Snowden: Patriot or Traitor ?

G-man
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5/31/2014 3:56pm
I DVR'd it, very interesting as there are usually three sides to every controversy.

It was good to hear his side, he gave up a LOT and seemed very calm, smart and well spoken. He had nothing to gain and EVERYTHING to lose imo.

Patriot!
6/1/2014 6:18am
newb wrote:
No, they said he asked for a legal opinion, and received it, which is exactly what happened.
It's impossible to get anywhere with you.

What information has been released that harms US national security? If you can't answer this question then you have no business calling him a traitor.

What should he have done differently?
6/1/2014 6:54am
TripleFive wrote:
I get [b]really[/b] fired up about this. What damage did he do? Who did he harm? The way I see it, THE GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR US...
I get really fired up about this.

What damage did he do? Who did he harm?


The way I see it, THE GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR US. Beyond the identities of spies, troop movements, and other very limited circumstances, I see almost no compelling justification for secrecy. A man should never be criminally punished for telling the truth about an issue of public concern.

We have a LIMITED government due to a fundamental distrust of those in power. Our constitution provides the government with its power only because we have chosen to do so. The right of the government to act comes EXCLUSIVELY from the will of the people. It follows that when the government acts US citizens have a fundamental right to know.

If the government is perpetrating a mass subversion of the Constitution by gathering PRIVATE data on very US CITIZEN, we have an absolute right to know about it.


EDWARD SNOWDEN IS A PATRIOT.
Nail, meet the TripleFive Hammer.
Racer92
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6/1/2014 7:40am
TripleFive wrote:
I get [b]really[/b] fired up about this. What damage did he do? Who did he harm? The way I see it, THE GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR US...
I get really fired up about this.

What damage did he do? Who did he harm?


The way I see it, THE GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR US. Beyond the identities of spies, troop movements, and other very limited circumstances, I see almost no compelling justification for secrecy. A man should never be criminally punished for telling the truth about an issue of public concern.

We have a LIMITED government due to a fundamental distrust of those in power. Our constitution provides the government with its power only because we have chosen to do so. The right of the government to act comes EXCLUSIVELY from the will of the people. It follows that when the government acts US citizens have a fundamental right to know.

If the government is perpetrating a mass subversion of the Constitution by gathering PRIVATE data on very US CITIZEN, we have an absolute right to know about it.


EDWARD SNOWDEN IS A PATRIOT.
Nail, meet the TripleFive Hammer.
Hard to argue with 555's logic right there.

No law abiding US citizen should fear or have reason to not trust the government. If so, the 'government' has overstepped its role and should be replaced/changed.

The Shop

6/1/2014 7:42am
Racer92 wrote:
Hard to argue with 555's logic right there. No law abiding US citizen should fear or have reason to not trust the government. If so, the...
Hard to argue with 555's logic right there.

No law abiding US citizen should fear or have reason to not trust the government. If so, the 'government' has overstepped its role and should be replaced/changed.
Now the nail is meeting the Bobby Hammer!
6/1/2014 7:43am
I'm thinking the nail has been bent over, and smashed flat - deep into the wood.
CR250Rider
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6/1/2014 8:40am
Why even have courts? Our government knows what's best for us!

Who specifically has been harmed?

Patriot
newb
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6/1/2014 9:24am
newb wrote:
No, they said he asked for a legal opinion, and received it, which is exactly what happened.
TripleFive wrote:
It's impossible to get anywhere with you. What information has been released that harms US national security? If you can't answer this question then you have...
It's impossible to get anywhere with you.

What information has been released that harms US national security? If you can't answer this question then you have no business calling him a traitor.

What should he have done differently?
It's not impossible, but it does require more than emotion.

None of us have a clue what damage has been done, it's not like the enemy is going to send us a telegram with the information they've gleaned from this mess.

But just to put it in perspective, other than major nations like Russia and China, who else would even think we had such capability?

That you can't figure it out or don't have it in black and white where the damage is, doesn't mean no harm has been done. As the old saying goes, you only hear about the spy agency failures, not the successes.

What should he have done differently? Kept his damn mouth shut, that's what. He didn't reveal anything the more intelligent among us didn't already know about. What he did do is expose that capability to the entire world. You can start with the damage THAT alone has done.
6/1/2014 11:18am Edited Date/Time 6/1/2014 11:18am
newb wrote:
It's not impossible, but it does require more than emotion. None of us have a clue what damage has been done, it's not like the enemy...
It's not impossible, but it does require more than emotion.

None of us have a clue what damage has been done, it's not like the enemy is going to send us a telegram with the information they've gleaned from this mess.

But just to put it in perspective, other than major nations like Russia and China, who else would even think we had such capability?

That you can't figure it out or don't have it in black and white where the damage is, doesn't mean no harm has been done. As the old saying goes, you only hear about the spy agency failures, not the successes.

What should he have done differently? Kept his damn mouth shut, that's what. He didn't reveal anything the more intelligent among us didn't already know about. What he did do is expose that capability to the entire world. You can start with the damage THAT alone has done.
You're logic is circular.

"But just to put it in perspective, other than major nations like Russia and China, who else would even think we had such capability?"

and then

"He didn't reveal anything the more intelligent among us didn't already know about."




William Binney gave us most of this information almost a decade ago, and very few people paid attention. I think the United States needed a messenger like Snowden, a villain in the eyes of the government.

I don't know about you, but I feel an obligation to speak up when I witness an injustice.

I MIGHT be more persuaded by the people who believe Snowden is a traitor if the NSA had any evidence at all that their methods worked. Like Snowden mentioned, the CIA, FBI, and other agencies had all of the information they needed to foil the 9/11 plot, they just couldn't pull their heads out of their asses far enough to put the pieces together.

newb
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6/1/2014 11:43am
newb wrote:
It's not impossible, but it does require more than emotion. None of us have a clue what damage has been done, it's not like the enemy...
It's not impossible, but it does require more than emotion.

None of us have a clue what damage has been done, it's not like the enemy is going to send us a telegram with the information they've gleaned from this mess.

But just to put it in perspective, other than major nations like Russia and China, who else would even think we had such capability?

That you can't figure it out or don't have it in black and white where the damage is, doesn't mean no harm has been done. As the old saying goes, you only hear about the spy agency failures, not the successes.

What should he have done differently? Kept his damn mouth shut, that's what. He didn't reveal anything the more intelligent among us didn't already know about. What he did do is expose that capability to the entire world. You can start with the damage THAT alone has done.
TripleFive wrote:
You're logic is circular. [i]"But just to put it in perspective, other than major nations like Russia and China, who else would even think we had...
You're logic is circular.

"But just to put it in perspective, other than major nations like Russia and China, who else would even think we had such capability?"

and then

"He didn't reveal anything the more intelligent among us didn't already know about."




William Binney gave us most of this information almost a decade ago, and very few people paid attention. I think the United States needed a messenger like Snowden, a villain in the eyes of the government.

I don't know about you, but I feel an obligation to speak up when I witness an injustice.

I MIGHT be more persuaded by the people who believe Snowden is a traitor if the NSA had any evidence at all that their methods worked. Like Snowden mentioned, the CIA, FBI, and other agencies had all of the information they needed to foil the 9/11 plot, they just couldn't pull their heads out of their asses far enough to put the pieces together.

If you lived in America after 9-11 and didn't know this was happening, you just weren't paying attention. If you have even a rudimentary grasp of the architecture of the internet, you had to know this was possible. The Chinese government, they get it. A guy living in a cave in Pakistan might not have made that connection yet........but now, thanks to Snowden, the whole world knows what's going on. Anyone who has ever thought their electronic communications were private in this or any other major nation is only fooling themselves.

When we built the first atomic bomb in this country, the folks working on that didn't find it necessary to tell the world what they were doing. Doing so would have been a really bad idea, don't you think? Just disclosing the fact that we had that capability would have put the entire program at risk.

Snowden is no different than the Rosenbergs in regards to the damage he's done.
CR250Rider
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6/1/2014 12:03pm
The spying on innocent people and the abuse of power by individuals would have come out sooner or later.

Don't hate the Truth.




newb
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6/1/2014 12:24pm Edited Date/Time 6/1/2014 12:25pm
CR250Rider wrote:
The spying on innocent people and the abuse of power by individuals would have come out sooner or later. Don't hate the Truth. [img]https://www.sevenwholedays.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/truth.jpg[/img] [img]http://alifetimeofwisdom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/the-truth-will-set-you-free-but-first-it-will-piss-you-off.jpg[/img]
The spying on innocent people and the abuse of power by individuals would have come out sooner or later.

Don't hate the Truth.




The truth was a known entity long before Snowden though.

I am about halfway through part one of this. So far it seems to be a complete depiction of events.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/united-states-of-secrets
Mr. G
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6/1/2014 12:33pm
CR250Rider wrote:
The spying on innocent people and the abuse of power by individuals would have come out sooner or later. Don't hate the Truth. [img]https://www.sevenwholedays.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/truth.jpg[/img] [img]http://alifetimeofwisdom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/the-truth-will-set-you-free-but-first-it-will-piss-you-off.jpg[/img]
The spying on innocent people and the abuse of power by individuals would have come out sooner or later.

Don't hate the Truth.




That is a great quote.
6/1/2014 1:12pm Edited Date/Time 6/1/2014 1:14pm
newb wrote:
If you lived in America after 9-11 and didn't know this was happening, you just weren't paying attention. If you have even a rudimentary grasp of...
If you lived in America after 9-11 and didn't know this was happening, you just weren't paying attention. If you have even a rudimentary grasp of the architecture of the internet, you had to know this was possible. The Chinese government, they get it. A guy living in a cave in Pakistan might not have made that connection yet........but now, thanks to Snowden, the whole world knows what's going on. Anyone who has ever thought their electronic communications were private in this or any other major nation is only fooling themselves.

When we built the first atomic bomb in this country, the folks working on that didn't find it necessary to tell the world what they were doing. Doing so would have been a really bad idea, don't you think? Just disclosing the fact that we had that capability would have put the entire program at risk.

Snowden is no different than the Rosenbergs in regards to the damage he's done.
The atomic bomb did not infringe upon the constitution rights of every American.

You are absolutely NUTS!

The Rosenbergs conspired to sell atomic secrets to the soviets. They were doing this for their own gain at the detriment of every US citizen. Snowden turns over information (documenting a mass usurpation of constitutional guarantees) that has been vetted to news agencies.



I have a feeling you are trolling me. There is no way that you can think those two situations are comparable.
newb
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6/1/2014 2:56pm
newb wrote:
If you lived in America after 9-11 and didn't know this was happening, you just weren't paying attention. If you have even a rudimentary grasp of...
If you lived in America after 9-11 and didn't know this was happening, you just weren't paying attention. If you have even a rudimentary grasp of the architecture of the internet, you had to know this was possible. The Chinese government, they get it. A guy living in a cave in Pakistan might not have made that connection yet........but now, thanks to Snowden, the whole world knows what's going on. Anyone who has ever thought their electronic communications were private in this or any other major nation is only fooling themselves.

When we built the first atomic bomb in this country, the folks working on that didn't find it necessary to tell the world what they were doing. Doing so would have been a really bad idea, don't you think? Just disclosing the fact that we had that capability would have put the entire program at risk.

Snowden is no different than the Rosenbergs in regards to the damage he's done.
TripleFive wrote:
The atomic bomb did not infringe upon the constitution rights of every American. You are absolutely NUTS! The Rosenbergs conspired to sell atomic secrets to the...
The atomic bomb did not infringe upon the constitution rights of every American.

You are absolutely NUTS!

The Rosenbergs conspired to sell atomic secrets to the soviets. They were doing this for their own gain at the detriment of every US citizen. Snowden turns over information (documenting a mass usurpation of constitutional guarantees) that has been vetted to news agencies.



I have a feeling you are trolling me. There is no way that you can think those two situations are comparable.
The Rosenbergs also disclosed state secrets. That was the correlation

If Snowden wasn't the first to disclose this, (he wasn't), and the efforts of others who didn't disclose classified info actually brought about changes, (they did), what did Snowden really accomplish, besides divulging classified info?

Do you really think Snowden is the only person working at NSA that saw a problem and spoke up? Do you honestly believe all these other career people just sat on their hands? He had options. He chose the wrong one and the end result of changes to the program would have been the same without him.

Part two of the PBS program above brings up an interesting point though. Much of what the NSA is doing simply piggybacks on work the private sector is already doing.......If it's not a Constitutional violation for the private sector, how can it be so for the government??????
6/1/2014 10:22pm
Checkmate.

First, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth - either Snowden compromised security or he released info that everyone already knew, it can't be both.


Second, and most importantly, the constitution restrains the government. A private employer can fire you for your beliefs and Google can keep track of your search history - the United States government can do neither.
kongols
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6/1/2014 10:48pm
TripleFive wrote:
Checkmate. First, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth - either Snowden compromised security or he released info that everyone already knew, it can't...
Checkmate.

First, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth - either Snowden compromised security or he released info that everyone already knew, it can't be both.


Second, and most importantly, the constitution restrains the government. A private employer can fire you for your beliefs and Google can keep track of your search history - the United States government can do neither.
How do you feel about him going on Russian TV talking trash about how America spys on it's own people then asks Putin if Russia does that and Putin says no, they are not like America. Snowden then(with a straight face) says thank you Vladimir Vladimirovich.
kongols
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6/1/2014 11:00pm Edited Date/Time 6/1/2014 11:15pm
If it was some hackers anonymous who gave this info I would not have problem with it. He was working for a CIA, he was working with top secret shit, he gave an oath. He then disclosed secrets of a country to it's enemy.
If CIA or military take's him out he deserved it. He's a traitor. He betrayed his country. If he was this moraly straight then he should have never taken that job. Now it looks like he acted like a spy who infiltrated top secret institution of USA defense and then ran away.
Mr. G
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6/2/2014 12:21am
TripleFive wrote:
Checkmate. First, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth - either Snowden compromised security or he released info that everyone already knew, it can't...
Checkmate.

First, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth - either Snowden compromised security or he released info that everyone already knew, it can't be both.


Second, and most importantly, the constitution restrains the government. A private employer can fire you for your beliefs and Google can keep track of your search history - the United States government can do neither.
You are now the official chess coach for Vital. Well done.
bryan
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6/2/2014 1:08am
kongols wrote:
If it was some hackers anonymous who gave this info I would not have problem with it. He was working for a CIA, he was working...
If it was some hackers anonymous who gave this info I would not have problem with it. He was working for a CIA, he was working with top secret shit, he gave an oath. He then disclosed secrets of a country to it's enemy.
If CIA or military take's him out he deserved it. He's a traitor. He betrayed his country. If he was this moraly straight then he should have never taken that job. Now it looks like he acted like a spy who infiltrated top secret institution of USA defense and then ran away.
I don't think he betrayed his country, he betrayed a rouge division of his *government*, for the good of his country. Of course there's good and bad to every side, but It looks to me like there's more good in what he's doing than bad.

I don't know how many of you have seen this spying in action, but it's terrifying how easy it is to piece together whatever story you want about someone when you have every detail about their entire lives to work with. Creative editing of all these bits of information can make a case against anyone.
Mr. G
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6/2/2014 1:20am
X2
newb
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6/2/2014 10:29am
TripleFive wrote:
Checkmate. First, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth - either Snowden compromised security or he released info that everyone already knew, it can't...
Checkmate.

First, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth - either Snowden compromised security or he released info that everyone already knew, it can't be both.


Second, and most importantly, the constitution restrains the government. A private employer can fire you for your beliefs and Google can keep track of your search history - the United States government can do neither.
Obviously, you are convinced you're right. Sleep well with that misconception.
6/2/2014 10:34am
kongols wrote:
If it was some hackers anonymous who gave this info I would not have problem with it. He was working for a CIA, he was working...
If it was some hackers anonymous who gave this info I would not have problem with it. He was working for a CIA, he was working with top secret shit, he gave an oath. He then disclosed secrets of a country to it's enemy.
If CIA or military take's him out he deserved it. He's a traitor. He betrayed his country. If he was this moraly straight then he should have never taken that job. Now it looks like he acted like a spy who infiltrated top secret institution of USA defense and then ran away.
He didn't give an oath to the government, he gave an oath to the Constitution and to the country.

He served his country by bring to light a gross subversion of the Fourth Amendment.
6/2/2014 10:50am
newb wrote:
Obviously, you are convinced you're right. Sleep well with that misconception.
I believe that I am right, but you seem to be refusing to accept the possibility that you might be wrong.

I just want to be clear about something; do you believe that appraising US citizens to the fact that their Fourth Amendment rights are being violated en masse is not justified in light of the possibility that terrorists will forgo communicating digitally in fear of their communications being intercepted?

You believe that the actual harm, the damage to the privacy of every citizen, is outweighed by hypothetical possibilities?
newb
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6/2/2014 11:06am Edited Date/Time 6/2/2014 11:16am
kongols wrote:
If it was some hackers anonymous who gave this info I would not have problem with it. He was working for a CIA, he was working...
If it was some hackers anonymous who gave this info I would not have problem with it. He was working for a CIA, he was working with top secret shit, he gave an oath. He then disclosed secrets of a country to it's enemy.
If CIA or military take's him out he deserved it. He's a traitor. He betrayed his country. If he was this moraly straight then he should have never taken that job. Now it looks like he acted like a spy who infiltrated top secret institution of USA defense and then ran away.
TripleFive wrote:
He didn't give an oath to the government, he gave an oath to the Constitution and to the country. He served his country by bring to...
He didn't give an oath to the government, he gave an oath to the Constitution and to the country.

He served his country by bring to light a gross subversion of the Fourth Amendment.
So it's your contention that no other NSA staffers brought this stuff to the attention of higher ups? ONLY the man you call a patriot was brave enough to speak up? Is that what you're suggesting? Or is he the only one to disclose classified info in the process?

Or let's try a different tact. Were you not aware this was happening before Snowden?

Snowden is a traitor of the highest order who also happens to be an attention whore.
6/2/2014 11:18am
newb wrote:
So it's your contention that no other NSA staffers brought this stuff to the attention of higher ups? ONLY the man you call a patriot was...
So it's your contention that no other NSA staffers brought this stuff to the attention of higher ups? ONLY the man you call a patriot was brave enough to speak up? Is that what you're suggesting? Or is he the only one to disclose classified info in the process?

Or let's try a different tact. Were you not aware this was happening before Snowden?

Snowden is a traitor of the highest order who also happens to be an attention whore.
Is it my contention that no other NSA staffers brought this up?

No. Why does this matter?

Is he the only person that disclosed classified information?

No. William Binney did almost a decade ago. Again, I don't see why this matters. A whistle was blown in the past but it obviously garnished very little attention. It was time for another whistle, only this time with the documented evidence to blow the lid off.




Snowden might have betrayed his position, but he sure as hell did not betray his country. The government is violating the constitutional rights of every US citizen. What they are doing is a crime. If the founders wanted to put security before liberty they would have.

newb
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6/2/2014 11:26am
newb wrote:
So it's your contention that no other NSA staffers brought this stuff to the attention of higher ups? ONLY the man you call a patriot was...
So it's your contention that no other NSA staffers brought this stuff to the attention of higher ups? ONLY the man you call a patriot was brave enough to speak up? Is that what you're suggesting? Or is he the only one to disclose classified info in the process?

Or let's try a different tact. Were you not aware this was happening before Snowden?

Snowden is a traitor of the highest order who also happens to be an attention whore.
TripleFive wrote:
Is it my contention that no other NSA staffers brought this up? No. Why does this matter? Is he the only person that disclosed classified information...
Is it my contention that no other NSA staffers brought this up?

No. Why does this matter?

Is he the only person that disclosed classified information?

No. William Binney did almost a decade ago. Again, I don't see why this matters. A whistle was blown in the past but it obviously garnished very little attention. It was time for another whistle, only this time with the documented evidence to blow the lid off.




Snowden might have betrayed his position, but he sure as hell did not betray his country. The government is violating the constitutional rights of every US citizen. What they are doing is a crime. If the founders wanted to put security before liberty they would have.

The reason it matters is because others have accomplished far more without releasing classified info.
6/2/2014 11:33am
newb wrote:
The reason it matters is because others have accomplished far more without releasing classified info.
Others have accomplished far more? I don't believe that to be true.

Do you think the American public has a right to know that the NSA is spying on them?
newb
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6/2/2014 11:40am
newb wrote:
The reason it matters is because others have accomplished far more without releasing classified info.
TripleFive wrote:
Others have accomplished far more? I don't believe that to be true. Do you think the American public has a right to know that the NSA...
Others have accomplished far more? I don't believe that to be true.

Do you think the American public has a right to know that the NSA is spying on them?
The American public has an "obligation" to know that. Just like Snowden had an "obligation" not to disclose classified info. It's never really been a secret that this was happening or even that it was going to happen. Some paid attention, some didn't I guess.

kongols
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6/2/2014 12:06pm
During the war he`d be taken behind the shed and shot.

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