Snowden: Patriot or Traitor ?

oldAFI
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5/30/2014 9:48am
TheCynic82 wrote:
That makes a lot of sense.
5/30/2014 10:08am
I get really fired up about this.

What damage did he do? Who did he harm?


The way I see it, THE GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR US. Beyond the identities of spies, troop movements, and other very limited circumstances, I see almost no compelling justification for secrecy. A man should never be criminally punished for telling the truth about an issue of public concern.

We have a LIMITED government due to a fundamental distrust of those in power. Our constitution provides the government with its power only because we have chosen to do so. The right of the government to act comes EXCLUSIVELY from the will of the people. It follows that when the government acts US citizens have a fundamental right to know.

If the government is perpetrating a mass subversion of the Constitution by gathering PRIVATE data on very US CITIZEN, we have an absolute right to know about it.


EDWARD SNOWDEN IS A PATRIOT.
5/30/2014 10:14am Edited Date/Time 5/30/2014 10:15am
newb wrote:
PLENTY of legal and less destructive means were available to Snowden. He chose the attention whore route.
What legal means were available that he didn't take? He has documented proof evidencing his attempts to raise red flags within the government. Moreover, a court challenge would likely be thrown out due to executive or state's secret privilege.

What destruction has he done? In what world do you live in where providing truthful information becomes destruction?



The Shop

newb
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5/30/2014 11:53am
newb wrote:
PLENTY of legal and less destructive means were available to Snowden. He chose the attention whore route.
TripleFive wrote:
[u]What legal means were available that he didn't take?[/u] He has documented proof evidencing his attempts to raise red flags within the government. Moreover, a court...
What legal means were available that he didn't take? He has documented proof evidencing his attempts to raise red flags within the government. Moreover, a court challenge would likely be thrown out due to executive or state's secret privilege.

What destruction has he done? In what world do you live in where providing truthful information becomes destruction?



I have a little more concern for state secrets than some others do apparently. If you can't figure out how revealing state secrets to foreign nations is a problem, then we probably don't have much to talk about.
5/30/2014 12:57pm
newb wrote:
I have a little more concern for state secrets than some others do apparently. If you can't figure out how revealing state secrets to foreign nations...
I have a little more concern for state secrets than some others do apparently. If you can't figure out how revealing state secrets to foreign nations is a problem, then we probably don't have much to talk about.
What information released by Snowden, in your opinion, jeopardizes the security of Americans?

newb
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5/30/2014 1:37pm
newb wrote:
I have a little more concern for state secrets than some others do apparently. If you can't figure out how revealing state secrets to foreign nations...
I have a little more concern for state secrets than some others do apparently. If you can't figure out how revealing state secrets to foreign nations is a problem, then we probably don't have much to talk about.
TripleFive wrote:
What information released by Snowden, in your opinion, jeopardizes the security of Americans?

Maybe we should be asking Russia?
5/30/2014 2:05pm
newb wrote:
Maybe we should be asking Russia?
Snowden does not have any of the information that he gathered with him in Russia, nor does he have access to it.

He has no relationship with the Russian government whatsoever.
newb
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5/30/2014 2:16pm
newb wrote:
Maybe we should be asking Russia?
TripleFive wrote:
Snowden does not have any of the information that he gathered with him in Russia, nor does he have access to it. He has no relationship...
Snowden does not have any of the information that he gathered with him in Russia, nor does he have access to it.

He has no relationship with the Russian government whatsoever.
I see. So why is the Russian government helping him then?
5/30/2014 2:23pm
newb wrote:
I see. So why is the Russian government helping him then?
What information do you have would lead you to believe that the Russian government is helping him?


newb
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5/30/2014 3:49pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2014 3:49pm
newb wrote:
I see. So why is the Russian government helping him then?
TripleFive wrote:
What information do you have would lead you to believe that the Russian government is helping him?


There'a a line from that movie The Hunt for Red October, "Ruskies don't take a dump without a plan son".

Sounds appropriate when it comes to granting Snowden asylum in Russia.
oldAFI
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5/30/2014 4:27pm
newb wrote:
I see. So why is the Russian government helping him then?
TripleFive wrote:
What information do you have would lead you to believe that the Russian government is helping him?


newb wrote:
There'a a line from that movie The Hunt for Red October, "Ruskies don't take a dump without a plan son". Sounds appropriate when it comes to...
There'a a line from that movie The Hunt for Red October, "Ruskies don't take a dump without a plan son".

Sounds appropriate when it comes to granting Snowden asylum in Russia.
What exactly did Snowden do that you disagree with?
newb
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5/30/2014 4:41pm
TripleFive wrote:
What information do you have would lead you to believe that the Russian government is helping him?


newb wrote:
There'a a line from that movie The Hunt for Red October, "Ruskies don't take a dump without a plan son". Sounds appropriate when it comes to...
There'a a line from that movie The Hunt for Red October, "Ruskies don't take a dump without a plan son".

Sounds appropriate when it comes to granting Snowden asylum in Russia.
oldAFI wrote:
What exactly did Snowden do that you disagree with?
Hard to tell if that's a serious question or not. I'll assume it is.

Data dump.
oldAFI
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5/30/2014 4:59pm
newb wrote:
There'a a line from that movie The Hunt for Red October, "Ruskies don't take a dump without a plan son". Sounds appropriate when it comes to...
There'a a line from that movie The Hunt for Red October, "Ruskies don't take a dump without a plan son".

Sounds appropriate when it comes to granting Snowden asylum in Russia.
oldAFI wrote:
What exactly did Snowden do that you disagree with?
newb wrote:
Hard to tell if that's a serious question or not. I'll assume it is.

Data dump.
Dude you're so vague I wonder if you even know what you're talking about.

If we want liberty we need transparency, if we want dictatorship we need Snowden in jail.
newb
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5/30/2014 5:21pm
But I didn't need Snowden to go on his attention whore tour to tell me what I already knew. The program was known before Snowden came along, he accomplished little of any good and untold mountains of bad by his actions.

Snowden is neither a hero or patriot.
the_wood109
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5/30/2014 5:48pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2014 6:20pm
I initially thought of Snowden as an American patriot, but I've elevated that view to more of an international importance. The reason being is that every major government around the world engages in this type of activity.

The most important thing that Snowden has done, is brought this to light on an international scale. I think it's key for everyone to consider this as an international issue, not simply an American one.

As Snowden is finding out, governments are eager to offer him very little in return for the great deal of political propaganda potential against the United States. It's sickening to see him as a Russian pawn for the situation in Ukraine, for example. He really doesn't have much of a choice at this point, which is why it is important for people to recognize this issue on an international scale.

The bit I've taken from all of this, is a new found respect of open source software and protocols. At this point, it's the only defense against this type of privacy invasion, and technology corporations are all to willing to play ball for the political agendas of various governments. The most notable being the US, and China.

His analysis of 9/11 is spot on. Politicians like to blame intelligence for what happened, but the truth is that it was failure to act on information that was readily available. Likewise, the potential for the repression of the people is limitless with this type of data acquisition, and we can already see it being put into practice.
Mr. G
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5/30/2014 6:09pm
One of the reasons there is so much disagreement is that the premise of the question is all wrong. He is not either or, he is both a traitor and a patriot.
5/30/2014 6:15pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2014 6:15pm
newb wrote:
But I didn't need Snowden to go on his attention whore tour to tell me what I already knew. The program was known before Snowden came...
But I didn't need Snowden to go on his attention whore tour to tell me what I already knew. The program was known before Snowden came along, he accomplished little of any good and untold mountains of bad by his actions.

Snowden is neither a hero or patriot.
Mountains of bad...

Do you understand how the information he gathered has been released? Do you understand what information has been released.

Are you confusing Bradley "Chelsea" Manning with Snowden?

It's becoming apparent that you don't really know what is going on.
newb
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5/30/2014 6:45pm
I initially thought of Snowden as an American patriot, but I've elevated that view to more of an international importance. The reason being is that every...
I initially thought of Snowden as an American patriot, but I've elevated that view to more of an international importance. The reason being is that every major government around the world engages in this type of activity.

The most important thing that Snowden has done, is brought this to light on an international scale. I think it's key for everyone to consider this as an international issue, not simply an American one.

As Snowden is finding out, governments are eager to offer him very little in return for the great deal of political propaganda potential against the United States. It's sickening to see him as a Russian pawn for the situation in Ukraine, for example. He really doesn't have much of a choice at this point, which is why it is important for people to recognize this issue on an international scale.

The bit I've taken from all of this, is a new found respect of open source software and protocols. At this point, it's the only defense against this type of privacy invasion, and technology corporations are all to willing to play ball for the political agendas of various governments. The most notable being the US, and China.

His analysis of 9/11 is spot on. Politicians like to blame intelligence for what happened, but the truth is that it was failure to act on information that was readily available. Likewise, the potential for the repression of the people is limitless with this type of data acquisition, and we can already see it being put into practice.
I don't see this as an open source solution at all. The architecture of the internet is what makes all this possible, not any specific protocol. Multiple protocols route over the internet now.

This became real the day the public internet was announced, perhaps longer than Snowden has been alive.

He's 30 now, he joined the army at 20.
the_wood109
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5/30/2014 6:58pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2014 6:59pm
I initially thought of Snowden as an American patriot, but I've elevated that view to more of an international importance. The reason being is that every...
I initially thought of Snowden as an American patriot, but I've elevated that view to more of an international importance. The reason being is that every major government around the world engages in this type of activity.

The most important thing that Snowden has done, is brought this to light on an international scale. I think it's key for everyone to consider this as an international issue, not simply an American one.

As Snowden is finding out, governments are eager to offer him very little in return for the great deal of political propaganda potential against the United States. It's sickening to see him as a Russian pawn for the situation in Ukraine, for example. He really doesn't have much of a choice at this point, which is why it is important for people to recognize this issue on an international scale.

The bit I've taken from all of this, is a new found respect of open source software and protocols. At this point, it's the only defense against this type of privacy invasion, and technology corporations are all to willing to play ball for the political agendas of various governments. The most notable being the US, and China.

His analysis of 9/11 is spot on. Politicians like to blame intelligence for what happened, but the truth is that it was failure to act on information that was readily available. Likewise, the potential for the repression of the people is limitless with this type of data acquisition, and we can already see it being put into practice.
newb wrote:
I don't see this as an open source solution at all. The architecture of the internet is what makes all this possible, not any specific protocol...
I don't see this as an open source solution at all. The architecture of the internet is what makes all this possible, not any specific protocol. Multiple protocols route over the internet now.

This became real the day the public internet was announced, perhaps longer than Snowden has been alive.

He's 30 now, he joined the army at 20.
Right, I'm talking about (encryption) protocols that have been, at least alleged to have back door access. Specifically, those backdoors imposed by agencies such as the NSA.

Open source simply means working towards a sound objective that isn't tainted by a political agenda, as long as the community is able to identify the potential security holes. Of course, with holes like the heartbleed bug it doesn't ensure security, but it does at least offer potential in that respect.
the_wood109
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5/30/2014 7:03pm
I'm not sure how much you know, but specific protocols are what gives the internet "secure" capabilities. Specifically, tunneling and encryption.
5/30/2014 8:22pm
Ya want security? Close the borders off.....Shut the demy libby libbs up and start totally allowing profiling/ stereo typing! FUCK political correctness already! All we do is allow shit to happen to ourselves by dropping our guard.
And before any one wants to go ahead and call me "prejudice" you better look up the term! I'll prejudge anyone I want and their isn't a damb thing any libb or any one else is gonna do about it! Oh I may not ever say it out loud but you can damb well bet I'm thinking it!

But yeah, Snowden gets a pass in my book!
lestat
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5/30/2014 11:19pm
a traitor to the government , a patriot to the people .
Mr. G
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5/31/2014 12:00am
There you go. Lestat summed it up perfectly.
newb
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5/31/2014 10:59am Edited Date/Time 5/31/2014 11:00am
Mr. G wrote:
There you go. Lestat summed it up perfectly.
Except governments are made up of the same people as we the people, so, it really doesn't even make sense. The government is not a thing, it's people., just like you and I.

See how easy it is to reply to someone without telling them to fuck off?
bsm121
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5/31/2014 12:23pm
Mr. G wrote:
There you go. Lestat summed it up perfectly.
newb wrote:
Except governments are made up of the same people as we the people, so, it really doesn't even make sense. The government is not a thing...
Except governments are made up of the same people as we the people, so, it really doesn't even make sense. The government is not a thing, it's people., just like you and I.

See how easy it is to reply to someone without telling them to fuck off?
"Just like you and I"...

Not so much.
5/31/2014 12:48pm
newb wrote:
The government has never denied the existence of his email.
Yeah, they pretty much did when they said that there is no evidence.

And it seems like you also denied it, too.
newb
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5/31/2014 1:40pm Edited Date/Time 5/31/2014 1:41pm
newb wrote:
The government has never denied the existence of his email.
TripleFive wrote:
Yeah, they pretty much did when they said that there is no evidence.

And it seems like you also denied it, too.
No, they said he asked for a legal opinion, and received it, which is exactly what happened.

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