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If you allow 2 strokes back on the national stage as an economic alternative the big 4 manufacturers will start production of them again or other manufacturers will. When more manufacturers produce 2 stokes competion between them will bring the prices down more, more people will buy and bring down the price more. Then bikes will then be produced in larger quantities and filter all the way down. Right now the used market of 2 strokes is drying up. Currently we have 2 viable alternatives in 2 strokes, Yamaha and KTM, they can price these bikes as high as they want because they have little competition. Smaller manufacturers don't have enough of a foot hold to make a dent, but if they could get them in the nationals on an even playing field they might be able to.
FLMxer I still think DC is the best person for the job, but when Canadian promoters test rules to allow 2 stroke to compete cc for cc at the national levlel then I start to wonder. What is he afraid of, he used to be very aggresive in his support for getting 2 stroke in cc for cc. He dropped it because of the economy, that it may hurt the manufacturers. But now that protection of the manufacturers is doing great damage to the sport at the local level. Maybe his plan was predicated on the assumption that the economy would turn around and expensive 4 strokes wouldn't be a problem. Well it hasn't turned around and its time to start trying some change like they have done in Canada.
MX exploded onto the scene in the 70's because we had economic bikes and places to ride were plentyful. Now we have extremely expensive bikes that kill off places to ride.
We are on the same page JLong except that DC has input into the rules that can allow the more affordable bikes to compete at a national level. Why is that important? Because the manufacturers are only interested in producing high priced race bikes to compete at the national level and the rules reflect that by keeping alternatives from competeing on a level playing field cc to cc. The common people like us JLong have to race what the manufacturers are interested in producing and its pricing the local scene out of the market. If he loosens the rules like is doing it will send a message to the manufacturers, and if the manufacturers walk then so be it, we are all going to be walking from the sport if it keeps on its current trajectory.
The rules in Amateur racing allow the 250 vs 250F racing that everyone is talking about.
The are Schoolboy classes that run the 2 stroke 125 in place already.
There are folks that make brand new model year 125 and up 2 stroke race bikes that can be and in fact are sold to the public.
So again I ask;
What do the rules of a professional sport have to do with the sales of equipment and why is that a professional promoters job?
They are already doing it at the Amateur level.
Not trying to be argumentative but it's just apples and oranges.
Yes they have common elements but they aren't the same thing.
OK if they have nothing to do with them as you suggest, bring back the unlimited prototype works bikes.
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Also the teams and privateers at the national level are feeling the pinch as well. Teams going out of business and privateers calling it quits so the A class at the local level is all but extinct.
Another part of the issue has to do with the production rule. Professional motorcycle racing is required to run a reasonable form of a production based bike. This requires every manufacturer to continue on a production based increase of advanced technology on the showroom floor to stay competitive in pro racing. This alone drives up the cost of motorcycles. You can't have low cost high technology. But even with the return of one-off factory bikes the big 5 have to produce something with features and benefits to outsell their competition on showrooms and the privateers will fall even further behind. No other form of racing deals with this!! Look at showroom sport bikes... how many people really need 200mph "street" bikes?
The argument of cc vs cc is valid, but I do not believe it saves Pro Racing at any level.
If there's $ in two strokes the manufacturers will follow the $$.
450 series is premier so make it works bikes!!!
THEN
We went with the production rule years ago but it does not offer much to the privateer.
So detail the rules and stick with them.
Stock means stock!!
in the 250 class you can only change what you can purchase aftermarket or OEM.
So suspension can be worked,( no works kits), pipes, gearing.
You can't change ignitions, mod the frames, gearboxes, whatever.
Also inclusion of the 2 stroke 250 to the 250 class would make it entertaining.
How about adding a 2 stroke only class to the nationals. It would open some doors. Maybe a shorter series, like 6 of the 12 races, replaces the womens racing or put in where wmx is not.
Say no current top 20 250/450 class riders elgible. or that is the only series you can race.
We need to get the cost out of racing. the racers and the people who ride and race should drive the OEM product development, not the other way around! We want a 5k mx bike that is fun and lo cost to maintain, not a 10k grenade!
The sport is shrinking overall for the price of the few and chosen, vs the majority. The less riders we have riding everyday, with less interest in supporting mx, and harescrambles, the less voice we have keeping public lands open.
I agree about the smaller teams but again you have take into account the poor economic state.
Local A riders is a different part of it and take a look at changes in contingency to the local level for some of that.
I know guys that would race every Sat/Sun because somewhere there was a Honda or Kawi or whatever contingency day....cut that back and the fast guys don't come out.
Why is Canada able to try these changes and not us? Again they are just trying it, seeing what effect it has. It seems as if some things could be done here but nothing is.
I dont think anyone has a wrong oppinion, I just think its wrong not to be having the discussion and wrong for people to say its to burdensome to have this discussion. I understand your all busy at MX sports, but in another 4 years you may not be so busy.
For those who have the answers to fix all things moto..........become part of the solution not part of the problem as many in this thread have become. A public bash-fest is completely self -serving. DC has put his email address on here many times........use it.
MX Sports and company hardly need me to defend them. I have had many disagreements with many of the people involved when we were at the nationals every weekend. Sometimes I was right....sometimes not. The point is they were making decisions to benefit the event and ultimately the sport. Each of us and our personal wish lists can't possibly happen in the real world. Economics, TV, schedules, sponsorsand people all dictate compromise. That is business and life.
There are three separate issues in all this - viewership/fans, grassroots riders/racers and economics.
1. Viewership and fans - In almost every way bigger is better. That will attract more sponsors and with that comes the money needed to further the sport. 20+ years ago the average person could name one motorcycle guy they knew....Evel Knievel. Today most young people can name TP, JS7, MC and sometimes more.(I have teenagers so it comes up in our house). Greater exposure will attract more people to the sport. A handful of them will become riders and racers. Indy car racing (open wheel racing) at one time was one of the most watched sports in the world (F1 still is) but a microscopic percentage of fans ever race an open wheel race car. Does this make them any less a fan or enthusiast of the sport ??
2. Grassroots riders/racers - Many families I know now have to pick and choose races. Many times selecting just the bigger events. That said even with the terrible econmy in Michigan events like the Baja Brawl attract 900+ racers and a large spectator base. Interesting also that some local tracks that have gone out of their way to appeal to C class and begginer riders are thriving. Yes there are lots of old 2strokes, mismatched gear and old helmets. The point is there are would be racers out there. How many of you have been to the RedBud national for amateur racing? How many hundreds of racers of all sorts do you see there ??
3. Economics - The impact of economics on this sport and most others has been huge. I was very involved when things were booming and can now tell stories of hardship that I never though about until things went badly. The simple fact is that jobs and income cure almost every problem being discussed in this thread. No matter which side of the political spectrum you are on.....jobs and incomes do not look rosey any time soon. That means MX Sports, Feld, sponsors and everyone on the business side must plan accordingly. In an enterprise as large as MX Sports planning for this must be an enormous undertaking before you consider putting on the first event.
Those who condemn MX Sports or even worse DC personally for having a profit motive are either incredibly naive or ignorant to the reality of business. How many of the complainers have put everything they have including money, hard work, reputation and spirit on the line ?? My guess is not many. It is pretty easy to type all the cool things that you would do......much harder to execute given the realities of the world.
I have seen some constructive ideas posted here many times. Unfortunately much of what has been written in this thread is far from constructive.
To those who are throwing the biggest stones....be very careful what you wish for. There was a time not too long ago where the future of the sport we love was far less bright than it is today.
BTW.....Happy Holidays everyone.
Just as an FYI, I think adding works bikes back into pro racing makes the gap between the haves and have-nots wider than ever, but it would probably be in things that you can't see, like electronics...but they've already done that. I also think that the teams have refined things to a high enough level that you'd be disappointed in what would (and wouldn't) change.
Yeah, you might see some occasional trick parts (carbon fiber, etc.), but I really doubt you'd see a whole lot different. As an example, look at the GP series. Are there exotic chassis or swingarms like in the old days? About the biggest differences would be some carbon subframe/airbox setups, and the pipes that we saw on Evgeny Bobryshev and Rui Goncalves' bikes.
It ain't like the "good old days" when the fleet of Honda Box vans would line up and roll out some really trick RC bikes for you to drool over.
What do the rules of a professional sport have to do with the sales of equipment "
Now I'm really confused, I thought the manufacturers promoted the bikes, that's why the have (had) racing teams??
With current bikesales I can however understand they are soon out of business all of them. Maybe we could just race different energy drinks on prime time?
The AMA national series and SX series is tied to the FIM.
I don't believe tha amature series is.
Other than Mathese you won't hear about issues from Canada relating to the sponsor ties and battles between the FIM/CMA vs the CMRC when it comes to the OEM's supporting the series.
CMRC vs CMA/FIM has killed MX in canada because they are two separate groups now fighting for the same Sponsors.
And the OEM's are loyal to the FIM.
If the FIM and the OEM's don't want two strokes, then you won't have two strokes in the AMA national series.
Otherwise you will risk Sponsors loyalty between the SX (FIM/AMA) series and a new national series with 2 strokes not approved by the FIM.
Sponsors will side with SX series and MX will all but fail.
CMRC is looking for ways to survive and help the privateers and the sport since the FIM is killing them.
I am glad CMRC does not get along with the FIM.
This is north america, leave us alone!
We are totally looking at the same thing but from different angles, the local A riders used to make up these small teams and on off weekends they would race local events for money(purse) and contingency like you said. They looked to the purse and contingency to offset the expense of racing because its got to expensive and possibly make some money(Gaspppp a local pro making money). So you remove the contingency and some A guys and B guys stop coming because the can't offset the expense, that then lowers the purse amount because of less riders and the others stop coming so you have what we have now. One or two A riders in a class on the local scene.
Why did manufacturers contingency stop, because of lower bike sales. Why did bike sales go down, because it got to expensive to race as a whole. Why did it get to expensive, because manufacturers are pushing for national results with 4 strokes cause rules do not allow cc to cc racing. Why will turn out continue to decline because there is no viable economic alternative coming from the manufacturers because they don't have to due to the national rules. They may change when sales become so poor but they all have alterntive business, Honda has cars etc etc......It maybe to late by then, local tracks will be far and few between.
12 rounds 250cc National Championship 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
6 rounds 125cc National Championship 2 stroke only
6 rounds Open class National Championship 251cc and up 2 stroke or 4 stroke
Would provide plenty of great racing for everyone and with some relaxed homo rules might spur some damn growth in the sport. The sport is obviously suffering at several levels. Seeing small companies basically banned from the sport because they don't build X number of this or X stroke of that is getting to the point that it makes me want to buy anything but what the big 4 now 5 have homologated.
Davey's direction is bigger, live mass audience and a main stream extreme action sport (Now that is an oxymoron!). More and bigger sponsors, more money, bigger stars and on and on. MX Sports has also turned LL into a pseudo pro endevour with top Am's spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and courting paid sponsorship money. Ya we are so big time. But though it all Davey maintains he is "pullin for the little guy the privateer"...
I'm not buying it anymore. He is all about how pro motocross benefits MX Sports. Beyond that it's just bonus or what seems to be occurring collateral damage.
If DC wants to take MX global and be on par with MotoGP, F1 and NASCAR, that is awesome!! Just stop prentending like true amateur MX is any more important to him than hobby stocks and karting are to NASCAR and FIA. It just looks contrived.
Pit Row
Actually, KTM would have to make a 125 again.
And no, I see Yamaha, Ktm,Husqvarna and TM for starters. And just like the UEM class, maybe even some individual builders. You know Service Honda builds a really nice 125 don't you? Why would you want to exclude AJ and his efforts? If Kawasaki, Suzuki and Honda don't build a bike to compete, then who's problem is that? They can continue to compete in the ultra expensive 250F class and the 450 class with all their injured riders sitting out the season collecting a check. Being blinded by the unrealistic homo rules haven't exactly been good for the mx industry here in the US. Bunch of dealerships sitting on dust collecting bikes that aren't selling.
Throw homologation at your list and you're likely back to the two that I mentioned.
And to line the pockets of the crooks at the AMA. "Protecting your right to ride, as long as it's what the Japanese have paid us to let you ride". LMAO. Dal Smilie get out of prison yet? Ever wonder how many others should have gone to the clink with him? Guessing he was just the sacrificial lamb....
I am not saying the sport is dead but instead that dude the canaries have died and we need to stop and look around but the guy most peaole see as the leader is out front saying everything is better than ever!!!
I just disagree.
Whether you, DC or any other guys who are immersed in the Biz want to see it, (perhaps too close to the trees to see the forest?) there might be truth to be gleaned from some of the blowhard Doom & Gloomers who likewise have been around this stuff for 30-40 years if you can put your own opinion aside long enough to see a different view.
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