The IV issue

bigborefan
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8/3/2014 12:23pm
TripleFive wrote:
I didn't proclaim Adderall as a PED, the Chairman of WADA's Banned Substances Committee [url=http://seattletimes.com/html/seahawks/2019776708_adderall28.html]did[/url]. If you can find a source that says that Adderall is...
I didn't proclaim Adderall as a PED, the Chairman of WADA's Banned Substances Committee did.

If you can find a source that says that Adderall is not a PED could you please show me?

Is it just a coincidence that the day Stewart's IV nurse is prevented from entering the pits James fails to start the second moto because he was dizzy?
OK, let's frame the question differently. The issue at stake here is whether or not James was taking, what is assumed to be adderall, as a...
OK, let's frame the question differently. The issue at stake here is whether or not James was taking, what is assumed to be adderall, as a ped? There's no clear evidence that that's the case and used as a therapeutic drug for a condition, it would not be effective as a ped. You've assumed guilt before having all the facts before you just as you've assumed that Stewart was using iv's in between motos and that's why he dropped out of the second moto at Milleville.
Why are we assuming Adderall? Did Yosh Suzuki, WADA, or JSE claim it was Adderall? Where does the Adderall allegation come from?

All we know is "amphetamine", unless I am wrong and we now know 100% it was Adderall.
8/3/2014 12:28pm
bigborefan wrote:
Why are we assuming Adderall? Did Yosh Suzuki, WADA, or JSE claim it was Adderall? Where does the Adderall allegation come from? All we know is...
Why are we assuming Adderall? Did Yosh Suzuki, WADA, or JSE claim it was Adderall? Where does the Adderall allegation come from?

All we know is "amphetamine", unless I am wrong and we now know 100% it was Adderall.
OK. Assume it's an amphetamine and proceed.
bigborefan
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8/3/2014 12:33pm Edited Date/Time 8/3/2014 12:34pm
bigborefan wrote:
Why are we assuming Adderall? Did Yosh Suzuki, WADA, or JSE claim it was Adderall? Where does the Adderall allegation come from? All we know is...
Why are we assuming Adderall? Did Yosh Suzuki, WADA, or JSE claim it was Adderall? Where does the Adderall allegation come from?

All we know is "amphetamine", unless I am wrong and we now know 100% it was Adderall.
OK. Assume it's an amphetamine and proceed.
You have no hard evidence that the test showed Adderall, yet you seem to be under the impression it is Adderall? Why?

Or are we assuming Adderall just for arguments sake?
8/3/2014 12:36pm
bigborefan wrote:
Why are we assuming Adderall? Did Yosh Suzuki, WADA, or JSE claim it was Adderall? Where does the Adderall allegation come from? All we know is...
Why are we assuming Adderall? Did Yosh Suzuki, WADA, or JSE claim it was Adderall? Where does the Adderall allegation come from?

All we know is "amphetamine", unless I am wrong and we now know 100% it was Adderall.
OK. Assume it's an amphetamine and proceed.
bigborefan wrote:
You have no hard evidence that the test showed Adderall, yet you seem to be under the impression it is Adderall? Why? Or are we assuming...
You have no hard evidence that the test showed Adderall, yet you seem to be under the impression it is Adderall? Why?

Or are we assuming Adderall just for arguments sake?
I assumed that for arguments sake since that's what some have said it was.

The Shop

RedDirtDog
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8/3/2014 12:40pm
OK. Assume it's an amphetamine and proceed.
bigborefan wrote:
You have no hard evidence that the test showed Adderall, yet you seem to be under the impression it is Adderall? Why? Or are we assuming...
You have no hard evidence that the test showed Adderall, yet you seem to be under the impression it is Adderall? Why?

Or are we assuming Adderall just for arguments sake?
I assumed that for arguments sake since that's what some have said it was.
Isnt adderall the only perscription amphetamine?
bigborefan
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8/3/2014 12:41pm
So you're OK with the assumption that the failed test substance was Adderall. but not an assumption that James might have used an IV between motos?
8/3/2014 12:43pm
bigborefan wrote:
So you're OK with the assumption that the failed test substance was Adderall. but not an assumption that James might have used an IV between motos?
No, I'm not OK with that. That's why I corrected myself.
8/3/2014 12:44pm
bigborefan wrote:
You have no hard evidence that the test showed Adderall, yet you seem to be under the impression it is Adderall? Why? Or are we assuming...
You have no hard evidence that the test showed Adderall, yet you seem to be under the impression it is Adderall? Why?

Or are we assuming Adderall just for arguments sake?
I assumed that for arguments sake since that's what some have said it was.
RedDirtDog wrote:
Isnt adderall the only perscription amphetamine?
I'm not sure since I'm not a medical professional. I assumed it was adderall and had thought that Stewart had said as such. But I was mistaken on that.
bigborefan
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8/3/2014 12:51pm
MY point is that everyone is assuming Adderall, and that might be a very logical assumption to make. And even implicate order seems to have accepted that assumption.

It might also be a logical assumption, that if JSE had a nurse at the races, allegedly there to administer IVs, one might logically assume it might be for between motos?
RedDirtDog
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8/3/2014 12:52pm
Thats what I assumed when the PR said hes been using a common prescription medication since late 2012. I think its safe to say Adderall is the only 'common' prescription amphetamine.
8/3/2014 12:53pm
OK, let's frame the question differently. The issue at stake here is whether or not James was taking, what is assumed to be adderall, as a...
OK, let's frame the question differently. The issue at stake here is whether or not James was taking, what is assumed to be adderall, as a ped? There's no clear evidence that that's the case and used as a therapeutic drug for a condition, it would not be effective as a ped. You've assumed guilt before having all the facts before you just as you've assumed that Stewart was using iv's in between motos and that's why he dropped out of the second moto at Milleville.
Care to find me a source that states that Adderall is not a PED if taken for a therapeutic purpose?

I haven't gone out of my way to assume guilt. I have simply repeated the sentiment of Matthes and the crew on the BTO show. As I see it, these are the only people who have really reported on the issue.

All I have to from an opinion from is what has been reported. Your opinion is that the evidence doesn't point towards cheating at all. My opinion and the opinion of, from what I can gather all the media that has spoken on the issue is that the evidence is inculpatory. I'm not trying to bury the guy. All I am say is that, from my perspective, the evidence points towards cheating.
8/3/2014 12:55pm
bigborefan wrote:
MY point is that everyone is assuming Adderall, and that might be a very logical assumption to make. And even implicate order seems to have accepted...
MY point is that everyone is assuming Adderall, and that might be a very logical assumption to make. And even implicate order seems to have accepted that assumption.

It might also be a logical assumption, that if JSE had a nurse at the races, allegedly there to administer IVs, one might logically assume it might be for between motos?
Neither is a logical assumption, both are simply assumptions. Furthermore, just because one may be more reasonable to assume it doesn't follow that the other is as well.

8/3/2014 1:01pm Edited Date/Time 8/3/2014 1:05pm
OK, let's frame the question differently. The issue at stake here is whether or not James was taking, what is assumed to be adderall, as a...
OK, let's frame the question differently. The issue at stake here is whether or not James was taking, what is assumed to be adderall, as a ped? There's no clear evidence that that's the case and used as a therapeutic drug for a condition, it would not be effective as a ped. You've assumed guilt before having all the facts before you just as you've assumed that Stewart was using iv's in between motos and that's why he dropped out of the second moto at Milleville.
TripleFive wrote:
Care to find me a source that states that Adderall is not a PED if taken for a therapeutic purpose? I haven't gone out of my...
Care to find me a source that states that Adderall is not a PED if taken for a therapeutic purpose?

I haven't gone out of my way to assume guilt. I have simply repeated the sentiment of Matthes and the crew on the BTO show. As I see it, these are the only people who have really reported on the issue.

All I have to from an opinion from is what has been reported. Your opinion is that the evidence doesn't point towards cheating at all. My opinion and the opinion of, from what I can gather all the media that has spoken on the issue is that the evidence is inculpatory. I'm not trying to bury the guy. All I am say is that, from my perspective, the evidence points towards cheating.
There are plenty of sources. Look in any medical dictionary; adderall used for therapy isn't used as a ped and therefore is not a ped. It's as simple as that, and that is why the rules also state that if it is a medical prescription and the proper channels are followed, athletes can use adderall.

My opinion, contrary to what you are claiming, is that you don't have any evidence that Stewart was cheating. Don't confuse that with claiming that Stewart was not cheating. I don't have to make the stronger claim that Stewart was not cheating since that is not my burden of proof.

To reiterate, you have ZERO evidence that Stewart was cheating. You have some assumptions, mixed with incredulity and hearsay. But evidence? No way. If you had evidence, this wouldn't be up for discussion since the evidence would exonerate you from your assumptions.
bigborefan
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8/3/2014 1:05pm
There are plenty of sources. Look in any medical dictionary; adderall used for therapy isn't used as a ped and therefore is not a ped. It's...
There are plenty of sources. Look in any medical dictionary; adderall used for therapy isn't used as a ped and therefore is not a ped. It's as simple as that, and that is why the rules also state that if it is a medical prescription and the proper channels are followed, athletes can use adderall.

My opinion, contrary to what you are claiming, is that you don't have any evidence that Stewart was cheating. Don't confuse that with claiming that Stewart was not cheating. I don't have to make the stronger claim that Stewart was not cheating since that is not my burden of proof.

To reiterate, you have ZERO evidence that Stewart was cheating. You have some assumptions, mixed with incredulity and hearsay. But evidence? No way. If you had evidence, this wouldn't be up for discussion since the evidence would exonerate you from your assumptions.
You might be right, we have no evidence, but just maybe WADA and the FIM have it?
bigborefan
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8/3/2014 1:09pm
bigborefan wrote:
MY point is that everyone is assuming Adderall, and that might be a very logical assumption to make. And even implicate order seems to have accepted...
MY point is that everyone is assuming Adderall, and that might be a very logical assumption to make. And even implicate order seems to have accepted that assumption.

It might also be a logical assumption, that if JSE had a nurse at the races, allegedly there to administer IVs, one might logically assume it might be for between motos?
Neither is a [i]logical[/i] assumption, both are simply assumptions. Furthermore, just because one may be more reasonable to assume it doesn't follow that the other is...
Neither is a logical assumption, both are simply assumptions. Furthermore, just because one may be more reasonable to assume it doesn't follow that the other is as well.

If we are assuming that the amphetamine was from a common prescribed drug, and Adderall is the only drug that fits that description, I think it is logical to assume Adderall at that point.
8/3/2014 1:09pm
bigborefan wrote:
You might be right, we have no evidence, but just maybe WADA and the FIM have it?
They very well could.
bigborefan
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8/3/2014 1:11pm
What's worse implicate order, your blind obedience to JSE, or the other side being ready to condemn him?
8/3/2014 1:12pm
There are plenty of sources. Look in any medical dictionary; adderall used for therapy isn't used as a ped and therefore is not a ped. It's...
There are plenty of sources. Look in any medical dictionary; adderall used for therapy isn't used as a ped and therefore is not a ped. It's as simple as that, and that is why the rules also state that if it is a medical prescription and the proper channels are followed, athletes can use adderall.

My opinion, contrary to what you are claiming, is that you don't have any evidence that Stewart was cheating. Don't confuse that with claiming that Stewart was not cheating. I don't have to make the stronger claim that Stewart was not cheating since that is not my burden of proof.

To reiterate, you have ZERO evidence that Stewart was cheating. You have some assumptions, mixed with incredulity and hearsay. But evidence? No way. If you had evidence, this wouldn't be up for discussion since the evidence would exonerate you from your assumptions.
You're wrong about a few things in this post but I'm going to stop arguing with you because it's clear you have an agenda. From day 1 (which was last week) you have been arguing for James' innocence. I should have recognized that from the beginning.
8/3/2014 1:15pm
bigborefan wrote:
What's worse implicate order, your blind obedience to JSE, or the other side being ready to condemn him?
And this is where I stop the discussion with you. Thanks.
bigborefan
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8/3/2014 1:16pm
There are plenty of sources. Look in any medical dictionary; adderall used for therapy isn't used as a ped and therefore is not a ped. It's...
There are plenty of sources. Look in any medical dictionary; adderall used for therapy isn't used as a ped and therefore is not a ped. It's as simple as that, and that is why the rules also state that if it is a medical prescription and the proper channels are followed, athletes can use adderall.

My opinion, contrary to what you are claiming, is that you don't have any evidence that Stewart was cheating. Don't confuse that with claiming that Stewart was not cheating. I don't have to make the stronger claim that Stewart was not cheating since that is not my burden of proof.

To reiterate, you have ZERO evidence that Stewart was cheating. You have some assumptions, mixed with incredulity and hearsay. But evidence? No way. If you had evidence, this wouldn't be up for discussion since the evidence would exonerate you from your assumptions.
TripleFive wrote:
You're wrong about a few things in this post but I'm going to stop arguing with you because it's clear you have an agenda. From day...
You're wrong about a few things in this post but I'm going to stop arguing with you because it's clear you have an agenda. From day 1 (which was last week) you have been arguing for James' innocence. I should have recognized that from the beginning.
A JSE fan-boy with an agenda. no such thing.....lol.
bigborefan
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8/3/2014 1:18pm
bigborefan wrote:
What's worse implicate order, your blind obedience to JSE, or the other side being ready to condemn him?
And this is where I stop the discussion with you. Thanks.
You were just using double-speak anyway.
8/3/2014 1:19pm
There are plenty of sources. Look in any medical dictionary; adderall used for therapy isn't used as a ped and therefore is not a ped. It's...
There are plenty of sources. Look in any medical dictionary; adderall used for therapy isn't used as a ped and therefore is not a ped. It's as simple as that, and that is why the rules also state that if it is a medical prescription and the proper channels are followed, athletes can use adderall.

My opinion, contrary to what you are claiming, is that you don't have any evidence that Stewart was cheating. Don't confuse that with claiming that Stewart was not cheating. I don't have to make the stronger claim that Stewart was not cheating since that is not my burden of proof.

To reiterate, you have ZERO evidence that Stewart was cheating. You have some assumptions, mixed with incredulity and hearsay. But evidence? No way. If you had evidence, this wouldn't be up for discussion since the evidence would exonerate you from your assumptions.
TripleFive wrote:
You're wrong about a few things in this post but I'm going to stop arguing with you because it's clear you have an agenda. From day...
You're wrong about a few things in this post but I'm going to stop arguing with you because it's clear you have an agenda. From day 1 (which was last week) you have been arguing for James' innocence. I should have recognized that from the beginning.
Show me where I argued for James' innocence. I've said that those accusing him of cheating are lacking in the evidence department, which they are. Please don't confuse me pointing out your assumptions, most of which are based on hearsay, with defending James's innocence. As I said earlier, I don't have to argue for James's innocence since he is not to be assumed guilty until proved innocent. In other words, I have no burden of proof to demonstrate that James is innocent, only that you have not shown that he is guilty. If it bothers you that much that you don't have evidence, that's your problem and not mine. In terms of evidence and provability, assumptions and hearsay don't cut it. Thanks.
8/3/2014 1:22pm
Hearsay.

Presumption of innocence.

Burden of proof.


8/3/2014 1:37pm Edited Date/Time 8/3/2014 1:38pm
TripleFive wrote:
Hearsay. Presumption of innocence. Burden of proof. [img]https://cuddlebuggery.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/you-keep-using-those-words.jpg[/img]
Hearsay.

Presumption of innocence.

Burden of proof.


Where is your evidence that Stewart cheated then? Were you there when he was allegedly taking a ped AND taking it for a performance hit? If not, you've assumed some things.

What about what Matthes has said? Was Matthes there in Stewart's motor home in between motos? If not, then all you have is hearsay.

You are of course, welcome to prove otherwise with some demonstrable facts and that would put an end to this discussion. But we both know that isn't going to happen so I'll stick with my words and what they mean. Smile
Regis
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Fantasy
8/3/2014 1:39pm Edited Date/Time 8/3/2014 1:58pm
OK, let's frame the question differently. The issue at stake here is whether or not James was taking, what is assumed to be adderall, as a...
OK, let's frame the question differently. The issue at stake here is whether or not James was taking, what is assumed to be adderall, as a ped? There's no clear evidence that that's the case and used as a therapeutic drug for a condition, it would not be effective as a ped. You've assumed guilt before having all the facts before you just as you've assumed that Stewart was using iv's in between motos and that's why he dropped out of the second moto at Milleville.
TripleFive wrote:
Care to find me a source that states that Adderall is not a PED if taken for a therapeutic purpose? I haven't gone out of my...
Care to find me a source that states that Adderall is not a PED if taken for a therapeutic purpose?

I haven't gone out of my way to assume guilt. I have simply repeated the sentiment of Matthes and the crew on the BTO show. As I see it, these are the only people who have really reported on the issue.

All I have to from an opinion from is what has been reported. Your opinion is that the evidence doesn't point towards cheating at all. My opinion and the opinion of, from what I can gather all the media that has spoken on the issue is that the evidence is inculpatory. I'm not trying to bury the guy. All I am say is that, from my perspective, the evidence points towards cheating.
There are plenty of sources. Look in any medical dictionary; adderall used for therapy isn't used as a ped and therefore is not a ped. It's...
There are plenty of sources. Look in any medical dictionary; adderall used for therapy isn't used as a ped and therefore is not a ped. It's as simple as that, and that is why the rules also state that if it is a medical prescription and the proper channels are followed, athletes can use adderall.

My opinion, contrary to what you are claiming, is that you don't have any evidence that Stewart was cheating. Don't confuse that with claiming that Stewart was not cheating. I don't have to make the stronger claim that Stewart was not cheating since that is not my burden of proof.

To reiterate, you have ZERO evidence that Stewart was cheating. You have some assumptions, mixed with incredulity and hearsay. But evidence? No way. If you had evidence, this wouldn't be up for discussion since the evidence would exonerate you from your assumptions.
The evidence is the failed drug test with no TUE.

By definition of the rules, that's cheating. The burden of proof now resides with James to prove he wasn't cheating but needed what he took for medical reasons. However, doing that AFTER he got caught will always leave a lot of people questioning the truth regardless.


As far as Millville? Sure.. Bring your own nurse and your own IV's. Of course they were for after the race. Ok. Unfortunately, the court of law will not sway the court of racers and industry opinion that live inside those pit gates week in and week out. The argument of "technically, there is no proof" will only cost him loss of respect by many.


It's truly a shitty situation. For James, that is.

Personally, I would call it a season, go into PR mode. Get my head right and get all my paperwork ready for after I serve my suspension for not following the rules in SX. However, I am not James, I'm just a fan.

Major bummer all the way around.

Are you in the Stewart camp? If so... Tell the fastest man on the planet there is a lot of us that want to see him back and winning.
GuyB
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8/3/2014 1:42pm
TripleFive wrote:
"We can't prove that he was taking IVs between motos, but we all know he was" - Matthes
Well that settles it. Matthes said it so it must be so.





I'm not sure who "we all" is.
GuyB
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8/3/2014 1:45pm
Yet more proof that arguing people like to argue.
plowboy
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8/3/2014 3:56pm
Outsider wrote:
Wait, there's no Santa?!!! WTF?! Sad Sad Sad
My son has some learning disabilities...what we used to label "retarded"...but times have changed and I digress. When he was about 10 his sisters begged me to tell him the truth about Santa cause they were taking so much shit about their brother who.still TOTALLY believed.I took him aside and explained the deal. To my chagrin he shot back.." so I guess the Easter bunny, tooth fairy and Jesus are made up too". Talk about a "come to Jesus moment". Holy parental faux pas.
bigborefan
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8/3/2014 5:17pm
GuyB wrote:
Yet more proof that arguing people like to argue.
Exactly, you are 100% correct GuyB. That's what makes a JSE thread so much fun.
Beast666
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8/3/2014 5:32pm
Under WADA and USADA code IV's are a big no no also.....

M2. Chemical and Physical Manipulation

Tampering or attempting to tamper with a collected sample in order to affect its validity is prohibited.

Intravenous infusions or any intravenous injection of more than 50mL per a six-hour period are prohibited except for those legitimately received in the course of hospital admissions or clinical investigations.

Advisory:

Even if the substance delivered by intravenous infusion is not prohibited (such as iron), the method remains prohibited if given outside of a hospital admission/clinical investigation.
In an emergency, you should always receive appropriate medical care. If the emergency physicians need to insert an intravenous line to save your life or provide emergency medication, request copies of all the clinical documentation for the diagnosis and decision to start the IV and the amount of fluid administered. Once the emergency is over you can communicate with USADA to determine if a TUE is required for the emergency.
Physicians frequently raise concerns about the use of IV infusions in place of/in addition to oral fluid intake in cases of severe gastrointestinal (GI) distress (such as during travel) and dehydration. WADA clarified “the use of IV fluid replacement following exercise to correct mild rehydration is not clinically indicated nor substantiated by the medical literature.” Read more about the use of IV infusions for re-hydration and recovery here.


http://www.usada.org/is-it-prohibited-or-dangerous-for-athletes-using-i…

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