why doesnt ktm use aluinum frames?

VRR7
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VRR7 11/13/2012 7:02am
11/13/2012 7:02am
Roscoe33 wrote:
no, KTM listens to racer opinions and based on winning results, if it was cost savings they wouldn't use $$$ valves. Ever seen somebody try and...
no, KTM listens to racer opinions and based on winning results, if it was cost savings they wouldn't use $$$ valves.
Ever seen somebody try and fix a aluminium frame in the pits ?
VRR7 wrote:
Interesting theory - KTM won 1 AMA supercross just recently and how many AMA Outdoors ? - They use Chromoly Honda won 200 or So AMA...
Interesting theory - KTM won 1 AMA supercross just recently and how many AMA Outdoors ? - They use Chromoly

Honda won 200 or So AMA championships they use Ali

Guess if your theory is correct then Ali is they way to go ? Riders Feedback from Winning results = Ali
newmann wrote:
Honda did what? Hell, the aluminum frame was such a piece of shit that McGrath refuse to ride it. Jeremy went on to win championships on...
Honda did what? Hell, the aluminum frame was such a piece of shit that McGrath refuse to ride it. Jeremy went on to win championships on the steel framed Yamaha's. RC won a stack of races and championships on steel before and after the aluminum framed Honda days. Yamaha hasn't exactly been killing it on aluminum. KTM dominates off road the world over, world championship mx and now they are at the top in the US MX and SX series. Lighter than aluminum and easier to access the mechanicals to properly maintain a race bike. Works for me.Wink
You make a Good Point - Seems like it is not so easy to make a good MX Ali Frame after all - Another possible reason KTM does not want to "go there" as it where - Took Honda for ages to get it right - It seems Kaw and Suz copied the Honda direction - Yamaha took their own route and still battling to hit it on the head - However my opnion is that it does appear statistically that Ali is the direction technology is going in terms of material for performance vehicles construction. Wink As they say if it not broken do not fix it - Manufacturing cost tooling up etc etc to what could potentially be worse than the tried and tested - I guess is not always good business management
newmann
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newmann 11/13/2012 7:09am
11/13/2012 7:09am
Ferrari 458 Italia? I think they have a few issues besides the aluminum chassis that needs attention first. Damn pretty cars though.... Laughing









MX558
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MX558 11/13/2012 7:12am
11/13/2012 7:12am
I loved the chassis on the new KTM, the Honda is one rigid mofo.
VRR7
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VRR7 11/13/2012 7:18am
11/13/2012 7:18am
newmann wrote:
Ferrari 458 Italia? I think they have a few issues besides the aluminum chassis that needs attention first. Damn pretty cars though.... :laugh: [img]http://wreckedexotics.com/articles/images/458_20100819_3.jpg[/img] [img]https://hyundaigenesisblog.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/eff90_ferrari_458_italia_burned_main.jpg[/img] [img]https://hyundaigenesisblog.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/04bca_ferrari_458_italia_burned_down_images_main.jpg[/img]...
Ferrari 458 Italia? I think they have a few issues besides the aluminum chassis that needs attention first. Damn pretty cars though.... Laughing









You are right - These are made of steel and they hardly burnt out Laughing Laughing

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newmann
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newmann 11/13/2012 7:31am
11/13/2012 7:31am
VRR7 wrote:
You are right - These are made of steel and they hardly burnt out :laugh: :laugh: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2012/11/13/Steam_Locomotive1_107225.jpg[/img]
You are right - These are made of steel and they hardly burnt out Laughing Laughing
Not to mention they corner like they are on rails! Just don't stop worth a damn. Maybe that explains KTM's use of those badass Brembo's??

I've always wanted to ride the aluminum framed YZ 2 strokes. That frame design looks like it was designed to work more like a steel chassis than the huge twin spar setups used on all the other bikes. Anyone got ride reports on those compared to other alloy framed bikes?

Speaking of aluminum framed bikes, I really need to finish this one.

VRR7
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VRR7 11/13/2012 8:56am
11/13/2012 8:56am
Now that is way Cool

Woohoo

The YZ250 2T Aluminium is a very Neutral handling Bike - Easy to Corner on - Same as the Husky TE2/450/510 - Neutral Handling - Steal frame ??? WTF ? The Original YZ 250/450 F Ali Frame Hand some quirks - The Newer twin Spar is better - I figure it is easier to adjust a Steel Frame if you have an element wrong - Than Adjusting a Ali Frame - They did shorten the Orig YZ250F by 3mm . The Newer SX250 2T KTM have past the YZ250 2T the last 2 years cos technology moves on .

" I loved the chassis on the new KTM, the Honda is one rigid mofo. "

What does that mean ?

Slow Fast
Suspension
Soft Hard
Frame ???
Flexible(Steel) Rigid(Ali) which way around would the Ultimate Character of material fit the Above Facts of Tuning ? Easy Conclusion .

Ali = Expensive and Hard to get right
Steel = Cheaper and Easier to get right

Steel Frame SX they replace every race
Ali they Replace every 3 races

Pro and cons to everything -

However the hard and fast rule of tuning is stiffer for faster mean that Ali tends to the Faster Ulitmate side of Character of material - Where as steel tends toward the other side which means that steel will reach its limits as a Motorcycle frame quicker than an Ali frame will.

Aluminiun in the Biosphere is another topic Angry
Deetsmx
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Deetsmx 11/13/2012 9:45am
11/13/2012 9:45am
newmann wrote:
Not to mention they corner like they are on rails! Just don't stop worth a damn. Maybe that explains KTM's use of those badass Brembo's?? I've...
Not to mention they corner like they are on rails! Just don't stop worth a damn. Maybe that explains KTM's use of those badass Brembo's??

I've always wanted to ride the aluminum framed YZ 2 strokes. That frame design looks like it was designed to work more like a steel chassis than the huge twin spar setups used on all the other bikes. Anyone got ride reports on those compared to other alloy framed bikes?

Speaking of aluminum framed bikes, I really need to finish this one.

I had an 06 yz250, much more rigid than the CR250's in my opinion. It looks like it would flex more given the size of the frame but I wasn't a fan of that bike, never could get it to work right on acceleration chop. Hopped on a steel framed yz back to back with mine and it was much more forgiving. I now ride an RM250, just feels better all around but I do remember these steel framed bikes feeling much more clapped out after a season. I think the KTM's use a higher quality steel than the japanese did though.
JamesOliver 11/13/2012 9:52am
11/13/2012 9:52am
VRR7 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2012/11/13/panel_shop_photo_Neil_Bridge_630x332_355503.jpg[/img] 458 Italia KTM can convince their Target Market bu they will have a tough time convincing the rest of the world big players that steel...


458 Italia

KTM can convince their Target Market bu they will have a tough time convincing the rest of the world big players that steel is still the deal.
I saw a 458 Italia in london over the weekend. Hands down one of the nicest cars I have ever seen!
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newmann 11/13/2012 10:02am
11/13/2012 10:02am
JamesOliver wrote:
I saw a 458 Italia in london over the weekend. Hands down one of the nicest cars I have ever seen!
No doubt. Dream car.

mellonhs
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mellonhs 11/13/2012 10:50am
11/13/2012 10:50am
I WILL own a 458 Italia before I die... The sickest car of all time. Especially when you get online and build yours :p gahh
rjklein4470
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rjklein4470 11/13/2012 2:45pm
11/13/2012 2:45pm
I own a 458 Italia, and the issue is where the fuel cells are located. The fuel cells are located aft of the rear wheels above the headers, so any side impact and the fuel cells rupture onto the headers making it a instant inferno. But that is the only place the fuel cells can live in these cars.
MX558
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MX558 11/13/2012 2:47pm
11/13/2012 2:47pm
What does that mean ? It means the chassis flexes more in my simple analysis of riding the bike. The Honda's have a way stiffer chassis, it's about the only things I don't like about it. I think the 09 Yamaha chassis is better as far as feel but that bike doesn't turn as well.
newmann
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newmann 11/13/2012 3:12pm
11/13/2012 3:12pm
rjklein4470 wrote:
I own a 458 Italia, and the issue is where the fuel cells are located. The fuel cells are located aft of the rear wheels above...
I own a 458 Italia, and the issue is where the fuel cells are located. The fuel cells are located aft of the rear wheels above the headers, so any side impact and the fuel cells rupture onto the headers making it a instant inferno. But that is the only place the fuel cells can live in these cars.
Photos please,and a "ride" report. For those of us less fortunate. I bought my wife a 350Z convertible for her 40th BDay, told her for my 50th mine needed to be silver or red with a prancing horse on the fender. Got a few more years to go, we'll see how that shit turns out.LOL
Blackopsrider7 11/13/2012 3:42pm
11/13/2012 3:42pm Edited Date/Time 11/13/2012 3:45pm
If it ain't broke, why fix it?! I ride a Ducati Monster as my street bike, it is steel tubing trellis frame, handles amazing!! Yes, I realize Ducati went to a different frame on the Panigale, I haven't seen any of them in SBK yet....oh well.... I rode the older generation CR125 and 250s, then then got the first few Aluminium framed ones, the 1999 killed me every ride, wow!!
JamesOliver 11/13/2012 3:46pm
11/13/2012 3:46pm
rjklein4470 wrote:
I own a 458 Italia, and the issue is where the fuel cells are located. The fuel cells are located aft of the rear wheels above...
I own a 458 Italia, and the issue is where the fuel cells are located. The fuel cells are located aft of the rear wheels above the headers, so any side impact and the fuel cells rupture onto the headers making it a instant inferno. But that is the only place the fuel cells can live in these cars.
Get some pictures up ASAP please Smile
AS64
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AS64 11/15/2012 1:38pm
11/15/2012 1:38pm
when are we gonna see those pics??
es337
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es337 11/15/2012 2:04pm
11/15/2012 2:04pm
AS64 wrote:
when are we gonna see those pics??
smoothwakey 11/15/2012 3:28pm
11/15/2012 3:28pm
Obviously both materials have pros and cons but in theory you can make a stronger and lighter frame out of a good chromoly steel. To do this however it is more labour intensive for steel compared with aluminium, aluminium can be easily cast allowing complex shapes to be consistently achieved for very little labour time. Basically it's is a lot easier and cheaper to make an aluminium frame that is just as good in almost every way as the steel one. In addition more flex can be safely designed into the steel frame before fatigue life is affected hence they feel more compliant.

Also I would be surprised if these newer ktm frames have the same stretching issues as the steel framed Japanese bikes of old because the steel they are using has much better mechanical properties.

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rjklein4470
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rjklein4470 11/15/2012 6:12pm
11/15/2012 6:12pm
AS64 wrote:
when are we gonna see those pics??
Let me just say this, never own a prancing horse that is not on factory warranty. My red car is at lake forest having a new clutch installed. The F1 computer went out smoking my clutch. Don't even ask how much. I have had a couple of these cars and this kind of thing really takes the fun out.

If you want a fun car here is my suggestion, buy a superperformance GT40 they look great, can go like a bat out of hell, and if the clutch fails it's $300. In fact you could buy a ford crate racing motor for what this clutch is going to cost.
AS64
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AS64 11/16/2012 12:21am
11/16/2012 12:21am Edited Date/Time 11/16/2012 12:27am
rjklein4470 wrote:
Let me just say this, never own a prancing horse that is not on factory warranty. My red car is at lake forest having a new...
Let me just say this, never own a prancing horse that is not on factory warranty. My red car is at lake forest having a new clutch installed. The F1 computer went out smoking my clutch. Don't even ask how much. I have had a couple of these cars and this kind of thing really takes the fun out.

If you want a fun car here is my suggestion, buy a superperformance GT40 they look great, can go like a bat out of hell, and if the clutch fails it's $300. In fact you could buy a ford crate racing motor for what this clutch is going to cost.
Sorry about your clutch man. Is that a common problem in Ferraris? One of my Fathers friends had to get his clutch replaced on his F430. Not sure if it was just from a mistake, mechanical, or over use. BTW I think we all still want to see some pics!

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