Isle of Man TT

Alan Dove
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6/29/2023 8:50am
ripper69 wrote:
not comparable at all lol Of course kids get hurt racing moto but we do not have one single event that claims on average 2 lives...

not comparable at all lol Of course kids get hurt racing moto but we do not have one single event that claims on average 2 lives a year like Isle of man does. In moto if a track gets too dangerous, they prep the track, change the jump, etc. 

you are changing the argument to align with how you feel lol

No, it really is comparable and absolutely relevant. You have an acceptable level of risk that you deem morally fine, and the TT is outside this. Yet someone who has a different moral measurement than you (most people) can deem the number of children who are seriously injured (or worse) per year is far above what is acceptable. It's not jsut children either, but it's to highlight a point. No child has ever been seriously injured riding a TT, but can we say the same about dirtbikes? No.

Also, the TT doesn't kill people necessarily. These are high-risk individuals. If it's not the TT it'll be something else. So really what you are describing is the Availability Bias. It's not a moral statement about life loss, this anti-TT position is more one of "I don't care really, I just don't want to hear about it or see it". That's to say if these individuals die elsewhere it's out-of-sight-out-of-mind. There's no morality here.

So there really is no moral consistency from anyone, especially in the dirtbike world, to take a position against the TT. Any dirtbiker is in the top 1% of risk takers on the planet. The amount of injuries and deaths in bike racign is way above 99% of other sport. You have zero moral high ground.

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ripper69
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6/29/2023 8:54am
ripper69 wrote:
not comparable at all lol Of course kids get hurt racing moto but we do not have one single event that claims on average 2 lives...

not comparable at all lol Of course kids get hurt racing moto but we do not have one single event that claims on average 2 lives a year like Isle of man does. In moto if a track gets too dangerous, they prep the track, change the jump, etc. 

you are changing the argument to align with how you feel lol

Alan Dove wrote:
No, it really is comparable and absolutely relevant. You have an acceptable level of risk that you deem morally fine, and the TT is outside this...

No, it really is comparable and absolutely relevant. You have an acceptable level of risk that you deem morally fine, and the TT is outside this. Yet someone who has a different moral measurement than you (most people) can deem the number of children who are seriously injured (or worse) per year is far above what is acceptable. It's not jsut children either, but it's to highlight a point. No child has ever been seriously injured riding a TT, but can we say the same about dirtbikes? No.

Also, the TT doesn't kill people necessarily. These are high-risk individuals. If it's not the TT it'll be something else. So really what you are describing is the Availability Bias. It's not a moral statement about life loss, this anti-TT position is more one of "I don't care really, I just don't want to hear about it or see it". That's to say if these individuals die elsewhere it's out-of-sight-out-of-mind. There's no morality here.

So there really is no moral consistency from anyone, especially in the dirtbike world, to take a position against the TT. Any dirtbiker is in the top 1% of risk takers on the planet. The amount of injuries and deaths in bike racign is way above 99% of other sport. You have zero moral high ground.

so you are saying there is not a correlation between the riders dying at Isle of man but not at other events that they all race? I am not saying cancel the race, I watch it and look forward to it but I am acknowledging why some might not be a fan of it.

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McG194
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6/29/2023 8:56am

Definitely wild. Cant get behind it though, I feel a moral dilemma with that event.

JazzyJJ wrote:

Really sucks seeing people live out their dreams and do what makes them happy /s

That's not the problem

People are clueless. 

I totally understand your moral dilemma. I think back to some of the wilder Red Bull New Years No Limits events like when Maddow jumped on the Arc de Triumph replica in Vega$. Sure you want to see it but a little part of you is wondering if you are like the spectators at the Coliseum watching the gladiators being fed to the lions. Even though the guys who race the TT would do it with zero spectators you don't want to be a part of someone getting killed. Most years someone loses their life at the TT so the conflict is "I can't wait to see the TT." "I can't wait to see an event where someone will lose their life." 

 

It is everyone's choice to race there or not, and I don't want to see it banned but I do hate watching when someone dies, hence the conflict. 

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ripper69
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6/29/2023 8:56am
ripper69 wrote:
not comparable at all lol Of course kids get hurt racing moto but we do not have one single event that claims on average 2 lives...

not comparable at all lol Of course kids get hurt racing moto but we do not have one single event that claims on average 2 lives a year like Isle of man does. In moto if a track gets too dangerous, they prep the track, change the jump, etc. 

you are changing the argument to align with how you feel lol

Alan Dove wrote:
No, it really is comparable and absolutely relevant. You have an acceptable level of risk that you deem morally fine, and the TT is outside this...

No, it really is comparable and absolutely relevant. You have an acceptable level of risk that you deem morally fine, and the TT is outside this. Yet someone who has a different moral measurement than you (most people) can deem the number of children who are seriously injured (or worse) per year is far above what is acceptable. It's not jsut children either, but it's to highlight a point. No child has ever been seriously injured riding a TT, but can we say the same about dirtbikes? No.

Also, the TT doesn't kill people necessarily. These are high-risk individuals. If it's not the TT it'll be something else. So really what you are describing is the Availability Bias. It's not a moral statement about life loss, this anti-TT position is more one of "I don't care really, I just don't want to hear about it or see it". That's to say if these individuals die elsewhere it's out-of-sight-out-of-mind. There's no morality here.

So there really is no moral consistency from anyone, especially in the dirtbike world, to take a position against the TT. Any dirtbiker is in the top 1% of risk takers on the planet. The amount of injuries and deaths in bike racign is way above 99% of other sport. You have zero moral high ground.

Zero moral high ground on something that is statistically more dangerous and is statistically the most dangerous motorsport event? yeah that makes perfect sense! See you at the next mensa meeting genius 

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The Shop

Alan Dove
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6/29/2023 9:05am
ripper69 wrote:
Zero moral high ground on something that is statistically more dangerous and is statistically the most dangerous motorsport event? yeah that makes perfect sense! See you...

Zero moral high ground on something that is statistically more dangerous and is statistically the most dangerous motorsport event? yeah that makes perfect sense! See you at the next mensa meeting genius 

How many children have been seriously injured riding in the TT?  Zero
How many children have been seriously injured racing a dirt bike? .....

Dirt bikes are incredibly dangerous. It's a bias where people think their risk level is normal and acceptable. For most people, and I mean like 99.99% dirt bikes represents an unacceptable risk. For a lower, but not insignificant number, it represents a morally questionable level of risk.

Remove the TT and dirtbikes suddenly becomes the #1 (or close) dangerous form of motorbikes. Then what? How can you then defend dirt bikes?  Simply put, you can't.

the TT is a wall that basically protects the rest of motorsport from looking sketch af. 

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ripper69
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6/29/2023 9:11am Edited Date/Time 6/29/2023 9:13am
ripper69 wrote:
Zero moral high ground on something that is statistically more dangerous and is statistically the most dangerous motorsport event? yeah that makes perfect sense! See you...

Zero moral high ground on something that is statistically more dangerous and is statistically the most dangerous motorsport event? yeah that makes perfect sense! See you at the next mensa meeting genius 

Alan Dove wrote:
How many children have been seriously injured riding in the TT?  Zero How many children have been seriously injured racing a dirt bike? ..... Dirt bikes...

How many children have been seriously injured riding in the TT?  Zero
How many children have been seriously injured racing a dirt bike? .....

Dirt bikes are incredibly dangerous. It's a bias where people think their risk level is normal and acceptable. For most people, and I mean like 99.99% dirt bikes represents an unacceptable risk. For a lower, but not insignificant number, it represents a morally questionable level of risk.

Remove the TT and dirtbikes suddenly becomes the #1 (or close) dangerous form of motorbikes. Then what? How can you then defend dirt bikes?  Simply put, you can't.

the TT is a wall that basically protects the rest of motorsport from looking sketch af. 

well thats because children cant race tt lol 

not to mention you are making a new argument in an attempt to be correct. Not one person has claimed dirt bikes are safe so get your panties out of a bunch dip shit. 

The statement is, TT is dangerous, people die racing it each year. Some people dont want to watch for that reason. Some people still watch. both are okay decisions. 

Read, comprehend, then reply accordingly, but only if you can complete step 1 and 2 correctly.

2
Alan Dove
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6/29/2023 10:45am
ripper69 wrote:
Zero moral high ground on something that is statistically more dangerous and is statistically the most dangerous motorsport event? yeah that makes perfect sense! See you...

Zero moral high ground on something that is statistically more dangerous and is statistically the most dangerous motorsport event? yeah that makes perfect sense! See you at the next mensa meeting genius 

Alan Dove wrote:
How many children have been seriously injured riding in the TT?  Zero How many children have been seriously injured racing a dirt bike? ..... Dirt bikes...

How many children have been seriously injured riding in the TT?  Zero
How many children have been seriously injured racing a dirt bike? .....

Dirt bikes are incredibly dangerous. It's a bias where people think their risk level is normal and acceptable. For most people, and I mean like 99.99% dirt bikes represents an unacceptable risk. For a lower, but not insignificant number, it represents a morally questionable level of risk.

Remove the TT and dirtbikes suddenly becomes the #1 (or close) dangerous form of motorbikes. Then what? How can you then defend dirt bikes?  Simply put, you can't.

the TT is a wall that basically protects the rest of motorsport from looking sketch af. 

ripper69 wrote:
well thats because children cant race tt lol  not to mention you are making a new argument in an attempt to be correct. Not one person...

well thats because children cant race tt lol 

not to mention you are making a new argument in an attempt to be correct. Not one person has claimed dirt bikes are safe so get your panties out of a bunch dip shit. 

The statement is, TT is dangerous, people die racing it each year. Some people dont want to watch for that reason. Some people still watch. both are okay decisions. 

Read, comprehend, then reply accordingly, but only if you can complete step 1 and 2 correctly.

No. The accusation was it's morally questionable and that's partly due to the Isle of Man's economic incentive to run the event. Please don't accuse me of not comprehended. it's here in black and white:

flyliketrains posted

" I feel a moral dilemma with that event."

"Where it gets murky is the money being made off of it to feed their economy. Promoting a race that on average usually has 2 deaths in a 2 week span while the government reaps the benefits just doesnt sit right with me. Sure their are fans that love it for the pure ability these guys have to ride the razors edge but there are just as many people who watch just to see the carnage"

So I am not making a 'new argument'. I am stating that the 'moral dilemma' applies to dirt bikes jsut as much as the TT, if not more so because dirt bikes allow children to race. 

 

ripper69
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6/29/2023 10:50am
Alan Dove wrote:
How many children have been seriously injured riding in the TT?  Zero How many children have been seriously injured racing a dirt bike? ..... Dirt bikes...

How many children have been seriously injured riding in the TT?  Zero
How many children have been seriously injured racing a dirt bike? .....

Dirt bikes are incredibly dangerous. It's a bias where people think their risk level is normal and acceptable. For most people, and I mean like 99.99% dirt bikes represents an unacceptable risk. For a lower, but not insignificant number, it represents a morally questionable level of risk.

Remove the TT and dirtbikes suddenly becomes the #1 (or close) dangerous form of motorbikes. Then what? How can you then defend dirt bikes?  Simply put, you can't.

the TT is a wall that basically protects the rest of motorsport from looking sketch af. 

ripper69 wrote:
well thats because children cant race tt lol  not to mention you are making a new argument in an attempt to be correct. Not one person...

well thats because children cant race tt lol 

not to mention you are making a new argument in an attempt to be correct. Not one person has claimed dirt bikes are safe so get your panties out of a bunch dip shit. 

The statement is, TT is dangerous, people die racing it each year. Some people dont want to watch for that reason. Some people still watch. both are okay decisions. 

Read, comprehend, then reply accordingly, but only if you can complete step 1 and 2 correctly.

Alan Dove wrote:
No. The accusation was it's morally questionable and that's partly due to the Isle of Man's economic incentive to run the event. Please don't accuse me...

No. The accusation was it's morally questionable and that's partly due to the Isle of Man's economic incentive to run the event. Please don't accuse me of not comprehended. it's here in black and white:

flyliketrains posted

" I feel a moral dilemma with that event."

"Where it gets murky is the money being made off of it to feed their economy. Promoting a race that on average usually has 2 deaths in a 2 week span while the government reaps the benefits just doesnt sit right with me. Sure their are fans that love it for the pure ability these guys have to ride the razors edge but there are just as many people who watch just to see the carnage"

So I am not making a 'new argument'. I am stating that the 'moral dilemma' applies to dirt bikes jsut as much as the TT, if not more so because dirt bikes allow children to race. 

 

I am amazed you have this big of an issue with someone saying "I feel". 

Its referred to as the most dangerous race in the world for a reason. 

I will type it out and you can copy and paste it since you dont have the ability to do it so yourself. 

I, Alan Dove, misunderstood the argument and was indeed wrong as someone is allowed to have their own opinion of the event and the morals of it. I, Alan Dove, will step down from my high horse. 

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6/29/2023 12:16pm

"If you think its too dangerous, go home and cut your lawn and leave us to it" - Guy Martin.

Screen Shot 2023-06-01 at 11.27.35

 ^ Guy crashed at 180mph in the 2010 senior TT, he recovered and returned to the TT the following year. 

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McG194
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6/30/2023 7:48am

My biggest question about that race is how often those guys are truly going 10/10ths speed. As in do they back it down to 8.5/10ths flying between pubs and then open it up at a safer area. 

If a guy like Marquez rode at the level he rides at his life expectancy could be measured with a stopwatch. There's no levering the bike up with your elbow on that course. 

 

There are a lot of old TT racers and there are a lot of bold TT racers but there aren't a lot of old bold TT racers. 

1
McG194
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6/30/2023 8:21am Edited Date/Time 6/30/2023 9:01am

Definitely wild. Cant get behind it though, I feel a moral dilemma with that event.

My moral dilemma is deciding whether to tell you to fuck off or not.  I cannot stand meddling assholes that can't stop themselves from imposing their...

My moral dilemma is deciding whether to tell you to fuck off or not.  I cannot stand meddling assholes that can't stop themselves from imposing their will and beliefs on other people (especially those in positions of power or authority).  I sincerely hope you're not one of those people.....

 

Oh, and the TT is awesome.  The absolute pinnacle of road racing (along with MotoGP, although they're different animals completely).

A. You sound like an angry person, calling someone a "meddling asshole" just because he has reservations about a race. You may want to talk to someone about your issues. 

 

B. You are completely out in left field if you think the TT is the pinnacle of road racing. These guys are brave and give er hell but none of them could qualify for MotoGP let alone WSBK. 

 

Edit: The last TT racer to make any noise on the world stage was WSBK champion Carl Fogarty and he last won a championship 24 years ago. 

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1
6/30/2023 8:48am
McG194 wrote:
My biggest question about that race is how often those guys are truly going 10/10ths speed. As in do they back it down to 8.5/10ths flying...

My biggest question about that race is how often those guys are truly going 10/10ths speed. As in do they back it down to 8.5/10ths flying between pubs and then open it up at a safer area. 

If a guy like Marquez rode at the level he rides at his life expectancy could be measured with a stopwatch. There's no levering the bike up with your elbow on that course. 

 

There are a lot of old TT racers and there are a lot of bold TT racers but there aren't a lot of old bold TT racers. 

Did you watch any of the TT this year? Hickman, Dunlop and Harrison were absolutely balls to the wall. When the competition is that good its flatout from start to finish. 

McG194
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6/30/2023 8:58am
McG194 wrote:
My biggest question about that race is how often those guys are truly going 10/10ths speed. As in do they back it down to 8.5/10ths flying...

My biggest question about that race is how often those guys are truly going 10/10ths speed. As in do they back it down to 8.5/10ths flying between pubs and then open it up at a safer area. 

If a guy like Marquez rode at the level he rides at his life expectancy could be measured with a stopwatch. There's no levering the bike up with your elbow on that course. 

 

There are a lot of old TT racers and there are a lot of bold TT racers but there aren't a lot of old bold TT racers. 

Did you watch any of the TT this year? Hickman, Dunlop and Harrison were absolutely balls to the wall. When the competition is that good its...

Did you watch any of the TT this year? Hickman, Dunlop and Harrison were absolutely balls to the wall. When the competition is that good its flatout from start to finish. 

It's not possible, they may look balls to the wall and at some places they are going as fast as a motorcycle can be raced but there is a reason that the guys who are at the tip of the spear fought for run off and other safety measures. There are too many places where a mistake is a fatality to run 10/10ths. I'm not disparaging them at all because their 8/10ths is my 15/10ths. 

6/30/2023 9:08am
McG194 wrote:
It's not possible, they may look balls to the wall and at some places they are going as fast as a motorcycle can be raced but...

It's not possible, they may look balls to the wall and at some places they are going as fast as a motorcycle can be raced but there is a reason that the guys who are at the tip of the spear fought for run off and other safety measures. There are too many places where a mistake is a fatality to run 10/10ths. I'm not disparaging them at all because their 8/10ths is my 15/10ths. 

Just like Jeffrey Herlings and Eli Tomac do in motocross, the elite of the TT do things that us mere mortals can't comprehend. They know absolutely every dip, rise and bump and have spun thousands of miles around the place, why wouldn't they be going flatout? 

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McG194
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6/30/2023 11:07am Edited Date/Time 6/30/2023 11:08am
McG194 wrote:
It's not possible, they may look balls to the wall and at some places they are going as fast as a motorcycle can be raced but...

It's not possible, they may look balls to the wall and at some places they are going as fast as a motorcycle can be raced but there is a reason that the guys who are at the tip of the spear fought for run off and other safety measures. There are too many places where a mistake is a fatality to run 10/10ths. I'm not disparaging them at all because their 8/10ths is my 15/10ths. 

Just like Jeffrey Herlings and Eli Tomac do in motocross, the elite of the TT do things that us mere mortals can't comprehend. They know absolutely...

Just like Jeffrey Herlings and Eli Tomac do in motocross, the elite of the TT do things that us mere mortals can't comprehend. They know absolutely every dip, rise and bump and have spun thousands of miles around the place, why wouldn't they be going flatout? 

You just answered your question in asking it. There are bumps, dips and rises that have to be taken into account. The one I mentioned was Marquez and he'll get his elbow down and lever himself off the pavement when he loses the front end. You can't do that on a course like IOM. If you want the comparison Eli and Herlings aren't good examples, TT to roadrace is like Hare Scrambles to Moto or Supercross. The course dictates that you cannot run 10/10ths. 

 

Note: In no way, shape or form am I not saying those guys are badasses because they are. 

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7/2/2023 10:26pm Edited Date/Time 7/2/2023 10:35pm

Definitely wild. Cant get behind it though, I feel a moral dilemma with that event.

My moral dilemma is deciding whether to tell you to fuck off or not.  I cannot stand meddling assholes that can't stop themselves from imposing their...

My moral dilemma is deciding whether to tell you to fuck off or not.  I cannot stand meddling assholes that can't stop themselves from imposing their will and beliefs on other people (especially those in positions of power or authority).  I sincerely hope you're not one of those people.....

 

Oh, and the TT is awesome.  The absolute pinnacle of road racing (along with MotoGP, although they're different animals completely).

McG194 wrote:
A. You sound like an angry person, calling someone a "meddling asshole" just because he has reservations about a race. You may want to talk to...

A. You sound like an angry person, calling someone a "meddling asshole" just because he has reservations about a race. You may want to talk to someone about your issues. 

 

B. You are completely out in left field if you think the TT is the pinnacle of road racing. These guys are brave and give er hell but none of them could qualify for MotoGP let alone WSBK. 

 

Edit: The last TT racer to make any noise on the world stage was WSBK champion Carl Fogarty and he last won a championship 24 years ago. 


, Peter Hickman wins British super bike races as well , 

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McG194
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7/3/2023 5:02am
My moral dilemma is deciding whether to tell you to fuck off or not.  I cannot stand meddling assholes that can't stop themselves from imposing their...

My moral dilemma is deciding whether to tell you to fuck off or not.  I cannot stand meddling assholes that can't stop themselves from imposing their will and beliefs on other people (especially those in positions of power or authority).  I sincerely hope you're not one of those people.....

 

Oh, and the TT is awesome.  The absolute pinnacle of road racing (along with MotoGP, although they're different animals completely).

McG194 wrote:
A. You sound like an angry person, calling someone a "meddling asshole" just because he has reservations about a race. You may want to talk to...

A. You sound like an angry person, calling someone a "meddling asshole" just because he has reservations about a race. You may want to talk to someone about your issues. 

 

B. You are completely out in left field if you think the TT is the pinnacle of road racing. These guys are brave and give er hell but none of them could qualify for MotoGP let alone WSBK. 

 

Edit: The last TT racer to make any noise on the world stage was WSBK champion Carl Fogarty and he last won a championship 24 years ago. 

scott_nz wrote:


, Peter Hickman wins British super bike races as well , 

You guys keep driving my point home. The British series is a very solid national series but probably not as good as the Spanish series and nowhere near WSBK or MotoGP. Hickman is an amazing racer and maybe the best real road racer currently but nowhere near the tip of the spear. 

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7/3/2023 9:49am
McG194 wrote:
A. You sound like an angry person, calling someone a "meddling asshole" just because he has reservations about a race. You may want to talk to...

A. You sound like an angry person, calling someone a "meddling asshole" just because he has reservations about a race. You may want to talk to someone about your issues. 

 

B. You are completely out in left field if you think the TT is the pinnacle of road racing. These guys are brave and give er hell but none of them could qualify for MotoGP let alone WSBK. 

 

Edit: The last TT racer to make any noise on the world stage was WSBK champion Carl Fogarty and he last won a championship 24 years ago. 

scott_nz wrote:


, Peter Hickman wins British super bike races as well , 

McG194 wrote:
You guys keep driving my point home. The British series is a very solid national series but probably not as good as the Spanish series and...

You guys keep driving my point home. The British series is a very solid national series but probably not as good as the Spanish series and nowhere near WSBK or MotoGP. Hickman is an amazing racer and maybe the best real road racer currently but nowhere near the tip of the spear. 

The British series is the 2nd best superbike series behind wsb by a long way 

 

it’s not gp bike racing , which the Spanish moto 3 series leads 

 

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Spoonguy
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10/25/2023 4:26am

The moral high ground is an easy place to be. Of course it is easy to state "I would never support an event that risks people's death", but of course, as always, it is much more complicated than that. For 99% of human existence, life was cheap, wars were won with numbers of men used as cannon fodder, crime punishment was through public torture, slavery was international, rampant and expected, infanticide in some cultures was a way of life, starvation of others was expected, extermination of entire races was promoted, the world was often full of atrocities humans committed to other humans. But now we coin ourselves as civilized, yet our most popular movies, tv shows, and video games simulate, exploit, and glamorize death and mutilation, our most popular sports simulate violence as well. Are we so much better now because we watch pretend choreographed atrocities, or is it something built into us that needs to see these things?

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