Fines for Takeouts

sc961
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Hutchinson, MN US
5/9/2017 3:26pm
The racing was awesome.
The fans all won, getting to watch that exciting, down to the wire bar banging.
To have a valid opinion, we'd all need a firm grasp on the AMA Pro racing rule book. Wonder how many have that?
Easy to doubt and critique when you're not accountable..
Zach and Ryan are champs. Congrats boys, you both earned it.
NorcalVet
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Nor-cal, CA US
5/9/2017 3:30pm
All this talk about takeout....

Is making me want to order a pizza and then take a nap Whistling
KennyT
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Vista, CA US
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5/9/2017 3:50pm
I always thought it is best to let the riders police themselves on aggressive riding. Normally I would say Savatgy owes Osborne one but in this circumstance Zach was steamrolling and Joey was putting down a anchor....he had nowhere to go but thru Joey

Now the Tomac deal. What he pulled was beyond a finable offense. I've been watching SX since 1972 and I don't ever recall seeing the leader of a race intentionally slow down to take a shot at the rider coming up from behind. To do that 3 times was unbelievable. His actions should have drawn a suspension. If this was Alessi pulling that crap u guys would hang him from a tree
MX4EVR
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Canton, OH US
5/9/2017 3:51pm
The racing was awesome!......
Get the sand out of your snatch....
He was going for a championship.........
Rubbins racin.........


If Osborne or anyone else takes someone out like that and blows someone's knee out
Brakes there leg or anything to put them on the sidelines for a few months then they would make a change for sure
It's fun and games but there's a limit

The Shop

Silliker269
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Calgary CA
5/9/2017 3:55pm
It's turning into a roller dirby....

Paw Paw
Same as it always has been .. why change now ?
5/9/2017 4:14pm
TeamGreen wrote:
There's a survey at Racer X: the results on the ZachO question make me feel embarrassed for people that call themselves "Fans".
TripleFive wrote:
There was a dude on here who literally said that the Las Vegas 450 main was "the worst race [he's] ever seen."

named John Tomac?
bvm111
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5/9/2017 4:15pm
TeamGreen wrote:
There's a survey at Racer X: the results on the ZachO question make me feel embarrassed for people that call themselves "Fans".
I said the same thing when I saw that!
wreckitrandy
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Granite Falls, NC US
5/9/2017 4:20pm
Will the ama or,,, somebody,,, put out a statement explaining the circumstances surrounding the decision to fine Zach? Are they waiting on an appeal and some sort of hearing? Will SX turn into soccer with a bunch of pansies that roll around on the ground in hopes of getting someone red carded? Someone compared the racing Saturday to the WWE. I totally disagree. Great racing. But the officiating is Survivor tribal council if they fined ZO.
5/9/2017 4:50pm
sc961 wrote:
The racing was awesome. The fans all won, getting to watch that exciting, down to the wire bar banging. To have a valid opinion, we'd all...
The racing was awesome.
The fans all won, getting to watch that exciting, down to the wire bar banging.
To have a valid opinion, we'd all need a firm grasp on the AMA Pro racing rule book. Wonder how many have that?
Easy to doubt and critique when you're not accountable..
Zach and Ryan are champs. Congrats boys, you both earned it.
Maybe we would understand the rules better, if the AMA issued some type of public statement explaining and justifying their actions.

Instead, we have secret penalties that it sounds like Zach isn't even allowed to talk about.
goinrcn44h
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Sedro Woolley, WA US
5/9/2017 4:52pm Edited Date/Time 5/9/2017 4:54pm
I admit I'm old and crotchety and fat and slow and all that now, however i raced professionally in the 80s and 90s and if you guys are bothered or offended by what these guys are doing racing their asses off you wouldn't have lasted a practice session back then.
I know things change and they evolve and all that, but motocross is motocross, it should never be policed by an outside force, especially by one that has never raced before. If you've never done it you will never understand it.
I say make a guy like Larocco your referee. You clean a guy out just know you have one coming someday, only time a ref should be involved is for some dipshit cutting the track or blatantly trying to cut a guy in half, the rest WILL be resolved eventually.
Outdoors somewhere along the lines you will see zach on the dirt and a kawi riding off, maybe at the end of the year when a championship could be on the line, that is what will deter it from getting out of hand. You can not control everything and maintain the integrity of this crazy sport, you can try and you will fail, nascar is trying and guess what, they are failing.. miserably i might add. Dont travel that path
Mr. Info
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Perris, CA US
5/9/2017 4:55pm
Ok I talked to John and he said I can issue the fine for him. Here it is. I am fine with the takeout.
Katoomey
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WY US
5/9/2017 5:17pm
sc961 wrote:
The racing was awesome. The fans all won, getting to watch that exciting, down to the wire bar banging. To have a valid opinion, we'd all...
The racing was awesome.
The fans all won, getting to watch that exciting, down to the wire bar banging.
To have a valid opinion, we'd all need a firm grasp on the AMA Pro racing rule book. Wonder how many have that?
Easy to doubt and critique when you're not accountable..
Zach and Ryan are champs. Congrats boys, you both earned it.
well, really, you've uncovered the heart of the matter. believe it or not, but alot of us around here have a firm grasp on the rules.. anyone can go read them. and a lot of us have been reading that rule book for 20 years, so...

AMA motocross has one of the smallest rules and regs book of any motorsport I've ever been a part of. Comprehending the rules isn't the problem. the problem is the absolute lack of rules, and the the rules that exist are not clearly defined. in fact, there is almost nothing relating to these issues outside of "overly" aggressive riding. Well who the fuck is deciding what is "overly"?

I guess thats where the problem lies. we've left it to the discretion of one man. in some walks of life, thats called a dictatorship. Have the words dictator and fair & balanced ever been in the same sentence together?

regardless of how fair John Gallagher wants or tries to be, he's just one man, one perspective, one ect...there are no guarantees without some sort of checks and balances.
wreckitrandy
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5/9/2017 5:17pm
Mr. Info wrote:
Ok I talked to John and he said I can issue the fine for him. Here it is. I am fine with the takeout.
Golf clap!!
TXDirt
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Plano, TX US
5/9/2017 5:54pm
sc961 wrote:
The racing was awesome. The fans all won, getting to watch that exciting, down to the wire bar banging. To have a valid opinion, we'd all...
The racing was awesome.
The fans all won, getting to watch that exciting, down to the wire bar banging.
To have a valid opinion, we'd all need a firm grasp on the AMA Pro racing rule book. Wonder how many have that?
Easy to doubt and critique when you're not accountable..
Zach and Ryan are champs. Congrats boys, you both earned it.
Katoomey wrote:
well, really, you've uncovered the heart of the matter. believe it or not, but alot of us around here have a firm grasp on the rules...
well, really, you've uncovered the heart of the matter. believe it or not, but alot of us around here have a firm grasp on the rules.. anyone can go read them. and a lot of us have been reading that rule book for 20 years, so...

AMA motocross has one of the smallest rules and regs book of any motorsport I've ever been a part of. Comprehending the rules isn't the problem. the problem is the absolute lack of rules, and the the rules that exist are not clearly defined. in fact, there is almost nothing relating to these issues outside of "overly" aggressive riding. Well who the fuck is deciding what is "overly"?

I guess thats where the problem lies. we've left it to the discretion of one man. in some walks of life, thats called a dictatorship. Have the words dictator and fair & balanced ever been in the same sentence together?

regardless of how fair John Gallagher wants or tries to be, he's just one man, one perspective, one ect...there are no guarantees without some sort of checks and balances.
My best guess is John fined him because of a stink Kawi/PC made. The big brands rule the sport. He likely had to do something to try and keep the peace. Anyone who knows a thing about racing knows that the pass Zach made was 100% legit. That doesn't stop the brand or sponsor from complaining/crying. Throw on top Monster Energy and you got a real shit storm on your hands.

Like I said, everyone knows the pass/takeout was legit and not dirty. But that doesn't stop the crying from Kawi/PC/Monster etc.

So this fine is nothing more then a pity fine to appease the money changers. Er I mean manufacturers, Er I mean sponsors.

This sport doesn't need more rules, or some kind of committee to determine infractions. On the whole John does a good job between balancing the rules and ultimately the politics/money that actually govern the sport.

Hope that all made sense. I'm on my phone.
5/9/2017 6:13pm
Wait!

The AMA/Gallagher/FIM is being inconsistent?

When did this start?

The AMA will issue a statement as soon as the Japanese manufacturers approve it. Unless Harley stamps it first.
JustMX
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TN US
5/9/2017 6:28pm
I won't believe there was a fine until ama says there was.... it just doesn't make sense. What would be the point?

Why would they keep it secret?

Perhaps a donation to the medical unit was suggested, but a fine imposed.......

Bullshit

dkg
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA US
5/9/2017 8:38pm
TripleFive wrote:
As a governing body, the race officials must know that the penalties they administer have precedential value. Why was Zach Osborne fined for his takeout of...
As a governing body, the race officials must know that the penalties they administer have precedential value.

Why was Zach Osborne fined for his takeout of JS17, and not JA21 for his takeout on Chad Reed?

This is exactly why I believe each penalty deserves a written explanation, so we don't have perceived inconsistency. As it stands now, it seems like penalties are issued on a whim.
Agreed, if in fact there was a fine, it really sets a poor precedent. By issuing the fine and considering past penalties, it seems a take out either gets a fine or the black flag. Many riders would willingly take a fine to advance their position for the championship.

In Zach's case I view it just as hard racing. If according to the Race Director it is a violation of the rules, then issuing a fine only encourages future racers to engage in the same behavior.
ACBraap
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5/9/2017 8:55pm
Perhaps the fact that they had already handed out the number one plate after the race made JG opt for a fine to placate PC without affecting the championship. Which would be 100% wrong of course (if there was a problem with the pass... which in my opinion there wasn't).

If there was a fine to Osborne and not to Tomac or Anderson, then JG is once again a clueless, inconsistent, fool. timed mains were a good improvement for 2017. For 2018, more dirt, and better officiating.
GuyB
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Aliso Viejo, CA US
5/9/2017 9:09pm
TeamGreen wrote:
There's a survey at Racer X: the results on the ZachO question make me feel embarrassed for people that call themselves "Fans".
TripleFive wrote:
There was a dude on here who literally said that the Las Vegas 450 main was "the worst race [he's] ever seen."

Yet more proof that you can't make everyone happy.
Crush
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Sydney AU
5/9/2017 9:15pm
Easy solution.

Leave everything on the table, barring t-bones. That's reviewed AFTER the event to a 5 person panel, 3 members should be independant of anything, like David Bailey via tv link... and the penalty is DNQ for the next event if in the affirmative. But only AFTER the fucking event is this decision made.

Everything else, now the riders are self-officiating. The catch being that any deliberate contact, ie JG/Mookie, Zach/Savatgy, JA21/CR22, contact causing a crash, is a significant and non-negotiable financial hit, no matter what.

$50K hit for factory guys, 25K for second tier teams, 5k for privateers...

and 100% of that goes to the medic bus.

Done. No arguments. No silly last gate pick this week, 5 seconds that. Just done. Money to somewhere that desperately needs it, riders policing themselves and action on the track with no more pusshole arguments.
ACBraap
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5/9/2017 9:29pm
Crush wrote:
Easy solution. Leave everything on the table, barring t-bones. That's reviewed AFTER the event to a 5 person panel, 3 members should be independant of anything...
Easy solution.

Leave everything on the table, barring t-bones. That's reviewed AFTER the event to a 5 person panel, 3 members should be independant of anything, like David Bailey via tv link... and the penalty is DNQ for the next event if in the affirmative. But only AFTER the fucking event is this decision made.

Everything else, now the riders are self-officiating. The catch being that any deliberate contact, ie JG/Mookie, Zach/Savatgy, JA21/CR22, contact causing a crash, is a significant and non-negotiable financial hit, no matter what.

$50K hit for factory guys, 25K for second tier teams, 5k for privateers...

and 100% of that goes to the medic bus.

Done. No arguments. No silly last gate pick this week, 5 seconds that. Just done. Money to somewhere that desperately needs it, riders policing themselves and action on the track with no more pusshole arguments.
Some good ideas. That DNQ at the next event isn't a huge impediment at the last round though.

And really, the same penalty for Osborne, making a last lap, near last turn charge to the front vs JG in a pissed off moment in a heat race? Those are pretty distinctly different moves.
Katoomey
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5/9/2017 9:30pm Edited Date/Time 5/9/2017 9:34pm
TXDirt wrote:
My best guess is John fined him because of a stink Kawi/PC made. The big brands rule the sport. He likely had to do something to...
My best guess is John fined him because of a stink Kawi/PC made. The big brands rule the sport. He likely had to do something to try and keep the peace. Anyone who knows a thing about racing knows that the pass Zach made was 100% legit. That doesn't stop the brand or sponsor from complaining/crying. Throw on top Monster Energy and you got a real shit storm on your hands.

Like I said, everyone knows the pass/takeout was legit and not dirty. But that doesn't stop the crying from Kawi/PC/Monster etc.

So this fine is nothing more then a pity fine to appease the money changers. Er I mean manufacturers, Er I mean sponsors.

This sport doesn't need more rules, or some kind of committee to determine infractions. On the whole John does a good job between balancing the rules and ultimately the politics/money that actually govern the sport.

Hope that all made sense. I'm on my phone.
"hope that made sense"... in that you don't know if you made sense? or if I m capable of comprehending?

you say he does a good job. good. words. let me see if my bank will accept those as tender...

and "pity fines"?

so there you have it...participants with no integrity, an organizing body with no integrity, and a race director with no integrity. yeah...cool, everything's gravy baby.
Crush
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Sydney AU
5/9/2017 9:49pm Edited Date/Time 5/9/2017 9:51pm
ACBraap wrote:
Some good ideas. That DNQ at the next event isn't a huge impediment at the last round though. And really, the same penalty for Osborne, making...
Some good ideas. That DNQ at the next event isn't a huge impediment at the last round though.

And really, the same penalty for Osborne, making a last lap, near last turn charge to the front vs JG in a pissed off moment in a heat race? Those are pretty distinctly different moves.
That's the point.

We no longer have to decide anything other than deliberateness. Osborne meant contact. JG meant contact. Anderson meant contact. It's pretty easy to judge. In the last 10 years, maybe Canard on RV in 2008 might be grey, but he jumped in there, so deliberate.

The riders know the penalty ahead of time, it's consistent and on them. No arguments. No FIM/Gallagher specials. No situational reasoning, no retaliation, no he said, she said. No protests won by Roger but not Bruce. Nothing.

You make deliberate contact and the other guy goes down. Sweet, no dramas, just open your wallet and run the replay for tv highlights.

And the DNQ, Do not qualify at the next round, properly assessed, is the ONLY way to do it professionally, fairly, and the example set by every other professional non-janky motorsport in the world. SX is behind.
Jrewing
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AU
5/9/2017 9:49pm
TeamGreen wrote:
There's a survey at Racer X: the results on the ZachO question make me feel embarrassed for people that call themselves "Fans".
TripleFive wrote:
There was a dude on here who literally said that the Las Vegas 450 main was "the worst race [he's] ever seen."

I hope that dudes participation pin is pressed hard enough that it Steve Irwins him..
5/9/2017 9:54pm Edited Date/Time 5/9/2017 10:21pm
TeamGreen wrote:
There's a survey at Racer X: the results on the ZachO question make me feel embarrassed for people that call themselves "Fans".
TripleFive wrote:
There was a dude on here who literally said that the Las Vegas 450 main was "the worst race [he's] ever seen."

GuyB wrote:
Yet more proof that you can't make everyone happy.
I yelled so loud when Osborne made the pass that I woke up my wife and kids, they thought the house might have been on fire. Best end to a SX season that I can remember.
Eve MX 11
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Dundee, NY US
5/9/2017 9:55pm
Bullshit. But what'd you expect?
5/9/2017 10:28pm
They need to introduce pit to rider comms so we can have ride through penalties during the race, racings bad right?
oshow
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GA US
5/9/2017 10:45pm Edited Date/Time 5/9/2017 10:51pm
TripleFive wrote:
As a governing body, the race officials must know that the penalties they administer have precedential value. Why was Zach Osborne fined for his takeout of...
As a governing body, the race officials must know that the penalties they administer have precedential value.

Why was Zach Osborne fined for his takeout of JS17, and not JA21 for his takeout on Chad Reed?

This is exactly why I believe each penalty deserves a written explanation, so we don't have perceived inconsistency. As it stands now, it seems like penalties are issued on a whim.
Let me explain it.

It's racing ... for a championship. 16 should have never been close enough to touch 17.. he has a huge heart though and he did what he HAD to do to win the championship in the last turn. He won a Championship. Well earned

Chad should have protected himself. He better than anyone knows who he just passed... But Andersons move does need to be looked at.... It was borderline and last race so they looked the other way and moved on.. I mean the guy handing out discipline is a known joke anyway... And never consitant
oshow
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5/9/2017 10:53pm
JSmith wrote:
Gallagher has to go. Crazy times we are in right now.
Did Gallagher smile when Anderson took out Chad? Think about it..
oshow
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5/9/2017 10:55pm
So the rider who took out Osborne at the start should be fined!? Or is the fine about intention? I am not sure that Zach intended...
So the rider who took out Osborne at the start should be fined!?
Or is the fine about intention?
I am not sure that Zach intended to take out Savatgy?
LMAO

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