250 East West-keep them separate or not?

The Rock
Posts
8758
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI, USA
Edited Date/Time 5/13/2013 6:07pm
MXA like some others want them combined but I disagree.

Smaller efforts can't afford to race 17 events. The best rule change they could make to the 250 SX series is sealed motors that have to last X amount of races (2 or 3?) to get rid of these ultra high dollar motors to level the playing field slightly.

What do you think?
|
bd
Posts
6047
Joined
4/6/2007
Location
Las Vegas, NV, USA
5/12/2013 8:52pm
Disagree.... if we combine series, 250F teams will shrink. Additionally, its times we do not consider the 250F SX class a stepping stone. Its far from it.

Agree with 250F/T Class & 350-450F/T Class
TDeath21
Posts
6515
Joined
2/22/2011
Location
Somewhere, MO, USA
5/12/2013 9:00pm
I am against it. There's no way privateers can go across the entire country and compete.
Toste
Posts
494
Joined
5/24/2009
Location
Pahrump, NV, USA
Fantasy
5/12/2013 9:04pm
I'm with MXA on this one.
Crush
Posts
21135
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney, AU
5/12/2013 9:13pm
Why does this keep coming up?

Does MXA want to guarantee they'll give jobs to roughly a third of the industry and riders that would be without?!?!

Or to the teams that could make it do they want to float the budget to do the "Other coast"

Or how about the little guys who are struggling to get by, what then?

Fuck. This has been discussed so much and the only reasons it comes up is people think it would be better seeing all the comp in one race - it wouldn't, it'd be like every other race, there would still be a winner and a whole bunch of guys who get LESS exposure.... and then there is the nitwits who suggest that it's no longer a beginners class... AS IF THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE!

Who cares, it's fine the way it is, there is interest and conjecture about who is the best coast, it gives the younger guys a way to learn doing SX without doing all 17 rounds and really all it will do is make a bunch of guys look for a paycheck at macdonalds.

No benefit, move on.

The Shop

Choppy
Posts
1931
Joined
12/16/2012
Location
USA
5/12/2013 9:14pm
The Rock wrote:
[url=http://motocrossactionmag.com/mobile/News/BLACK-WHITE-WHY-THE-250-EAST-WEST-SUPERCROSS-SERIE-9075.aspx]MXA[/url] like some others want them combined but I disagree. Smaller efforts can't afford to race 17 events. The best rule change they could make to...
MXA like some others want them combined but I disagree.

Smaller efforts can't afford to race 17 events. The best rule change they could make to the 250 SX series is sealed motors that have to last X amount of races (2 or 3?) to get rid of these ultra high dollar motors to level the playing field slightly.

What do you think?
If you combine them you ultimately destroy a ton of people's life's, as they'll lose their jobs. Not only riders but mechanics etc.
As a fan I enjoy knowing that if the 450 class is boring with one guy running away with things and the west coast is boring because someone's dominating, that we will be getting a breath of fresh air when the east coast series starts. As a fan that keeps me watching. If you do what that article wants you also end up with a two man 250f team for every team and in some cases they might even feel they only need 1. I dont kbow many fans who would want less supported racers. This also prevents riders from having any time off during a series to heal from overtraining or injury and maybe return to still have an opportunity at the championship.

Who wrote that article?
Choppy
Posts
1931
Joined
12/16/2012
Location
USA
5/12/2013 9:18pm
Let's not forget that less 250f riders for SX would translate to less 250f riders having a ride for the outdoors.
Crush
Posts
21135
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney, AU
5/12/2013 9:19pm
And really, as if there isn't other things in the sport that could be improved without this circle jerk of a conversation...

Hows about:

• Buying some more dirt so the tracks aren't made up of 3 foot singles for rhythm sections

• Getting some rider designed or more imaginative/better racing tracks. I see amazing tracks every week on Vurb, can we not just have a conversaton between riders, dirt wurx, dream traxx, feld etc... It's not hard, no egos, just build better tracks.

• And while you're at it, hows aboot putting berms back out there for a few passing opportunities... Nets on the outside of the berms/front of the stands, not hard, done the world over with sports everywhere...
fader418
Posts
2831
Joined
9/14/2009
Location
Lake Forest, CA, USA
5/12/2013 9:22pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2013 9:24pm
Seperate
Toste
Posts
494
Joined
5/24/2009
Location
Pahrump, NV, USA
Fantasy
5/12/2013 9:27pm
Crush wrote:
Why does this keep coming up? Does MXA want to guarantee they'll give jobs to roughly a third of the industry and riders that would be...
Why does this keep coming up?

Does MXA want to guarantee they'll give jobs to roughly a third of the industry and riders that would be without?!?!

Or to the teams that could make it do they want to float the budget to do the "Other coast"

Or how about the little guys who are struggling to get by, what then?

Fuck. This has been discussed so much and the only reasons it comes up is people think it would be better seeing all the comp in one race - it wouldn't, it'd be like every other race, there would still be a winner and a whole bunch of guys who get LESS exposure.... and then there is the nitwits who suggest that it's no longer a beginners class... AS IF THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE!

Who cares, it's fine the way it is, there is interest and conjecture about who is the best coast, it gives the younger guys a way to learn doing SX without doing all 17 rounds and really all it will do is make a bunch of guys look for a paycheck at macdonalds.

No benefit, move on.
By that logic, why not add North and South divisions as well? It would mean more industry jobs, right?

Doesn't the quality of the jobs (and the product itself) count for something at some point?
Choppy
Posts
1931
Joined
12/16/2012
Location
USA
5/12/2013 9:32pm
Crush wrote:
Why does this keep coming up? Does MXA want to guarantee they'll give jobs to roughly a third of the industry and riders that would be...
Why does this keep coming up?

Does MXA want to guarantee they'll give jobs to roughly a third of the industry and riders that would be without?!?!

Or to the teams that could make it do they want to float the budget to do the "Other coast"

Or how about the little guys who are struggling to get by, what then?

Fuck. This has been discussed so much and the only reasons it comes up is people think it would be better seeing all the comp in one race - it wouldn't, it'd be like every other race, there would still be a winner and a whole bunch of guys who get LESS exposure.... and then there is the nitwits who suggest that it's no longer a beginners class... AS IF THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE!

Who cares, it's fine the way it is, there is interest and conjecture about who is the best coast, it gives the younger guys a way to learn doing SX without doing all 17 rounds and really all it will do is make a bunch of guys look for a paycheck at macdonalds.

No benefit, move on.
Toste wrote:
By that logic, why not add North and South divisions as well? It would mean more industry jobs, right? Doesn't the [i]quality[/i] of the jobs (and...
By that logic, why not add North and South divisions as well? It would mean more industry jobs, right?

Doesn't the quality of the jobs (and the product itself) count for something at some point?
Do you wear an orange helmet?
Choppy
Posts
1931
Joined
12/16/2012
Location
USA
5/12/2013 9:34pm
Toste wrote:
By that logic, why not add North and South divisions as well? It would mean more industry jobs, right? Doesn't the [i]quality[/i] of the jobs (and...
By that logic, why not add North and South divisions as well? It would mean more industry jobs, right?

Doesn't the quality of the jobs (and the product itself) count for something at some point?
And by your logic why not just have one 450 race?
Crush
Posts
21135
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney, AU
5/12/2013 9:43pm
Toste wrote:
By that logic, why not add North and South divisions as well? It would mean more industry jobs, right? Doesn't the [i]quality[/i] of the jobs (and...
By that logic, why not add North and South divisions as well? It would mean more industry jobs, right?

Doesn't the quality of the jobs (and the product itself) count for something at some point?
That's ridiculous... And irrelevant.

Yeah if you added a north and south it would mean more riders have a job, but that isn't on the table and costs would be prohibitively high for the big teams vs exposure. This isn't NBA.

And beside, what quality of job would improve if the classes were combined? What quality of the product, ie the racing would improve? Is the quality of the national 250 class so much better than each regional SX titles, as to shoe a way to improve some sort of value? I don't think so really, do you?

Shit the east west shootout isn't and hasn't ever really been as big as the coast titles... I'd admit it's prolly worse now with the finals being at Vegas, but that would easily be remedied if they put a big purse and a truck up for the winner of the shootout itself.

The classes are fine and the only perceived benefit is somehow knowing who is the best in the class, which compared to the negatives (to the entire industry, and all the riders except maybe the combined top 5) that I and others have listed above is firmly in the who cares category.

MXA seem to have an axe to grind with everything and everyone at some point and a lot of the time it seems they just write babble in an attempt to stay relevant...
Sully
Posts
9519
Joined
8/24/2006
Location
JP
5/12/2013 9:44pm
Since when has 20 guys racing been better than 40 guys racing? Keep 'em separate.
Crush
Posts
21135
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney, AU
5/12/2013 9:44pm
KennyT
Posts
4411
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Vista, CA, USA
Fantasy
5/12/2013 9:58pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2013 10:00pm
I would like to see them combined. This is supposed to be a professional sport taking place in the largest stadiums in the country and fans deserve to see the best riders at all rounds. Right now it only happens in Vegas.

The talent level in both classes is spread so far apart it is ridiculous. Combining would tighten up both classes
Toste
Posts
494
Joined
5/24/2009
Location
Pahrump, NV, USA
Fantasy
5/12/2013 10:05pm
Crush wrote:
That's ridiculous... And irrelevant. Yeah if you added a north and south it would mean more riders have a job, but that isn't on the table...
That's ridiculous... And irrelevant.

Yeah if you added a north and south it would mean more riders have a job, but that isn't on the table and costs would be prohibitively high for the big teams vs exposure. This isn't NBA.

And beside, what quality of job would improve if the classes were combined? What quality of the product, ie the racing would improve? Is the quality of the national 250 class so much better than each regional SX titles, as to shoe a way to improve some sort of value? I don't think so really, do you?

Shit the east west shootout isn't and hasn't ever really been as big as the coast titles... I'd admit it's prolly worse now with the finals being at Vegas, but that would easily be remedied if they put a big purse and a truck up for the winner of the shootout itself.

The classes are fine and the only perceived benefit is somehow knowing who is the best in the class, which compared to the negatives (to the entire industry, and all the riders except maybe the combined top 5) that I and others have listed above is firmly in the who cares category.

MXA seem to have an axe to grind with everything and everyone at some point and a lot of the time it seems they just write babble in an attempt to stay relevant...
Yes, I do think the competition in the 250 MX Nationals is that much better than the regional SX series.
Choppy
Posts
1931
Joined
12/16/2012
Location
USA
5/12/2013 10:16pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2013 10:17pm
Toste wrote:
Yes, I do think the competition in the 250 MX Nationals is that much better than the regional SX series.
And if you combine the east west series for SX then you'll have less supported riders doing the 250 outdoors because teams won't have 4 riders.
MX7MX
Posts
845
Joined
8/28/2007
Location
USA
5/12/2013 10:28pm
How would you guys feel if they split the 450 class into east and west coast???? Have dungey on one coast and RV on the other???? Would you guys like that? What's the difference?
Toste
Posts
494
Joined
5/24/2009
Location
Pahrump, NV, USA
Fantasy
5/12/2013 10:36pm
Choppy wrote:
And if you combine the east west series for SX then you'll have less supported riders doing the 250 outdoors because teams won't have 4 riders.
How many "supported" riders does there really need to be?

I don't see riders finishing south of 20th place being in demand on reputable teams either way.
Toste
Posts
494
Joined
5/24/2009
Location
Pahrump, NV, USA
Fantasy
5/12/2013 10:37pm
MX7MX wrote:
How would you guys feel if they split the 450 class into east and west coast???? Have dungey on one coast and RV on the other...
How would you guys feel if they split the 450 class into east and west coast???? Have dungey on one coast and RV on the other???? Would you guys like that? What's the difference?
Exactly.
Choppy
Posts
1931
Joined
12/16/2012
Location
USA
5/12/2013 10:40pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2013 10:41pm
MX7MX wrote:
How would you guys feel if they split the 450 class into east and west coast???? Have dungey on one coast and RV on the other...
How would you guys feel if they split the 450 class into east and west coast???? Have dungey on one coast and RV on the other???? Would you guys like that? What's the difference?
The 250 class in SX is a development class that riders point out of. The 450 class is not.
Choppy
Posts
1931
Joined
12/16/2012
Location
USA
5/12/2013 10:54pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2013 10:58pm
Choppy wrote:
And if you combine the east west series for SX then you'll have less supported riders doing the 250 outdoors because teams won't have 4 riders.
Toste wrote:
How many "supported" riders does there really need to be? I don't see riders finishing south of 20th place being in demand on reputable teams either...
How many "supported" riders does there really need to be?

I don't see riders finishing south of 20th place being in demand on reputable teams either way.
You end up with 2 riders as apposed to 4.
So what you end up with for example is Wilson and Bagget riding for PC outdoors as apposed to having Davalous, Rattray, Durham etc etc outdoors as well as Bagget snd Wilson because those other guys wouldn't be on the team for SX.

Those guys can win motos and races outdoors, and also add major depth to the class but would potentially end up without a ride because it makes no sense to have more than 2 riders on your team indoors to compete for a championship.

We're not talking only guys outside of the top 20 losing jobs if they combined the classes. We all love how stacked the outdoors is in the 250f class. IMO the Sx series being split accounts for that.
Crush
Posts
21135
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney, AU
5/12/2013 11:00pm
Choppy wrote:
And if you combine the east west series for SX then you'll have less supported riders doing the 250 outdoors because teams won't have 4 riders.
Toste wrote:
How many "supported" riders does there really need to be? I don't see riders finishing south of 20th place being in demand on reputable teams either...
How many "supported" riders does there really need to be?

I don't see riders finishing south of 20th place being in demand on reputable teams either way.
Hey dude...

We're closing down your factory/business/venture because some dude thought there was no point having two factories when we can just have one big one...

What's that? People's jobs? Opportunities? Economy?

Is that really more important than a stepping stone class national title? Really?
Landonious217
Posts
555
Joined
11/14/2010
Location
Grapevine, TX, USA
5/12/2013 11:02pm
MX7MX wrote:
How would you guys feel if they split the 450 class into east and west coast???? Have dungey on one coast and RV on the other...
How would you guys feel if they split the 450 class into east and west coast???? Have dungey on one coast and RV on the other???? Would you guys like that? What's the difference?
Choppy wrote:
The 250 class in SX is a development class that riders point out of. The 450 class is not.
125's have been gone for awhile not sure how you see this class as developmental? The 250f/450f times are almost identical.
Landonious217
Posts
555
Joined
11/14/2010
Location
Grapevine, TX, USA
5/12/2013 11:05pm
Choppy wrote:
And if you combine the east west series for SX then you'll have less supported riders doing the 250 outdoors because teams won't have 4 riders.
Toste wrote:
How many "supported" riders does there really need to be? I don't see riders finishing south of 20th place being in demand on reputable teams either...
How many "supported" riders does there really need to be?

I don't see riders finishing south of 20th place being in demand on reputable teams either way.
Choppy wrote:
You end up with 2 riders as apposed to 4. So what you end up with for example is Wilson and Bagget riding for PC outdoors...
You end up with 2 riders as apposed to 4.
So what you end up with for example is Wilson and Bagget riding for PC outdoors as apposed to having Davalous, Rattray, Durham etc etc outdoors as well as Bagget snd Wilson because those other guys wouldn't be on the team for SX.

Those guys can win motos and races outdoors, and also add major depth to the class but would potentially end up without a ride because it makes no sense to have more than 2 riders on your team indoors to compete for a championship.

We're not talking only guys outside of the top 20 losing jobs if they combined the classes. We all love how stacked the outdoors is in the 250f class. IMO the Sx series being split accounts for that.
Or the glass could be half full and smaller teams could get their names out there by having better riders to choose from when hiring. I remember Durham riding well at eleven10 mods.
Crush
Posts
21135
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney, AU
5/12/2013 11:06pm
The 250 class is still a development class. It's still easier for a guy to try get the bucks together to do 7 races on one coast than 17 across the whole country...

And it's clear to see that there are less opportunities in the 450 class... Why do you think riders like Davalos, Sipes, Brown, Pingree, Ramsay, Johnson pretty much made careers out of the tiddler class... Because the opportunities there are exactly DOUBLE the big bike class...

I can't comprehend how this is even an issue. I could give two shits that K-Roc and Hahn both have titles. By the logic being presented here, there is no reason for Supercross and Motocross, just have one title.

While you're at it, Fuck MXGPs and the AMA circuit, EARTH-CROSS is where it's at... A globe trotting circuit where only the people with enough dollars can afford to race and the rest of you go home to work in mcdonalds... jerkies!
Landonious217
Posts
555
Joined
11/14/2010
Location
Grapevine, TX, USA
5/12/2013 11:13pm
Crush wrote:
The 250 class is still a development class. It's still easier for a guy to try get the bucks together to do 7 races on one...
The 250 class is still a development class. It's still easier for a guy to try get the bucks together to do 7 races on one coast than 17 across the whole country...

And it's clear to see that there are less opportunities in the 450 class... Why do you think riders like Davalos, Sipes, Brown, Pingree, Ramsay, Johnson pretty much made careers out of the tiddler class... Because the opportunities there are exactly DOUBLE the big bike class...

I can't comprehend how this is even an issue. I could give two shits that K-Roc and Hahn both have titles. By the logic being presented here, there is no reason for Supercross and Motocross, just have one title.

While you're at it, Fuck MXGPs and the AMA circuit, EARTH-CROSS is where it's at... A globe trotting circuit where only the people with enough dollars can afford to race and the rest of you go home to work in mcdonalds... jerkies!
Who are these riders only riding 7 sx rounds making money? I know the owner of an east coast sx team (SMS Racing) and I'm pretty sure the rider is just getting a bike, not getting paid.

Not too mention here in TX some of the local pro races pay better than any sx purse, also comes with free entry. I'm just unclear on what riders you are talking about wont make money?
Choppy
Posts
1931
Joined
12/16/2012
Location
USA
5/12/2013 11:14pm
125's have been gone for awhile not sure how you see this class as developmental? The 250f/450f times are almost identical.
Stewart, RC and other 125 riders posted almost identical and sometimes faster times on 125s, yet both needed those years to develop and RC even wished he'd taken another year to develop.

Same thing is still happening.
Ask Barcia and any of the others if they felt they needed those development years in the 250f class and all of them will tell you yes. Now lets take away how many riders get those development years by limiting the number of racers going to the line in SX each year? I can't see how people think that's smart.
Crush
Posts
21135
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney, AU
5/12/2013 11:21pm
Well assumably since you said riders, I'd say there is 4 on PC, 4 on Geico, 4 on Rockstar, 4 on Star and 2 on KTM... After that hopefully there are a few guys who are making cash, like Vince Friese... If you're good enough you're good enough. BUT if there was a national title, as Choppy said, there would be 2 on each of those big teams, KTM might have one! And then all their support staff go out the window, the 2 out of each of the 4 teams that don't make it then put something together themselves and Your mate's effort are even more fucked.

If they're not making money now... how do you propose that will improve with even less chance to get exposure or results in a combined class?

Do they fair better making money, getting results or getting exposure trekking their team all over the country to hicksville, bumfuckidaho for each national, which has much less than half the crowd attendance at each event of each SX?

You're talking about two different things and rolling the answer into a national title... which is so problematic it's not funny.
Choppy
Posts
1931
Joined
12/16/2012
Location
USA
5/12/2013 11:22pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2013 11:38pm
Crush wrote:
The 250 class is still a development class. It's still easier for a guy to try get the bucks together to do 7 races on one...
The 250 class is still a development class. It's still easier for a guy to try get the bucks together to do 7 races on one coast than 17 across the whole country...

And it's clear to see that there are less opportunities in the 450 class... Why do you think riders like Davalos, Sipes, Brown, Pingree, Ramsay, Johnson pretty much made careers out of the tiddler class... Because the opportunities there are exactly DOUBLE the big bike class...

I can't comprehend how this is even an issue. I could give two shits that K-Roc and Hahn both have titles. By the logic being presented here, there is no reason for Supercross and Motocross, just have one title.

While you're at it, Fuck MXGPs and the AMA circuit, EARTH-CROSS is where it's at... A globe trotting circuit where only the people with enough dollars can afford to race and the rest of you go home to work in mcdonalds... jerkies!
Who are these riders only riding 7 sx rounds making money? I know the owner of an east coast sx team (SMS Racing) and I'm pretty...
Who are these riders only riding 7 sx rounds making money? I know the owner of an east coast sx team (SMS Racing) and I'm pretty sure the rider is just getting a bike, not getting paid.

Not too mention here in TX some of the local pro races pay better than any sx purse, also comes with free entry. I'm just unclear on what riders you are talking about wont make money?
How much do you think Hahn made this year? Would he be on a 250f team if they were only taking two racers to the race or would it go to Tomac and Osbourne or one of the many others with more "potential?"

Post a reply to: 250 East West-keep them separate or not?

The Latest