time to put "Red-Cross Flag Gate" to bed?

CamP
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3/5/2013 8:50pm
Mr. Info wrote:
Let it go. The money in charge spoke. Monster Energy Supercross, Monster Energy Kawasaki. It's time you all realize money rules the sport in SX and...
Let it go. The money in charge spoke. Monster Energy Supercross, Monster Energy Kawasaki. It's time you all realize money rules the sport in SX and MX. The rules for the rich are different than those who have not. Its the nature of our country.
I'm beginning to think the money angle has some merit. A few years ago, the AMA was handing out 25 point penalties for something as harmless as trace amounts of lead in the fuel. Now we have them turning a blind eye to one of, if not, the most dangerous infractions on the race track, jumping on a red cross flag. The individuals calling the shots are either idiots, or influenced by title sponsor money, or both.
kongols
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3/5/2013 8:53pm
FreshTopEnd
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3/5/2013 9:35pm
First off...That red cross flag had no buisness being out! That rider was not laying on the track drooling in the dirt with his eyes rolled...
First off...That red cross flag had no buisness being out! That rider was not laying on the track drooling in the dirt with his eyes rolled back in his head! He was already on his bike and moving when they both came by. You guys that are supporting the crap about villo cheating or "needing to" are really just sore ass losers.
So every time James is about to be passed lets just throw out the red cross flag so no one can legally pass him! dont worry, Im sure James will get more help from his new buddy Allesi letting him by and then running blocker for him in the future.
Cool, the riders get to decide on the fly whether a red flag should be out and they can ignore it. That should work out great the next time there's a rider "lying on the track drooling in the dirt with his eyes rolled back in his head" and a rider in play knows if he respects the flag he's going to get screwed by someone who doesn't.

That's what it's about. Not about who's a fan of whom. Not about web site BS. It doesn't matter who did it. Anyone who wants to make this the test point for their fanboy credentials for any rider, whichever way that cuts, is an idiot.

RV's a great rider. He made a mistake, his second one of the same kind that night, and one he didn't even need to make given how on he was. He got a get out of jail card because the officials bailed and fell back on the notion that situation was confusing, which is pretty ridiculous.

Until the officials adapt the rules to remove all wiggle room and explain the rule and the definite consequences for a violation to the riders in terms a two year old can't claim confusion over, they've created a situation that rewards riders for pushing the envelope in safety situations to either gain advantage or keep from being screwed by another rider who is. And that's good for no one, including RV. That's what it's about.
AZ35
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3/5/2013 9:55pm
Cool, the riders get to decide on the fly whether a red flag should be out and they can ignore it. That should work out great...
Cool, the riders get to decide on the fly whether a red flag should be out and they can ignore it. That should work out great the next time there's a rider "lying on the track drooling in the dirt with his eyes rolled back in his head" and a rider in play knows if he respects the flag he's going to get screwed by someone who doesn't.

That's what it's about. Not about who's a fan of whom. Not about web site BS. It doesn't matter who did it. Anyone who wants to make this the test point for their fanboy credentials for any rider, whichever way that cuts, is an idiot.

RV's a great rider. He made a mistake, his second one of the same kind that night, and one he didn't even need to make given how on he was. He got a get out of jail card because the officials bailed and fell back on the notion that situation was confusing, which is pretty ridiculous.

Until the officials adapt the rules to remove all wiggle room and explain the rule and the definite consequences for a violation to the riders in terms a two year old can't claim confusion over, they've created a situation that rewards riders for pushing the envelope in safety situations to either gain advantage or keep from being screwed by another rider who is. And that's good for no one, including RV. That's what it's about.
What do you think you are, some kind of damn lawyer or something?

Oh wait.... Disregard that question.

It does not matter that you are, you still will never win in Vital MX Court.Wink

The Shop

kongols
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3/5/2013 10:04pm
kongols
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3/5/2013 10:05pm
3/5/2013 10:15pm Edited Date/Time 3/5/2013 10:17pm
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A look behind the scenes..
Hut
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3/5/2013 10:20pm
Cool, the riders get to decide on the fly whether a red flag should be out and they can ignore it. That should work out great...
Cool, the riders get to decide on the fly whether a red flag should be out and they can ignore it. That should work out great the next time there's a rider "lying on the track drooling in the dirt with his eyes rolled back in his head" and a rider in play knows if he respects the flag he's going to get screwed by someone who doesn't.

That's what it's about. Not about who's a fan of whom. Not about web site BS. It doesn't matter who did it. Anyone who wants to make this the test point for their fanboy credentials for any rider, whichever way that cuts, is an idiot.

RV's a great rider. He made a mistake, his second one of the same kind that night, and one he didn't even need to make given how on he was. He got a get out of jail card because the officials bailed and fell back on the notion that situation was confusing, which is pretty ridiculous.

Until the officials adapt the rules to remove all wiggle room and explain the rule and the definite consequences for a violation to the riders in terms a two year old can't claim confusion over, they've created a situation that rewards riders for pushing the envelope in safety situations to either gain advantage or keep from being screwed by another rider who is. And that's good for no one, including RV. That's what it's about.
I don't have anything to add to the topic. I just want to quote FTE because I couldn't agree more.Cool
The Rock
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3/5/2013 10:30pm Edited Date/Time 3/5/2013 10:46pm
CamP wrote:
I'm beginning to think the money angle has some merit. A few years ago, the AMA was handing out 25 point penalties for something as harmless...
I'm beginning to think the money angle has some merit. A few years ago, the AMA was handing out 25 point penalties for something as harmless as trace amounts of lead in the fuel. Now we have them turning a blind eye to one of, if not, the most dangerous infractions on the race track, jumping on a red cross flag. The individuals calling the shots are either idiots, or influenced by title sponsor money, or both.
I have had the pleasure of knowing both Kevin Crowther, AMA and John Gallagher, FIM for almost five years now. I can assure you they are neither idiots or influenced by sponsor money. They have years of experience and are both extremely passionate about their jobs. Additionally they're very reasonable people and my bet is they'll use this experience to improve the rulebook to remove some gray areas in the flagging department.

BTW if you ever have the opportunity for a track walk be sure to stay for the rider's meeting to hear John Gallagher speak. He couldn't be any clearer that if anyone has an issue with the track to come see him after the meeting to share their concerns.
CamP
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3/5/2013 10:44pm
CamP wrote:
I'm beginning to think the money angle has some merit. A few years ago, the AMA was handing out 25 point penalties for something as harmless...
I'm beginning to think the money angle has some merit. A few years ago, the AMA was handing out 25 point penalties for something as harmless as trace amounts of lead in the fuel. Now we have them turning a blind eye to one of, if not, the most dangerous infractions on the race track, jumping on a red cross flag. The individuals calling the shots are either idiots, or influenced by title sponsor money, or both.
The Rock wrote:
I have had the pleasure of knowing both Kevin Crowther, AMA and John Gallagher, FIM for almost five years now. I can assure you they are...
I have had the pleasure of knowing both Kevin Crowther, AMA and John Gallagher, FIM for almost five years now. I can assure you they are neither idiots or influenced by sponsor money. They have years of experience and are both extremely passionate about their jobs. Additionally they're very reasonable people and my bet is they'll use this experience to improve the rulebook to remove some gray areas in the flagging department.

BTW if you ever have the opportunity for a track walk be sure to stay for the rider's meeting to hear John Gallagher speak. He couldn't be any clearer that if anyone has an issue with the track to come see him after the meeting to share their concerns.
Allowing a rider that jumped on one red cross flag and passed on another to leave an event with 25 points is idiotic. It sets a precedent that safety is secondary. Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings.
FIREfish148
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3/6/2013 1:37am
CamP wrote:
I'm beginning to think the money angle has some merit. A few years ago, the AMA was handing out 25 point penalties for something as harmless...
I'm beginning to think the money angle has some merit. A few years ago, the AMA was handing out 25 point penalties for something as harmless as trace amounts of lead in the fuel. Now we have them turning a blind eye to one of, if not, the most dangerous infractions on the race track, jumping on a red cross flag. The individuals calling the shots are either idiots, or influenced by title sponsor money, or both.
The Rock wrote:
I have had the pleasure of knowing both Kevin Crowther, AMA and John Gallagher, FIM for almost five years now. I can assure you they are...
I have had the pleasure of knowing both Kevin Crowther, AMA and John Gallagher, FIM for almost five years now. I can assure you they are neither idiots or influenced by sponsor money. They have years of experience and are both extremely passionate about their jobs. Additionally they're very reasonable people and my bet is they'll use this experience to improve the rulebook to remove some gray areas in the flagging department.

BTW if you ever have the opportunity for a track walk be sure to stay for the rider's meeting to hear John Gallagher speak. He couldn't be any clearer that if anyone has an issue with the track to come see him after the meeting to share their concerns.
CamP wrote:
Allowing a rider that jumped on one red cross flag and passed on another to leave an event with 25 points is idiotic. It sets a...
Allowing a rider that jumped on one red cross flag and passed on another to leave an event with 25 points is idiotic. It sets a precedent that safety is secondary. Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings.
True that CamP. It's pretty bullshit how things went. It would have been supreme bullshit if they would have actually made the riders start behind the gate though... Which they almost did from the looks of it.

All I know is bubba had that race in the bag till the red flag flew.
3/6/2013 6:44am
CamP wrote:
I'm beginning to think the money angle has some merit. A few years ago, the AMA was handing out 25 point penalties for something as harmless...
I'm beginning to think the money angle has some merit. A few years ago, the AMA was handing out 25 point penalties for something as harmless as trace amounts of lead in the fuel. Now we have them turning a blind eye to one of, if not, the most dangerous infractions on the race track, jumping on a red cross flag. The individuals calling the shots are either idiots, or influenced by title sponsor money, or both.
The Rock wrote:
I have had the pleasure of knowing both Kevin Crowther, AMA and John Gallagher, FIM for almost five years now. I can assure you they are...
I have had the pleasure of knowing both Kevin Crowther, AMA and John Gallagher, FIM for almost five years now. I can assure you they are neither idiots or influenced by sponsor money. They have years of experience and are both extremely passionate about their jobs. Additionally they're very reasonable people and my bet is they'll use this experience to improve the rulebook to remove some gray areas in the flagging department.

BTW if you ever have the opportunity for a track walk be sure to stay for the rider's meeting to hear John Gallagher speak. He couldn't be any clearer that if anyone has an issue with the track to come see him after the meeting to share their concerns.
He couldn't be any clearer that if anyone has an issue with the track to come see him after the meeting to share their concerns.

Haven't some top guys in the past complained about the track, and nothing got done??

Exactly what you said is what is wrong with the industry. You know Kevin and John, and right there to tell us all how great they are. They fucked this one up, just own it and move on. RV talked someone into something letting him do something he shouldn't of been allowed to do. Take your friendship out of it, see it for what it is. I'm not saying either are idiots, but they clearly blew it on this one.

Or you can look at it this way, we can go with what you say because you know them, or we can go with what some of the riders think about the AMA.

Think I'm about done with this one..
The Rock
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3/6/2013 9:54am
CamP wrote:
I'm beginning to think the money angle has some merit. A few years ago, the AMA was handing out 25 point penalties for something as harmless...
I'm beginning to think the money angle has some merit. A few years ago, the AMA was handing out 25 point penalties for something as harmless as trace amounts of lead in the fuel. Now we have them turning a blind eye to one of, if not, the most dangerous infractions on the race track, jumping on a red cross flag. The individuals calling the shots are either idiots, or influenced by title sponsor money, or both.
The Rock wrote:
I have had the pleasure of knowing both Kevin Crowther, AMA and John Gallagher, FIM for almost five years now. I can assure you they are...
I have had the pleasure of knowing both Kevin Crowther, AMA and John Gallagher, FIM for almost five years now. I can assure you they are neither idiots or influenced by sponsor money. They have years of experience and are both extremely passionate about their jobs. Additionally they're very reasonable people and my bet is they'll use this experience to improve the rulebook to remove some gray areas in the flagging department.

BTW if you ever have the opportunity for a track walk be sure to stay for the rider's meeting to hear John Gallagher speak. He couldn't be any clearer that if anyone has an issue with the track to come see him after the meeting to share their concerns.
[b]He couldn't be any clearer that if anyone has an issue with the track to come see him after the meeting to share their concerns.[/b] Haven't...
He couldn't be any clearer that if anyone has an issue with the track to come see him after the meeting to share their concerns.

Haven't some top guys in the past complained about the track, and nothing got done??

Exactly what you said is what is wrong with the industry. You know Kevin and John, and right there to tell us all how great they are. They fucked this one up, just own it and move on. RV talked someone into something letting him do something he shouldn't of been allowed to do. Take your friendship out of it, see it for what it is. I'm not saying either are idiots, but they clearly blew it on this one.

Or you can look at it this way, we can go with what you say because you know them, or we can go with what some of the riders think about the AMA.

Think I'm about done with this one..
I can assure you they are neither idiots or influenced by sponsor money. They have years of experience and are both extremely passionate about their jobs

Please take this at face value without taking liberties with what I wrote. I didn't agree with what CamP was implying and is why I posted. Also regardless of if I agree or disagree with what happened in St. Louis it doesn't affect the respect I have for Kevin Crowther and John Gallgher.

On the track changes subject, riders have a lot better chance of having track changes made if they don't wait until the night show to share their concerns.

BTW for sake of argument if RV would have had the victory taken away from him and been recorded with a 4th place finish and points do you think the keyboard warriors would have applauded that decision?
3/6/2013 10:18am Edited Date/Time 3/6/2013 10:23am
Okay, I'm going to point out the elephant in the room. Weston Peick was on the track. When in flight mode and consumed by sheer terror, flags are not a priority.
FreshTopEnd
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3/6/2013 10:30am
Why people can't accept that honorable people are fallible, and that people can act honorably even if mistaken in a given situation despite their good faith efforts?
TDeath21
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3/6/2013 10:36am Edited Date/Time 3/6/2013 10:37am
Although you had to be there to see it, Kiniry was actually down laying in the dirt for a long time. I think it was just something like the wind knocked out of him. After laying there awhile, he went and got back on his bike. He got back on his bike about the same time the leaders were rolling the triple. So for those of you saying the red cross flag shouldn't have been out, you're wrong. Just thought I'd clear that up since it wasn't shown on the broadcast.

Anyways, if Villopoto wins this championship, I just hope it's by more than 7 points so this whole controversial ordeal will be irrelevant.
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3/6/2013 10:48am
"Anyways, if Villopoto wins this championship, I just hope it's by more than 7 points so this whole controversial ordeal will be irrelevant."

I'm with you. And, really, at this point, Millsaps and Dungey need to be beating him and not letting the four other spoilers (Stewart, Barcia, Reed, and still I think Canard) get in front of them.
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3/6/2013 10:59am
Of course. But every official in every sport makes mistakes. And I am totally on board with the notion that the worst response to a mistake is to perpetuate it by not acknowledging it (I wish they would have said we don't expect our riders to do what RV did, and then let people complaint about what penalty they did or didn't impose because of the circumstances). But the leap from made a mistake to corrupt or incompetent is not warranted by every mistake.

I'm pretty sure everyone involved, except maybe RV now that it's past, would like a do-over on both incidents. Let's see what they learn from this in terms of filling in the (supposedly) gray areas. That's all they can do at this point to redeem the situation.
kongols
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3/6/2013 11:11am
Of course. But every official in every sport makes mistakes. And I am totally on board with the notion that the worst response to a mistake...
Of course. But every official in every sport makes mistakes. And I am totally on board with the notion that the worst response to a mistake is to perpetuate it by not acknowledging it (I wish they would have said we don't expect our riders to do what RV did, and then let people complaint about what penalty they did or didn't impose because of the circumstances). But the leap from made a mistake to corrupt or incompetent is not warranted by every mistake.

I'm pretty sure everyone involved, except maybe RV now that it's past, would like a do-over on both incidents. Let's see what they learn from this in terms of filling in the (supposedly) gray areas. That's all they can do at this point to redeem the situation.
The same rider doing it multiple times and getting away without even warning is suspicious to say the least.
And then there was a whole finish line fiasco when a rider who won per transponder got his spot taken away because of visual evidence(or something like that).
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3/6/2013 11:33am
Oh please.
kongols
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3/6/2013 11:36am Edited Date/Time 3/6/2013 11:38am
Oh please.
Remember this fiasco? Transponder said that #54 won and yet AMA officials had such an eagle vision that they saw #617 winning and gave a higher position to him even when electronics clearly said #54 won.



pilotdude
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3/6/2013 11:39am
Mr. Info
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3/6/2013 11:40am
Sorry Rock we are friends but if you think Monster can't tell Feld what they want done or Feld can't tell FIM or AMA what to do you living under a Rock. I did not mean to do that. They have in the past and will continue to do so. I know John and Kevin and they wear headsets that go to Fled. Feld runs the show. In my opinion
FreshTopEnd
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3/6/2013 11:41am Edited Date/Time 3/6/2013 11:44am
Do you remember the explanation Kongols? Have you read the rules?
kongols
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3/6/2013 11:43am
Do you remember the explanation Kongols? Have you read the rules?
Did you see explanation on yellow flags?
pilotdude
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3/6/2013 11:43am
kongols
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3/6/2013 11:46am Edited Date/Time 3/6/2013 11:48am
It`s all good, I`m sure they are good people. Everyone want`s to live good and have a steady paycheck. Especially in a economy like this.
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3/6/2013 11:48am
pilotdude wrote:
[IMG]http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/Holladay80/BlackHelicopters.jpg[/IMG]
Haw, what's funny is that I looked out my office window yesterday, while spending way too much time on this board, and there were six Blackhawks in formation flying low level close by (as it turns out, an Air Guard med unit doing a flyover of the Capitol on their way out from Mather to Iraq via a layover in Texas).

A nice departure from the flock of vultures that usually circle outside my window, out of professional courtesy I suppose.
FreshTopEnd
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3/6/2013 11:52am
kongols wrote:
It`s all good, I`m sure they are good people. Everyone want`s to live good and have a steady paycheck. Especially in a economy like this.
Well did you? Did you read the rule that says how they score races before you says its suspicious how they did it? Because it's not all good when accusations like that are thrown around out of ignorance.
kongols
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3/6/2013 12:08pm
kongols wrote:
It`s all good, I`m sure they are good people. Everyone want`s to live good and have a steady paycheck. Especially in a economy like this.
Well did you? Did you read the rule that says how they score races before you says its suspicious how they did it? Because it's not...
Well did you? Did you read the rule that says how they score races before you says its suspicious how they did it? Because it's not all good when accusations like that are thrown around out of ignorance.
You mean where they said that finish line is somewhere between last corner and a jump and not where the transponder cable and a finish flag is? Yeah I heard that bullshit. I also remember who was a co sponsor of the series.

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