little guys are too small to ride well with 23" front wheel and 21" rear. Those larger wheels would lift the bike 1" and necessitate raising the suspension above the wheels another 1". It would also create more mass by increasing the weight of the wheels and that would have to be overcome by the riders strength. Still, how would we prevent the "Charmichael mods" of shrinking the sub frame, lowering the travel and still winning just because he's weighs 100#'s less? We have to have some kind of bike + rider combined wight minimum just like in every other form of motor sport.

So what do you guys think will work and even the field, more displacement, larger wheels, what do the big guys need to be able to have the same speed?

redalert144 wrote:

there should def. be a min rider+bike wieght. the IRL had these same issues with Danica Patrick being so small

motoxhead wrote:

So what they should add 20 pounds to a riders bike that weighs 150 to make it the same as a rider who weighs 170. Sounds...

So what they should add 20 pounds to a riders bike that weighs 150 to make it the same as a rider who weighs 170. Sounds like a great idea.

Please explain how this could work because a more level playing field isn't a bad thing in my opinion.

ridge wrote:

I'm a short guy (5'7") and also an ex-pro. I wish I was tall.

CamP knows what's up.

751 wrote:

I will join ya, let me grab the cooler!!!

Yaya wrote:

Just tapped a keg, wanna join haha

751 wrote:

Sure, Whos gonna call for the beer truck when we are out? Then the popcorn truck? Then we will need a new microwave by then lol...

Sure, Whos gonna call for the beer truck when we are out? Then the popcorn truck? Then we will need a new microwave by then lol! hahahaha!!!

FIREfish148 wrote:

So are you saying midgets are less prone to getting injured than i am? Is that what your trying to say?

redalert144 wrote:

less leverage means less force

Moto112 wrote:

yep.

"Ridge" why would you want to be tall?

So you could get bad starts and fight your bike and loose worse?

Moto112 wrote:

yep.

"Ridge" why would you want to be tall?

So you could get bad starts and fight your bike and loose worse?

redalert144 wrote:

there should def. be a min rider+bike wieght. the IRL had these same issues with Danica Patrick being so small

motoxhead wrote:

So what they should add 20 pounds to a riders bike that weighs 150 to make it the same as a rider who weighs 170. Sounds...

So what they should add 20 pounds to a riders bike that weighs 150 to make it the same as a rider who weighs 170. Sounds like a great idea.

Please explain how this could work because a more level playing field isn't a bad thing in my opinion.

redalert144 wrote:

well in essence, the smaller rider teams still have an advantage because they would be able to put the weight where ever they want, but it...

well in essence, the smaller rider teams still have an advantage because they would be able to put the weight where ever they want, but it would level power to weight ratio

Moto112 wrote:

CamP what do you weigh?

Moto112 wrote:

yep.

"Ridge" why would you want to be tall?

So you could get bad starts and fight your bike and loose worse?

Yaya wrote:

Im gonna call my good friend Clark W. Griswold and tell him to fill the family truckster up with some brews for everybody hahaha! Too much...

Im gonna call my good friend Clark W. Griswold and tell him to fill the family truckster up with some brews for everybody hahaha! Too much eggnog can ya tell!

Moto112 wrote:

yep.

"Ridge" why would you want to be tall?

So you could get bad starts and fight your bike and loose worse?

CamP wrote:

Good starts have more to do with technique than rider weight. I rode 125's up to the point that I was 6'-3" and 185lbs and I...

Good starts have more to do with technique than rider weight. I rode 125's up to the point that I was 6'-3" and 185lbs and I always got good starts, even against the little 135 pounders.

Moto112 wrote:

smaller is not weaker. its usually a lot stronger.

motoxhead wrote:

So what they should add 20 pounds to a riders bike that weighs 150 to make it the same as a rider who weighs 170. Sounds...

So what they should add 20 pounds to a riders bike that weighs 150 to make it the same as a rider who weighs 170. Sounds like a great idea.

Please explain how this could work because a more level playing field isn't a bad thing in my opinion.

redalert144 wrote:

well in essence, the smaller rider teams still have an advantage because they would be able to put the weight where ever they want, but it...

well in essence, the smaller rider teams still have an advantage because they would be able to put the weight where ever they want, but it would level power to weight ratio

motoxhead wrote:

I'm may be completely missing your point. But you are proposing that a smaller weaker rider have a heavier bike so that the stronger bigger guy...

I'm may be completely missing your point. But you are proposing that a smaller weaker rider have a heavier bike so that the stronger bigger guy can have the same power to weight ratio?

Moto112 wrote:

CamP at 205# 6'3" my heart is with you, man you are fighting the good fight, but, its a down hill battle. When you race guys...

CamP at 205# 6'3" my heart is with you, man you are fighting the good fight, but, its a down hill battle. When you race guys that are as good as you but, smaller they will clean the floor with you, you will never see them off the start. But, you know that, you have to if you are a nat'l pro.