Started with Muscle Milk and went full Paleo

gsxrcr28
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gsxrcr28 2/1/2013 7:17pm
2/1/2013 7:17pm
I drink two of the small bottles a day, and I definitely know its "Frankenfood"

I have rolled the dice on so much shit in my life, I'm pretty sure this is the least of my concerns. Laughing

That being said I train 6 days a week 90 minutes a day so I'm probably over training too Woohoo
leakypipe23 2/1/2013 11:03pm
2/1/2013 11:03pm
Since we agree about the role grains/carbs play in fat loss, I asked Robb Wolf what he thought about the severely low carb diets you advocate for athletes. He directed me to a blog he recently posted about that topic

Low Carb and Athletic Performance.

Several folks, both on my blog and elsewhere, asked if I was aware of the book the Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance by Volek and Phinney. The short answer is “yes, I am familiar with it.” I like it, and think it’s a valuable resource. The longer answer is I have been following the work of folks like Phinney, Volek, Veech, Mujerkie, and Seyfried for more than 10 years (all researchers in the ketosis/intermittent fasting realm…I have communicated with most of them personally, conducted an interview with Prof. Seyfrid several years ago). By familiar I mean “reading the primary literature, pondering and tinkering.” Although I am not earlobe deep in the academic scene any longer, I do not tip my hat to too many people with regards to an understanding of integrated fuel metabolism. That’s a round-about way of saying I “think” I know my stuff reasonably well. I have personally tinkered with a ketogenic approach, cyclic ketogenic, basic low-carb etc. As I mentioned in part 1, I found all of these options to be more or less up to the task of fueling some weight training, gymnastics and a bit of sprinting. But I have not found them up to snuff when we add in significant glycolytic based work like CrossFit, MMA, Brazilian jiu-jitsu etc.

A few notables who have also tinkered with high intensity training+ LC who also found it inadequate to these demands: Mat Lalonde and John Welbourn.

I have tinkered with many, many clients and found the same results: as we push into the glycolytic pathway (think 800m sprints or a wrestling match) the wheels fall off the wagon if we have inadequate glycogen storage, as we simply cannot, under any adaptation scheme, produce that low-end torque from the beta-oxidation of fats, nor by utilizing ketones. I wish we could, but we can’t. Wishing this is not so is akin to The Secret…you can wish all you want for that Red Bicycle, but wishing does not make an impossibility a reality. Please read ALL of this paper from the Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism (of which I’ve functioned as a review editor at various points…)

Take away?

1-It takes several weeks at the minimum to adapt to a ketogenic diet.

2-Aerobic capacity is the same on a ketogenic or mixed diet (no better, no worse).

3-Anaeroblic power output from the glycolytic pathway is crushed by a ketogenic protocol.

Peter Attia has done some great self experiments and has largely confirmed the findings in the Nutrition and Metabolism piece. He has found the need to add in peri-workout carbs to get that low-gear. Great self-tinkering and not surprising.

A number of folks just dismissed what I had to say on this, assuming I had no familiarity with the Phinney/Volek work, that I was “out to lunch” on the topic. That’s certainly your right if you are in that camp, but you are a boner for making that assumption. Instead of making assumptions folks might have asked me “Hey Robb, do you ever see an argument for a LC intervention while training?” to which I’d say, “Sure, when we are in the aerobic base building phase for an endurance athlete, I can make an argument for going pretty LC, perhaps even ketogenic to improve the totality of fat mobilization for fueling. But, that will be a specific block of training and then I will shift macros and training to bring up the anaerobic engine, then taper to prepare for completion.”

I do not normally toot my own horn, but the commentary about me surrounding this piece was nasty enough that a little GFY is in order for a few folks. I am always game for looking at facts and debating, but if the best a person has is a Straw Man attack on me…C’mon.

In my coaching career I have:

Sent several people to age group world championships in triathlon with top 5 placing.

Coached a top 3 affiliate team, and top 6 and 17th individual CrossFit games finishers while consulting with a “lot” of top 10 finishers whom I helped with chow and training.

Consulted with several UFC notables.

Coached an IFC Light Weight World Champion

Worked extensively with a world champion/Olympic caliber rower

Coached a North American MotoCross champ

Spent the past three years working as a consultant to the Naval Special Warfare Resiliency program.

None of the aforementioned folks operated on a LC program. Or they would have failed. It is perhaps worth mentioning that the whole impetus for this piece was an email I received from a top level CrossFit games competitor who had been tinkering with a ketogenic diet for three months. She was doing “everything right” from the ketogenic perspective (in a raging state of ketosis as evidenced by urine ketostrips), but her performance had tanked in every measurable parameter, from strength to met-con performance, AND she was starting to feel depressed and lethargic. She did not need more time to “adapt” to ketosis. She either needed to decide to retire as a professional athlete OR she needed to get the hell out of Ketosis-Ville. Two weeks of carb reintroduction and she is back to her previous PR’s. Some of the push-back I have seen from the Low-Carb-Jihadists reminds me of my time in Vegan Land when, despite my inability to gain weight from horrible GI problems, I was told I just needed to ride things out a few more years and I’d adapt and become some kind of Transcendant Being. One might describe religious type dogma as “That thinking which prevents the individual for seeing reality for what it is.” If the insistence on the part of the Low Carb Jihadists (LCJ) that there is a way to fuel high intensity performance sans-carbs dose not fit the bill here, I do not know what does.

I normally do not talk much about my work with athletes. You will not find pages of testimonials about all this on the blog, as I’ve tried to keep my focus on these silly issues of people dying, and our economy imploding from healthcare costs that are out of control. But perhaps focusing on the sick and dying has allowed some folks to delude themselves that I have no experience in the performance athletics scene. That assumption would be…well, “wrong.” I think what buggars some of the LCJ that were getting feisty about all this is that I actually know when a low carb intervention is and is not appropriate, instead of Jerking-Off to a bunch of opinions. For a number of years I lived or starved based on the results I got with my clients who “paid me” for results. I know, it’s not a randomized controlled trial, but somehow I think my experience might carry some weight. For the keyboard warriors who want to poo-poo this, here are your criteria:

1-Show me studies that disprove that we need carbs for high output glycolytic work.

2-Show me a coaching resume that trumps mine that utilizes a LC approach.

If you have some specific question in all this I am game, but please be more intelligent/classy than to try to Straw Man me. I’ve laid out the rules of engagement. Engage or get buggared. And if you are an athlete and want to tinker with LC or Ketosis, give it a whirl if you are an endurance athlete, but please keep in mind my hypothetical above (use it for a specific training block). And if you are a largely glycogen driven athlete I just don’t recommend LC for you. Caveat Emptor.
Fearo
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Fearo 2/2/2013 1:22am
2/2/2013 1:22am Edited Date/Time 2/2/2013 1:23am
leakypipe23 wrote:
Since we agree about the role grains/carbs play in fat loss, I asked Robb Wolf what he thought about the severely low carb diets you advocate...
Since we agree about the role grains/carbs play in fat loss, I asked Robb Wolf what he thought about the severely low carb diets you advocate for athletes. He directed me to a blog he recently posted about that topic

Low Carb and Athletic Performance.

Several folks, both on my blog and elsewhere, asked if I was aware of the book the Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance by Volek and Phinney. The short answer is “yes, I am familiar with it.” I like it, and think it’s a valuable resource. The longer answer is I have been following the work of folks like Phinney, Volek, Veech, Mujerkie, and Seyfried for more than 10 years (all researchers in the ketosis/intermittent fasting realm…I have communicated with most of them personally, conducted an interview with Prof. Seyfrid several years ago). By familiar I mean “reading the primary literature, pondering and tinkering.” Although I am not earlobe deep in the academic scene any longer, I do not tip my hat to too many people with regards to an understanding of integrated fuel metabolism. That’s a round-about way of saying I “think” I know my stuff reasonably well. I have personally tinkered with a ketogenic approach, cyclic ketogenic, basic low-carb etc. As I mentioned in part 1, I found all of these options to be more or less up to the task of fueling some weight training, gymnastics and a bit of sprinting. But I have not found them up to snuff when we add in significant glycolytic based work like CrossFit, MMA, Brazilian jiu-jitsu etc.

A few notables who have also tinkered with high intensity training+ LC who also found it inadequate to these demands: Mat Lalonde and John Welbourn.

I have tinkered with many, many clients and found the same results: as we push into the glycolytic pathway (think 800m sprints or a wrestling match) the wheels fall off the wagon if we have inadequate glycogen storage, as we simply cannot, under any adaptation scheme, produce that low-end torque from the beta-oxidation of fats, nor by utilizing ketones. I wish we could, but we can’t. Wishing this is not so is akin to The Secret…you can wish all you want for that Red Bicycle, but wishing does not make an impossibility a reality. Please read ALL of this paper from the Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism (of which I’ve functioned as a review editor at various points…)

Take away?

1-It takes several weeks at the minimum to adapt to a ketogenic diet.

2-Aerobic capacity is the same on a ketogenic or mixed diet (no better, no worse).

3-Anaeroblic power output from the glycolytic pathway is crushed by a ketogenic protocol.

Peter Attia has done some great self experiments and has largely confirmed the findings in the Nutrition and Metabolism piece. He has found the need to add in peri-workout carbs to get that low-gear. Great self-tinkering and not surprising.

A number of folks just dismissed what I had to say on this, assuming I had no familiarity with the Phinney/Volek work, that I was “out to lunch” on the topic. That’s certainly your right if you are in that camp, but you are a boner for making that assumption. Instead of making assumptions folks might have asked me “Hey Robb, do you ever see an argument for a LC intervention while training?” to which I’d say, “Sure, when we are in the aerobic base building phase for an endurance athlete, I can make an argument for going pretty LC, perhaps even ketogenic to improve the totality of fat mobilization for fueling. But, that will be a specific block of training and then I will shift macros and training to bring up the anaerobic engine, then taper to prepare for completion.”

I do not normally toot my own horn, but the commentary about me surrounding this piece was nasty enough that a little GFY is in order for a few folks. I am always game for looking at facts and debating, but if the best a person has is a Straw Man attack on me…C’mon.

In my coaching career I have:

Sent several people to age group world championships in triathlon with top 5 placing.

Coached a top 3 affiliate team, and top 6 and 17th individual CrossFit games finishers while consulting with a “lot” of top 10 finishers whom I helped with chow and training.

Consulted with several UFC notables.

Coached an IFC Light Weight World Champion

Worked extensively with a world champion/Olympic caliber rower

Coached a North American MotoCross champ

Spent the past three years working as a consultant to the Naval Special Warfare Resiliency program.

None of the aforementioned folks operated on a LC program. Or they would have failed. It is perhaps worth mentioning that the whole impetus for this piece was an email I received from a top level CrossFit games competitor who had been tinkering with a ketogenic diet for three months. She was doing “everything right” from the ketogenic perspective (in a raging state of ketosis as evidenced by urine ketostrips), but her performance had tanked in every measurable parameter, from strength to met-con performance, AND she was starting to feel depressed and lethargic. She did not need more time to “adapt” to ketosis. She either needed to decide to retire as a professional athlete OR she needed to get the hell out of Ketosis-Ville. Two weeks of carb reintroduction and she is back to her previous PR’s. Some of the push-back I have seen from the Low-Carb-Jihadists reminds me of my time in Vegan Land when, despite my inability to gain weight from horrible GI problems, I was told I just needed to ride things out a few more years and I’d adapt and become some kind of Transcendant Being. One might describe religious type dogma as “That thinking which prevents the individual for seeing reality for what it is.” If the insistence on the part of the Low Carb Jihadists (LCJ) that there is a way to fuel high intensity performance sans-carbs dose not fit the bill here, I do not know what does.

I normally do not talk much about my work with athletes. You will not find pages of testimonials about all this on the blog, as I’ve tried to keep my focus on these silly issues of people dying, and our economy imploding from healthcare costs that are out of control. But perhaps focusing on the sick and dying has allowed some folks to delude themselves that I have no experience in the performance athletics scene. That assumption would be…well, “wrong.” I think what buggars some of the LCJ that were getting feisty about all this is that I actually know when a low carb intervention is and is not appropriate, instead of Jerking-Off to a bunch of opinions. For a number of years I lived or starved based on the results I got with my clients who “paid me” for results. I know, it’s not a randomized controlled trial, but somehow I think my experience might carry some weight. For the keyboard warriors who want to poo-poo this, here are your criteria:

1-Show me studies that disprove that we need carbs for high output glycolytic work.

2-Show me a coaching resume that trumps mine that utilizes a LC approach.

If you have some specific question in all this I am game, but please be more intelligent/classy than to try to Straw Man me. I’ve laid out the rules of engagement. Engage or get buggared. And if you are an athlete and want to tinker with LC or Ketosis, give it a whirl if you are an endurance athlete, but please keep in mind my hypothetical above (use it for a specific training block). And if you are a largely glycogen driven athlete I just don’t recommend LC for you. Caveat Emptor.
Finally, someone with a brain, and the credentials to back it up.

TFS
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TFS 2/2/2013 3:43am
2/2/2013 3:43am
Leaky, you should explain who Wolf is if you want to use his view as gospel! He wrote The Paleo Solution and can be found speaking at Paleo conferences, along with people like Phinney or Volek. He's addressing an ongoing debate in Paleo, one of many.

I don't care how many carbs people think they need when competing. I mentioned the Phinney and Volek book because they are good at something. I bought it for my brother who is a weekend cyclist, and he quickly lost 25 lb and felt better. If he becomes an elite cyclist and needs more to finish events, fine. At least he knows how to not be like the others and kill himself training by burning sugar all the time.

High output glcolytic work as he puts it is not Paleo. Paleo gurus like Wolf are on their own because nature gives no clues that caveman trained for hunting and gathering with the effort that elite athletes today put into their shit. Since we are omnivores and have the ability to burn carbs or fat, this must be for a reason.

All I care to get across on carbs is the fact that carbs are a non essential macronutrient, and fat is not. Go truly fat free, you will get sick. All these people saying you "must" have carbs even to sit on your ass are just repeating dogma. For elite athletic output, do what works for you as a clever omnivore.

BTW-I know you are just posting to be contrary, always did. You didn't slow down to check out Phinney and Voleks view on the type of output Wolf Writes about. Phinney and Volek themselves say their approach is hardly conclusive and applicable to endurance elites as well. They know it too. That doesn't mean you or I will ever get to that level where it matters.

Why does it matter? I think the real people out there that ride on weekends and train a bit would find some good things about training keto, and carbing to make up the difference, as opposed to carb burning all the time. If you are preparing to chase Herlings around a sand track WFO all day, fuckit, go sneak over to his pits and see what the fuck he's eating, and copy it. Smile

RC in KX days was at a pretty elite level I would say, but he surprised everyone at the USO one time when he slimmed down and showed up cut. Last weekend he told Tyler Bowers and I that all he did was quit drinking Gatorade (carbs). Go ahead and spin that one.

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TFS
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TFS 2/2/2013 5:21am
2/2/2013 5:21am
We pause this interesting, challenging, and productive topic for a bit of gossip-type observations about Paleo online that you might find mildy worth reading:

As you figured out and may be reading already (some are on the same sites, I can tell), low carb has taken a beating and Paleo is in. The problem is not everyone in Paleo cared for low carb in the first place because hey had no history of weight problems. I blog this and call he latter "Paleo Robustos." Robustos get bored with minimum carb levels, the insulin hypothesis (Taubes), and people like Jimmy Moore, who we will get to.

Most of the established Paleo bloggers write at least one book, then hang out and gather followers, kinda like Fresh Dirt vs Motonews vs Motodrive. It's real time and gets heated. Instead of last weekend's racing and gossip, it's who says what about do calories matter or whatever and off it goes. The topics are often just for Robustos and not people looking for a new way to "do Atkins." All of them do have advice for losing weight though, and it all sounds like Atkins!

Wolf for example is a Robusto and a research geek, and he would be good at picking apart the important question of should you eat red beans because there is an enzyme in them that isn't converted into something in the gut, which causes something else, which sets off a chain reaction, and you go into metabolic shutdown..and all his readers are mesmerized.
Just don't ask him why people get fat. He hasn't been there or done that.

Enter Jimmy Moore, who in a sick way might remind you of someone.. Moore was a 400 lb wreck, found Atkins, dropped it and felt like a million bucks, wrote an inspirational book, then goes off with a series of websites, and does like 500 webcasts with everyone he can find about it. He's likeable and schmoozes with every author and guru that will talk to him, and he makes his way to all the Paleo gurus as well.

The problem was Moore's shit quit working and his weight went back up over 300. Now he's a low carb guru that can't make it work. His former webcasts guests are offering advice. He's seeing drs and looking harder. It sucks, but he's open about it and it's everyone's puzzle now. What is it we are all missing and need to know? That kinda thing.

Moore ends up with the newest Phinney and Volek book about LC performance. He goes to the gym more and cranks up what P and V call "Nutritional Ketosis," or "NK." He measures all kinds of shit and posts charts and graphs, and in a few months he is a new man, again. NK is the shit, whatever that is. Look what it did for our man Jimmy.

Now the busy webcaster has a happy new topic for webcasts, the great benefits of NK, which turns out to be LC with a Paleo tweak. What's that? More real food, grass fed beef, pastured.... etc etc... The LC blogger that looked like the fat goofy failure just turned shit around by going Paleo. The others don't like it. That's whats going on.

Moore raised P and V up a notch by giving them a lot of attention so the others feel a need to respond immediately. MT vs FD, vs MD. Which guru do you want, which book will you buy...

It's funny how opinions on something so basic as "What is the best way to eat for me?" play out online just like FD vs MT, vs MD...

Again, pick the guru that is most like you. No one has all the answers, so going with someone like yourself is just a strategy. I ignore them all usually but Moore and I hang out on his forum. I like to watch him struggle back because he is like me and I might learn something.
str8shooter 2/2/2013 5:58am
2/2/2013 5:58am
TFS,
I have to tell ya man I admire your conviction and passion on this subject. reading this whole thread (or should I say book) has definately got me thinking about how I can apply this plan to my own life. Now that Im getting older (42) I once in a while find my body rejecting "plastic food" now. I just cringe when my wife comes home with groceries these days and see anything rosted, toasted or fried but some how I just shut my ass and play along like a compliant good husband that HATES grocerie shopping!!!
Anyhow........I dont race moto anymore but I still ride my own track about 2 to 3 days a week and practice/train like I still do. last year I tried to pattern WHAT I was eating a little more around my rides and some times what I would eat after a hard ride would make me almost feel like I had the flu and it would absolutely wreck the whole next day. BUT....now after reading what you said about Gatoraid in your recent post makes me wonder if it wasnt what I was drinking. ? Because I actually do drink alot of it on ride days sometimes.
Outsider
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Outsider 2/2/2013 6:06am
2/2/2013 6:06am
Fearo wrote:
Finally, someone with a brain, and the credentials to back it up. [img]http://jemblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/the_rock_clap_clap_gif.gif[/img]
Finally, someone with a brain, and the credentials to back it up.

You mean Robb Wolf? Smile

TFS
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TFS 2/2/2013 7:01am
2/2/2013 7:01am
str8shooter wrote:
TFS, I have to tell ya man I admire your conviction and passion on this subject. reading this whole thread (or should I say book) has...
TFS,
I have to tell ya man I admire your conviction and passion on this subject. reading this whole thread (or should I say book) has definately got me thinking about how I can apply this plan to my own life. Now that Im getting older (42) I once in a while find my body rejecting "plastic food" now. I just cringe when my wife comes home with groceries these days and see anything rosted, toasted or fried but some how I just shut my ass and play along like a compliant good husband that HATES grocerie shopping!!!
Anyhow........I dont race moto anymore but I still ride my own track about 2 to 3 days a week and practice/train like I still do. last year I tried to pattern WHAT I was eating a little more around my rides and some times what I would eat after a hard ride would make me almost feel like I had the flu and it would absolutely wreck the whole next day. BUT....now after reading what you said about Gatoraid in your recent post makes me wonder if it wasnt what I was drinking. ? Because I actually do drink alot of it on ride days sometimes.
Thanks.. Smile

There is even a sub Robusto group that goes with JERF...Just eat real food (dummy). They just avoid everything in a can or box.

Based on what you said, I can't say anything that Sisson doesn't say better. His version is less dogmatic and more fun than hard core Paleo. He would say 1: get rid of sugar, 2: dont eat grains... Getting rid of sugar includes Gatorade of course, carb loading, and juice. Don't stress it and follow an 80/20 rule...and don't forget to Party... Gluten (wheat) will give you IBS, not good for moto. I saw SX on TV a couple seasons ago and the announcer said that RV had "solved" a rare stomach problem by cutting out wheat...Weirdest thing. Very rare. Huh. One in a million I guess huh? Smile

As far as the grocery store, don't get pre-fried anything or pre-cooked the shit they do to it ruins it... Get fresh stuff and cook it. Read up on healthy oils vs shit. A lot of bad shit creeps into everything, even that big mixed nuts can you thought was healthy is swimming in nasty oil you don't want-same for most peanut butter. Its like looking for traps to avoid.

I took my mom to a grocery store for a "buy this, not that" tour one Christmas, and by April she lost 30 lb and was thrilled. She works at Weight Watchers too so it was a bit strange. Their shit wasn't working and she couldn't tell them what did work.
str8shooter 2/2/2013 7:46am
2/2/2013 7:46am
As far as needing to lose weight I dont believe I fit into that catagory to much but I do know a few of the "soft" lbs I carry could go away. What Im more worried about is my colesterol and that type of thing. Im always right on the border of "good" and "high" with it.
And yeah I know theres alot of chemicals in most of our foods....... though I personally have not researched any farther than seeing the doctor shows on TV. I think more than anything we have fallen victim to the conveinence of pre made shit foods and quite frankly for MYSELF and Im sure may others this is a very hard hard cycle to break.

Did your grocerie bill go up significantly when you switched to the paleo plan?
leakypipe23 2/2/2013 9:02am
2/2/2013 9:02am
"You are just posting to be contrary" and "your expert doesn't know what he is talking about"

LOL


Steve- How come you never mention the pills that made you lose the vast majority of your weight?
PaleBlue
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PaleBlue 2/2/2013 9:20am
2/2/2013 9:20am
str8shooter wrote:
TFS, I have to tell ya man I admire your conviction and passion on this subject. reading this whole thread (or should I say book) has...
TFS,
I have to tell ya man I admire your conviction and passion on this subject. reading this whole thread (or should I say book) has definately got me thinking about how I can apply this plan to my own life. Now that Im getting older (42) I once in a while find my body rejecting "plastic food" now. I just cringe when my wife comes home with groceries these days and see anything rosted, toasted or fried but some how I just shut my ass and play along like a compliant good husband that HATES grocerie shopping!!!
Anyhow........I dont race moto anymore but I still ride my own track about 2 to 3 days a week and practice/train like I still do. last year I tried to pattern WHAT I was eating a little more around my rides and some times what I would eat after a hard ride would make me almost feel like I had the flu and it would absolutely wreck the whole next day. BUT....now after reading what you said about Gatoraid in your recent post makes me wonder if it wasnt what I was drinking. ? Because I actually do drink alot of it on ride days sometimes.
TFS wrote:
Thanks.. :) There is even a sub Robusto group that goes with JERF...Just eat real food (dummy). They just avoid everything in a can or box...
Thanks.. Smile

There is even a sub Robusto group that goes with JERF...Just eat real food (dummy). They just avoid everything in a can or box.

Based on what you said, I can't say anything that Sisson doesn't say better. His version is less dogmatic and more fun than hard core Paleo. He would say 1: get rid of sugar, 2: dont eat grains... Getting rid of sugar includes Gatorade of course, carb loading, and juice. Don't stress it and follow an 80/20 rule...and don't forget to Party... Gluten (wheat) will give you IBS, not good for moto. I saw SX on TV a couple seasons ago and the announcer said that RV had "solved" a rare stomach problem by cutting out wheat...Weirdest thing. Very rare. Huh. One in a million I guess huh? Smile

As far as the grocery store, don't get pre-fried anything or pre-cooked the shit they do to it ruins it... Get fresh stuff and cook it. Read up on healthy oils vs shit. A lot of bad shit creeps into everything, even that big mixed nuts can you thought was healthy is swimming in nasty oil you don't want-same for most peanut butter. Its like looking for traps to avoid.

I took my mom to a grocery store for a "buy this, not that" tour one Christmas, and by April she lost 30 lb and was thrilled. She works at Weight Watchers too so it was a bit strange. Their shit wasn't working and she couldn't tell them what did work.
Weight Watchers and the diet industry as a whole is a multi BILLION dollar industry. It's not remotely in their interests for significant numbers of people to achieve success. Faced with lifestyle changes that do work, Paleo, Aitkins, Hay system etc... it's not suprising in the least that 'scientists' will pop-up all over the place to rubbish these 'fad' ways of eating. Whilst not true across the board, there are no shortage of science whores who will 'prove' anything the money men want.

Use some common sense, cook your own food, from scratch, using quality ingredients. Not only will you enjoy the food more but you'll feel better in every way. Anybody can cook well, it just takes practice..............
TFS
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TFS 2/2/2013 9:39am
2/2/2013 9:39am
str8shooter wrote:
As far as needing to lose weight I dont believe I fit into that catagory to much but I do know a few of the "soft"...
As far as needing to lose weight I dont believe I fit into that catagory to much but I do know a few of the "soft" lbs I carry could go away. What Im more worried about is my colesterol and that type of thing. Im always right on the border of "good" and "high" with it.
And yeah I know theres alot of chemicals in most of our foods....... though I personally have not researched any farther than seeing the doctor shows on TV. I think more than anything we have fallen victim to the conveinence of pre made shit foods and quite frankly for MYSELF and Im sure may others this is a very hard hard cycle to break.

Did your grocerie bill go up significantly when you switched to the paleo plan?
It can be a challenge to do cheap, but it depends on what you were doing before. I was eating a can of high quality tuna fillet every morning, or salmon, and that was expensive too. Bacon is cheap, even the Applewood from WF. The good quality non "nonfat" food sticks with you too, so you don't eat as much. Eggs are cheap. Butter is cheap. It's open season on non starchy veggies-many are cheap, coconut oil is cheap. Plus you don't need to buy juice, milk, sodas, or the latest magic water... that shit is what eats up budgets.

The thing to remember with cholesterol is don't panic. No one is getting anywhere with this billion dollar industry pushing drugs on everyone. The science behind it has been taken down, but the industry is making too much money to change. CRP is a better measure of heart disease risk, and when it goes up, your problem is probably in the gut due to gluten and not LDL. There is some nasty LDL called small particle but its not on the radar for most testing.

Low HDL and high LDL just mean you have room to improve. Mine happen to be optimum as a byproduct of cutting carbs "keto" on drs orders due to insulin resistance. Nurses were gathering in my room to ask how I did it because their own numbers are fucked up and they believed the bullshit they were supposed to...lowfat and grains... Pick any keto approach and go check again, you will almost certainly see an improvement. You burn that cholesterol instead of save it for blood tests to pick up. Plus you cost big pharma one more victim.

I had to get a PHP dr when I moved to Memphis, so I pick one and we go through history at the checkup. I bring a lab since I get them every few months. We get to diet and she's skeptical, and I go "Look at the labs." "Wow, I wish I had these numbers, what are you doing!?" "I eat bacon. Isn't it true that if you stay reasonably keto adapted, that even saturated fat is fine and you just use it for fuel, and it won't stick around to show up on a cholesterol test?" she pauses.. "Yes, it's true. You just keeping doing what you are doing."
TFS
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TFS 2/2/2013 9:41am
2/2/2013 9:41am
leakypipe23 wrote:
"You are just posting to be contrary" and "your expert doesn't know what he is talking about" LOL Steve- How come you never mention the pills...
"You are just posting to be contrary" and "your expert doesn't know what he is talking about"

LOL


Steve- How come you never mention the pills that made you lose the vast majority of your weight?
That's impossible. Weight is calories in calories out, right? I just suddenly ate less. End of story. Anything else violates the first law of thermo...

Smile
Choppy
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Choppy 2/2/2013 10:11am
2/2/2013 10:11am
Although it's great to think your digestive system, metabolism etc disprove perpetual motion machines, if by chance you did drop weight by filling up on pills from a doctor as apposed to just changing your diet it's a bit shady to leave out IMO.

My diet is a modified version of a paleo diet due to a genetic stomach disease I have(and no the paleo diet is not going to all of a sudden cure my family of Crohn's like the crazies online claimed when I was asking about it years ago) and I struggled getting a new diet because things wouldn't work the same as the sites said. I'd usually find out through a number of phone calls that these people trying to get me going on a modified paleo diet had started with a doctor who prescribed something they later said "didn't work" that sure seemed to speed things up, but would make me sick. I think I could've saved some time and many poopies if they would've been straightforward.

Your last couple of posts come across in a very positive manner, intelligent and don't leave people wanting to "push back". I'll always try to add "something" of value for posts like that even if like this thread, it's only for people that might have something bad going on.
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TFS 2/2/2013 10:21am
2/2/2013 10:21am
Choppy wrote:
Although it's great to think your digestive system, metabolism etc disprove perpetual motion machines, if by chance you did drop weight by filling up on pills...
Although it's great to think your digestive system, metabolism etc disprove perpetual motion machines, if by chance you did drop weight by filling up on pills from a doctor as apposed to just changing your diet it's a bit shady to leave out IMO.

My diet is a modified version of a paleo diet due to a genetic stomach disease I have(and no the paleo diet is not going to all of a sudden cure my family of Crohn's like the crazies online claimed when I was asking about it years ago) and I struggled getting a new diet because things wouldn't work the same as the sites said. I'd usually find out through a number of phone calls that these people trying to get me going on a modified paleo diet had started with a doctor who prescribed something they later said "didn't work" that sure seemed to speed things up, but would make me sick. I think I could've saved some time and many poopies if they would've been straightforward.

Your last couple of posts come across in a very positive manner, intelligent and don't leave people wanting to "push back". I'll always try to add "something" of value for posts like that even if like this thread, it's only for people that might have something bad going on.
I don't keep secrets. It's on my website. It's not about "me" anyway. I did meds and low carb with changes since 2007, and more Paleo since Feb 2012 with same meds.

Meds can't violate the first law of thermo right? What's going on?

Sorry to hear about the Crohn's. I do think a lot of it is gluten driven. Gluten inflames the gut. Drs don't seem to care until you have symptoms. I had UC, same thing. Wheat caused it as far as I am concerned. Everyone said it was healthy...
ATKpilot99
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ATKpilot99 2/2/2013 11:02am
2/2/2013 11:02am
As far as calories in calories out go it can work. When I was unemployed I ate too much and got up to 210 lbs. When I started working again I didn't consciously diet, but I had less time to eat and was more active at work. Within 6 months I lost 16 lbs. and have leveled off there. No changes at all in what I eat and I pretty much eat whatever I want.
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Choppy 2/2/2013 11:34am
2/2/2013 11:34am
TFS wrote:
I don't keep secrets. It's on my website. It's not about "me" anyway. I did meds and low carb with changes since 2007, and more Paleo...
I don't keep secrets. It's on my website. It's not about "me" anyway. I did meds and low carb with changes since 2007, and more Paleo since Feb 2012 with same meds.

Meds can't violate the first law of thermo right? What's going on?

Sorry to hear about the Crohn's. I do think a lot of it is gluten driven. Gluten inflames the gut. Drs don't seem to care until you have symptoms. I had UC, same thing. Wheat caused it as far as I am concerned. Everyone said it was healthy...
If you truly had UC you still have it. It can go into remission, and I've seen people that have had 20+ years but its still there. The problem with things like UC, Crohns etc especially at very early stages is that it's very hard to diagnose. People will get false positives with the blood tests and taking aspirin or other things can make it look like you have UC etc during an upper or lower GI exam.
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TFS 2/2/2013 12:00pm
2/2/2013 12:00pm
Choppy wrote:
If you truly had UC you still have it. It can go into remission, and I've seen people that have had 20+ years but its still...
If you truly had UC you still have it. It can go into remission, and I've seen people that have had 20+ years but its still there. The problem with things like UC, Crohns etc especially at very early stages is that it's very hard to diagnose. People will get false positives with the blood tests and taking aspirin or other things can make it look like you have UC etc during an upper or lower GI exam.
I did but I don't have it and can't get it again. They treated it with prednisone and eventually the whole colon was removed and replaced with a pouch made from small intestine. It did pretty well for twenty years but messed up in 2011, and it took a surgeon most of the year to fix it. They took me off prednisone cold turkey, which turned out to be the beginning of a very long nightmare. That's when weight shot up and my thyroid went out. All the time I was running around shooting moto, adrenals were shot to hell. Prednisone withdrawal kills adrenals. I guess my surgeon read the wrong research a paper. Smile

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leakypipe23 2/4/2013 11:02am
2/4/2013 11:02am
These are quotes from you, Steve:

"I had good luck with a version of South Beach to get most of the old TFS gone, but for the last 20, Paleo is the only thing that worked and continues to work. "

"I didn't start doing Paleo full on until Feb 2012. I lost the weight doing minimal carbs and too much lean protein. It worked most of the time but eventually you get "the stall" and it stops working. Plaeo quickly knocked off about 20 lb and it stayed there. "

Two mentions of how you lost your weight, zero mentions of the pills you relied on (and apparently still do). This smells like the roided out supplement models in Men's Health. You need to tell the whole story, and not just the parts that support Paleo.

Also, why bring up the RC story twice? It's not necessarily a glowing anecdote to support your position. He still could have been ingesting 200g of carbs a day, or say 1,000 calories over maintenance. His reduction in calories from the missing Gatorade could be pointed to just as easily as the missing carbs. I agree with your general stance on carbs, just thought this was an odd thing to bring up.

I just re-read this thread, and I think the biggest issue I have with your preaching is the "Ogg didn't run marathons, why should we?" and you giving advice for athletes when your workouts consist of mild circuits.

People have different interests/sports they like to partake in. They need different fuel than a sedentary office worker. I think Robb summed it up pretty well in the quote I posted.
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Choppy 2/4/2013 12:09pm
2/4/2013 12:09pm Edited Date/Time 2/4/2013 12:21pm
Choppy wrote:
If you truly had UC you still have it. It can go into remission, and I've seen people that have had 20+ years but its still...
If you truly had UC you still have it. It can go into remission, and I've seen people that have had 20+ years but its still there. The problem with things like UC, Crohns etc especially at very early stages is that it's very hard to diagnose. People will get false positives with the blood tests and taking aspirin or other things can make it look like you have UC etc during an upper or lower GI exam.
TFS wrote:
I did but I don't have it and can't get it again. They treated it with prednisone and eventually the whole colon was removed and replaced...
I did but I don't have it and can't get it again. They treated it with prednisone and eventually the whole colon was removed and replaced with a pouch made from small intestine. It did pretty well for twenty years but messed up in 2011, and it took a surgeon most of the year to fix it. They took me off prednisone cold turkey, which turned out to be the beginning of a very long nightmare. That's when weight shot up and my thyroid went out. All the time I was running around shooting moto, adrenals were shot to hell. Prednisone withdrawal kills adrenals. I guess my surgeon read the wrong research a paper. Smile
What your talking about is a surgery such as a ileoanal anastomosis where they remove the colon. I thought you were referring to the diet "curing" it and that's just not going to happen. Diets can help with flares but not cure UC.

My uncle had the bag/pouch deal like you got and like yours the same thing happened. It seems like they only have about 10-20 years in them.

Stopping you on prednisone cold turkey is pretty damn harsh. I've only heard of people being taken off it slowly, and even they've complained about it. You actually might have gotten lucky that's all that happened to you going cold turkey.
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JeepnMike 2/4/2013 12:42pm
2/4/2013 12:42pm
TFS wrote:
I did but I don't have it and can't get it again. They treated it with prednisone and eventually the whole colon was removed and replaced...
I did but I don't have it and can't get it again. They treated it with prednisone and eventually the whole colon was removed and replaced with a pouch made from small intestine. It did pretty well for twenty years but messed up in 2011, and it took a surgeon most of the year to fix it. They took me off prednisone cold turkey, which turned out to be the beginning of a very long nightmare. That's when weight shot up and my thyroid went out. All the time I was running around shooting moto, adrenals were shot to hell. Prednisone withdrawal kills adrenals. I guess my surgeon read the wrong research a paper. Smile
My mom has the same thing (I believe,all is the same but they removed her large intestine too). Are you able to each leafy veggies, and tomatoes, etc.? I know there is a ton of things (apples too) she can't eat because it causes blockages in her pouch and makes her sick.. She was also just diagnosed with Celiacs (as is my wife) so her diet is insanely limited. She just quit gluten a month ago and is a totally different person. Even her digestive problems are better.
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TFS 2/4/2013 1:31pm
2/4/2013 1:31pm
leakypipe23 wrote:
These are quotes from you, Steve: "I had good luck with a version of South Beach to get most of the old TFS gone, but for...
These are quotes from you, Steve:

"I had good luck with a version of South Beach to get most of the old TFS gone, but for the last 20, Paleo is the only thing that worked and continues to work. "

"I didn't start doing Paleo full on until Feb 2012. I lost the weight doing minimal carbs and too much lean protein. It worked most of the time but eventually you get "the stall" and it stops working. Plaeo quickly knocked off about 20 lb and it stayed there. "

Two mentions of how you lost your weight, zero mentions of the pills you relied on (and apparently still do). This smells like the roided out supplement models in Men's Health. You need to tell the whole story, and not just the parts that support Paleo.

Also, why bring up the RC story twice? It's not necessarily a glowing anecdote to support your position. He still could have been ingesting 200g of carbs a day, or say 1,000 calories over maintenance. His reduction in calories from the missing Gatorade could be pointed to just as easily as the missing carbs. I agree with your general stance on carbs, just thought this was an odd thing to bring up.

I just re-read this thread, and I think the biggest issue I have with your preaching is the "Ogg didn't run marathons, why should we?" and you giving advice for athletes when your workouts consist of mild circuits.

People have different interests/sports they like to partake in. They need different fuel than a sedentary office worker. I think Robb summed it up pretty well in the quote I posted.
I'll pass. My take on your participation in this thread is you and some others have a weird personal issue with me knowing something you didn't. You will be here until 2015 disrupting it, just to keep me from passing the info along. My advice is relax and stop trying so hard.

I'm out of this one. Paleo has moved to non moto. This one is just "Trolleo."
TFS
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TFS 2/4/2013 1:38pm
2/4/2013 1:38pm
TFS wrote:
I did but I don't have it and can't get it again. They treated it with prednisone and eventually the whole colon was removed and replaced...
I did but I don't have it and can't get it again. They treated it with prednisone and eventually the whole colon was removed and replaced with a pouch made from small intestine. It did pretty well for twenty years but messed up in 2011, and it took a surgeon most of the year to fix it. They took me off prednisone cold turkey, which turned out to be the beginning of a very long nightmare. That's when weight shot up and my thyroid went out. All the time I was running around shooting moto, adrenals were shot to hell. Prednisone withdrawal kills adrenals. I guess my surgeon read the wrong research a paper. Smile
JeepnMike wrote:
My mom has the same thing (I believe,all is the same but they removed her large intestine too). Are you able to each leafy veggies, and...
My mom has the same thing (I believe,all is the same but they removed her large intestine too). Are you able to each leafy veggies, and tomatoes, etc.? I know there is a ton of things (apples too) she can't eat because it causes blockages in her pouch and makes her sick.. She was also just diagnosed with Celiacs (as is my wife) so her diet is insanely limited. She just quit gluten a month ago and is a totally different person. Even her digestive problems are better.
One more and I'm just going to stay on the one in non-moto..

It's not so bad. They did the complete colon removal and I can still eat anything I did before. I need to qualify that because some of the things I ate before made me sick, like wheat.

I was still having wheat for years after surgery and never could tell what it was doing. After the weight loss, and I stopped it for a while, then it became obvious when I started it again that it was a very bad idea. That was 2008 and I dont miss it. A few times since I thought "don't be dogmatic, wheat makes you sick?" Then I would have some, get sick, and remind myself to stop thinking that!

Good for her cutting the wheat out. You don't know how sick it makes you until you stop.

I am certain that a lot of Crohns and UC are wheat related. Maybe in a generation or two, medical science will catch up and admit it.
mjskier
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mjskier 2/4/2013 2:00pm
2/4/2013 2:00pm
They took me off prednisone cold turkey, which turned out to be the beginning of a very long nightmare. That's when weight shot up and my thyroid went out. All the time I was running around shooting moto, adrenals were shot to hell. Prednisone withdrawal kills adrenals. I guess my surgeon read the wrong research a paper.

It is pretty easy for things to get lost in the translation from doctor to patient.
My general practitioner mentioned the need to taper down, but it didn't strike me as a big deal until I read about it.
For drugs that have that kind of side effect I wished they made a very big deal about it instead of some vague general warning.
leakypipe23 2/4/2013 2:46pm
2/4/2013 2:46pm
TFS wrote:
I'll pass. My take on your participation in this thread is you and some others have a weird personal issue with me knowing something you didn't...
I'll pass. My take on your participation in this thread is you and some others have a weird personal issue with me knowing something you didn't. You will be here until 2015 disrupting it, just to keep me from passing the info along. My advice is relax and stop trying so hard.

I'm out of this one. Paleo has moved to non moto. This one is just "Trolleo."
I'm not trolling, I'm pointing out the errors in your line of thinking. I should have remembered you don't like that. AGAIN, I'm with you that a LC diet is needed for most people. I also agree that loading up on steady state cardio is bad and weight training should take it's place for those that want to improve their health. I have set up numerous HIIT programs for people and have seen great results. Athletes are different, and one of the leading Paleo experts agrees. The problem is they aren't "your" experts, so they are idiots.

Here's a good troll attempt: I sure hope RV follows you over to Non Moto for some great, experience-driven advice! haha
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TFS 2/4/2013 2:55pm
2/4/2013 2:55pm
mjskier wrote:
[b]They took me off prednisone cold turkey, which turned out to be the beginning of a very long nightmare. That's when weight shot up and my...
They took me off prednisone cold turkey, which turned out to be the beginning of a very long nightmare. That's when weight shot up and my thyroid went out. All the time I was running around shooting moto, adrenals were shot to hell. Prednisone withdrawal kills adrenals. I guess my surgeon read the wrong research a paper.

It is pretty easy for things to get lost in the translation from doctor to patient.
My general practitioner mentioned the need to taper down, but it didn't strike me as a big deal until I read about it.
For drugs that have that kind of side effect I wished they made a very big deal about it instead of some vague general warning.
I'm not sure what you mean about getting lost in translation. The doc that ordered it was very clear, don't stop it, you must taper off. Then when the surgeon said to stop it at discharge, I asked about tapering off. He said there is no colon, so no need for meds. I left with that advice and the motivation to follow instructions and stay "low fat," which was also a disaster.

Within a year weight was completely out of control. Then thyroid went out, another symptom of adrenal withdrawal. I told all the drs, nutritionists, grad students, and other experts the same story every time I met with someone to try and figure it out, and they all dismissed it and said nothing to do with it, and WHAT are you eating!? In Houston, we had an HMO and they just prescribed meds from each symptom, never the cause.

No one would stop and listen to the background, or believe it I guess. Unravelling it has been a bit of a hobby since I won't trust those people again, and have good reasons not to.
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mjskier 2/4/2013 3:41pm
2/4/2013 3:41pm
The doc that ordered it was very clear, don't stop it, you must taper off.

Got it. I thought your surgeon was the one who prescribed it in the first place.
I guess docs are like mechanics: When you find a good one, stick with him/her because there are a lot of them out there who do more damage than good.
IceMan446
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IceMan446 2/4/2013 3:55pm
2/4/2013 3:55pm
Choppy wrote:
What your talking about is a surgery such as a ileoanal anastomosis where they remove the colon. I thought you were referring to the diet "curing"...
What your talking about is a surgery such as a ileoanal anastomosis where they remove the colon. I thought you were referring to the diet "curing" it and that's just not going to happen. Diets can help with flares but not cure UC.

My uncle had the bag/pouch deal like you got and like yours the same thing happened. It seems like they only have about 10-20 years in them.

Stopping you on prednisone cold turkey is pretty damn harsh. I've only heard of people being taken off it slowly, and even they've complained about it. You actually might have gotten lucky that's all that happened to you going cold turkey.
Crohns never goes away, it can go into remission and I can attest to that.

I had 4 feet of my small intestine removed a little over three years ago and haven’t had a single issue to date. Now, the 6-8 year mark is when you will start to have issues, or when most have issues.

I have changed my diet and it has made a huge improvement on my overall health and with my Crohns. I was 14 when I was diagnosed and it got worse every year until I had surgery. I did find that working out and drinking lots of water will help a lot with flares and keeping your body as healthy as it can to fight Crohns being it thrives off of a weak immune system.

I can not eat red meat, it doesn’t work for me, it causes issues with my digestive system and that’s not a chance I want to take. But a modified version of the paleo could possibly work. My only issue is also all of the greens you would be eating. Things high in fiber also affect me and digesting those types of foods are even harder.

TFS...Gluten doesn’t cause Crohns, there is no found cause as of yet, a lot of theories out there though. But it does affect the GI system for some people. Gluten free products are also highly processed, using other things. So going paleo and GF is almost impossible.

Everyone is different and I think finding that path that works best for each person is up to that person.
Choppy
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Choppy 2/4/2013 4:17pm
2/4/2013 4:17pm
TFS wrote:
One more and I'm just going to stay on the one in non-moto.. It's not so bad. They did the complete colon removal and I can...
One more and I'm just going to stay on the one in non-moto..

It's not so bad. They did the complete colon removal and I can still eat anything I did before. I need to qualify that because some of the things I ate before made me sick, like wheat.

I was still having wheat for years after surgery and never could tell what it was doing. After the weight loss, and I stopped it for a while, then it became obvious when I started it again that it was a very bad idea. That was 2008 and I dont miss it. A few times since I thought "don't be dogmatic, wheat makes you sick?" Then I would have some, get sick, and remind myself to stop thinking that!

Good for her cutting the wheat out. You don't know how sick it makes you until you stop.

I am certain that a lot of Crohns and UC are wheat related. Maybe in a generation or two, medical science will catch up and admit it.
We never had much if any wheat in the house and I ended up with Crohn's. I'm more inclined to say that it's a genetic thing and if your going to get it you'll get it.
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Choppy 2/4/2013 4:20pm
2/4/2013 4:20pm
Choppy wrote:
What your talking about is a surgery such as a ileoanal anastomosis where they remove the colon. I thought you were referring to the diet "curing"...
What your talking about is a surgery such as a ileoanal anastomosis where they remove the colon. I thought you were referring to the diet "curing" it and that's just not going to happen. Diets can help with flares but not cure UC.

My uncle had the bag/pouch deal like you got and like yours the same thing happened. It seems like they only have about 10-20 years in them.

Stopping you on prednisone cold turkey is pretty damn harsh. I've only heard of people being taken off it slowly, and even they've complained about it. You actually might have gotten lucky that's all that happened to you going cold turkey.
IceMan446 wrote:
Crohns never goes away, it can go into remission and I can attest to that. I had 4 feet of my small intestine removed a little...
Crohns never goes away, it can go into remission and I can attest to that.

I had 4 feet of my small intestine removed a little over three years ago and haven’t had a single issue to date. Now, the 6-8 year mark is when you will start to have issues, or when most have issues.

I have changed my diet and it has made a huge improvement on my overall health and with my Crohns. I was 14 when I was diagnosed and it got worse every year until I had surgery. I did find that working out and drinking lots of water will help a lot with flares and keeping your body as healthy as it can to fight Crohns being it thrives off of a weak immune system.

I can not eat red meat, it doesn’t work for me, it causes issues with my digestive system and that’s not a chance I want to take. But a modified version of the paleo could possibly work. My only issue is also all of the greens you would be eating. Things high in fiber also affect me and digesting those types of foods are even harder.

TFS...Gluten doesn’t cause Crohns, there is no found cause as of yet, a lot of theories out there though. But it does affect the GI system for some people. Gluten free products are also highly processed, using other things. So going paleo and GF is almost impossible.

Everyone is different and I think finding that path that works best for each person is up to that person.
I use a very modified version of the paleo for the EXACT reasons you stated. The greens killed me and the same things happens to me with red meats. Makes me really sick.

Post a reply to: Started with Muscle Milk and went full Paleo