Resurgence of the 2 stroke

newmann
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newmann 1/18/2012 3:41pm
1/18/2012 3:41pm
TeamGreen wrote:
The Politics of the Late '90s and the Global Warming/Al Gore crowd ushered in the 4-Stroke due to the 2-Strokes getting labeled as a Dirty 3rd...
The Politics of the Late '90s and the Global Warming/Al Gore crowd ushered in the 4-Stroke due to the 2-Strokes getting labeled as a Dirty 3rd World Technology.

Sad; but, true...
GuyB wrote:
I don't always buy that. If that were the case, there'd be a lot fewer two-stroke leafblowers and edgers. There are a lot more of those...
I don't always buy that. If that were the case, there'd be a lot fewer two-stroke leafblowers and edgers. There are a lot more of those, and as far as I know, none of them would get a closed-course exemption.
So, if it wasn't to sell parts or Al Gore, then it was solely the double displacement rule of the AMA, right? F$%&in' AMA...."Protecting your right to ride.....an overpriced , underpowered (cc/cc), high maintenance,POS grenade with the pin pulled 250F".
reded
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reded 1/18/2012 3:42pm
1/18/2012 3:42pm
CR250Rider wrote:
most dealers only stock a fraction of all the parts they could ( or should ) Why should they? normal part procurement process: * you go...
most dealers only stock a fraction of all the parts they could ( or should ) Why should they?

normal part procurement process:

* you go to dealer, you're informed it's not in stock...you have to pay for part in advance
* Dealer orders part
* part gets shipped from huge warehouse
* part arrives at dealer
* dealer forgets to call customer to let them know the part has arrived
* finally you call parts guy, he finds part
* customer drives back to dealer ( a second time ) and you get part 2 weeks later ( or sooner if you pay EXTRA )
If they're extremely business savvy like my local guy, they'll order the wrong part and try to charge you a 20% restocking fee after you show back up and tell him it's the wrong part.
Derpin' DJ
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Derpin' DJ 1/18/2012 3:42pm
1/18/2012 3:42pm
GuyB wrote:
I get the cheerleading by two-stroke guys. But I find it really hard to believe that anyone thinks that the real reason the manufacturers went to...
I get the cheerleading by two-stroke guys. But I find it really hard to believe that anyone thinks that the real reason the manufacturers went to four-strokes is because they could make more on parts.
mxking6 wrote:
You're kidding right Gibby? The some of the few resons MFG's ever do anything is for market share, to make a better product or enter a...
You're kidding right Gibby?

The some of the few resons MFG's ever do anything is for market share, to make a better product or enter a new market-place or increase profits.

In the case of the 2-stroke.....then 20-30 years later, the 4-stroke, it was for those reasons exactly. Plus they may have gained some performance along the way. But when it comes down to it, it's all about the money.

Now if they would have only spent that kind of money developing the 2-stroke, imagine where we would be. Imagine an even cleaner running 2-stroke with all of those improvements. We sure wouldn't be stuck with all of these boat-anchor, money losing, costly to maintaing turds(Husaberg's excluded) in the back of our vans.
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to get a few more HP out, but thats it. A 250cc 2 stroke should be able to produce the same power as a 500cc 4 stroke, but it can't because it's design is inefficient.
MX4EVR
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MX4EVR 1/18/2012 3:45pm
1/18/2012 3:45pm
mtl wrote:
MFG's dont give a shit about selling parts. It is a logistical and stocking pain in the ass for them. They are not in the supply...
MFG's dont give a shit about selling parts. It is a logistical and stocking pain in the ass for them.

They are not in the supply chain business they are in the build a vehicle and sell it business. They would rather have all parts be aftermarket and not deal with the hassle.
Really?
The parts revenue has got to be may more than the sales of new bikes.

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reded
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reded 1/18/2012 3:46pm
1/18/2012 3:46pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2012 3:48pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to...
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to get a few more HP out, but thats it. A 250cc 2 stroke should be able to produce the same power as a 500cc 4 stroke, but it can't because it's design is inefficient.
Newsflash boss, they do. They just don't hold their peak power for as long.
Derpin' DJ
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Derpin' DJ 1/18/2012 3:48pm
1/18/2012 3:48pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to...
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to get a few more HP out, but thats it. A 250cc 2 stroke should be able to produce the same power as a 500cc 4 stroke, but it can't because it's design is inefficient.
reded wrote:
Newsflash boss, they do. They just don't hold their peak power for as long.
Really? What, it's peak horsepower? What about the rest of the power range
MX Sports Medicine 1/18/2012 3:55pm
1/18/2012 3:55pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to...
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to get a few more HP out, but thats it. A 250cc 2 stroke should be able to produce the same power as a 500cc 4 stroke, but it can't because it's design is inefficient.
Inefficient??
Man, how many times in one post do I have to say:
Are you 4ucking SERIOUS?
mxking6
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mxking6 1/18/2012 3:55pm
1/18/2012 3:55pm
I've got a 440cc 2-stroke with 94hp at 9400rpm and another one with 115hp at 10,500rpm.

Guess what........they're 36 years old. Imagine what the same set up could do with all of those millions that went into 4-strokes....
Racer92
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Racer92 1/18/2012 3:56pm
1/18/2012 3:56pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to...
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to get a few more HP out, but thats it. A 250cc 2 stroke should be able to produce the same power as a 500cc 4 stroke, but it can't because it's design is inefficient.
How do you define inefficient? Id contend that the 2 stroke is getting more work done per BTU consumed due to few moving parts to steal from the system.

And how do you know "there wasnt much more they could do with the 2-stroke." Are you a R&D engineer with emphasis on internal combustion, stoichiometric combustion and applied mechanical engineering?
MX Sports Medicine 1/18/2012 4:01pm
1/18/2012 4:01pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to...
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to get a few more HP out, but thats it. A 250cc 2 stroke should be able to produce the same power as a 500cc 4 stroke, but it can't because it's design is inefficient.
Racer92 wrote:
How do you define inefficient? Id contend that the 2 stroke is getting more work done per BTU consumed due to few moving parts to steal...
How do you define inefficient? Id contend that the 2 stroke is getting more work done per BTU consumed due to few moving parts to steal from the system.

And how do you know "there wasnt much more they could do with the 2-stroke." Are you a R&D engineer with emphasis on internal combustion, stoichiometric combustion and applied mechanical engineering?
Don't confuse him with the facts...
Derpin' DJ
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Derpin' DJ 1/18/2012 4:01pm
1/18/2012 4:01pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to...
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to get a few more HP out, but thats it. A 250cc 2 stroke should be able to produce the same power as a 500cc 4 stroke, but it can't because it's design is inefficient.
MX Sports Medicine wrote:
Inefficient??
Man, how many times in one post do I have to say:
Are you 4ucking SERIOUS?
I'm just applying simple thermodynamics. At the same RPM, a 125cc two-stroke is burning the same amount of fuel as a 250cc four-stroke. The fact that a four-stroke has more power at pretty much every RPM means that it is converting more chemical energy into work energy than the two-stroke.
Derpin' DJ
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Derpin' DJ 1/18/2012 4:04pm
1/18/2012 4:04pm
"How do you define inefficient? Id contend that the 2 stroke is getting more work done per BTU consumed due to few moving parts to steal from the system."

That is the reason why the older 4 strokes never performed well. The newer 4 strokes have lighter parts which reduce the robbed power.
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TeamGreen 1/18/2012 4:05pm
1/18/2012 4:05pm
mxking6 wrote:
I've got a 440cc 2-stroke with 94hp at 9400rpm and another one with 115hp at 10,500rpm. Guess what........they're 36 years old. Imagine what the same set...
I've got a 440cc 2-stroke with 94hp at 9400rpm and another one with 115hp at 10,500rpm.

Guess what........they're 36 years old. Imagine what the same set up could do with all of those millions that went into 4-strokes....
Hi-Strung twins with virtually no torque?
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RACEGUY 1/18/2012 4:19pm
1/18/2012 4:19pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Hi-Strung twins with virtually no torque?
Not something you worry about with a CVT.
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NP301 1/18/2012 4:19pm
1/18/2012 4:19pm
There is tons of stuff that they could have done to the 2 stroke! Even the stuff they have done to the 4 strokes they could do to the 2 stroke. In a 2012 chassis made for a 250 2 stroke, it would be very competitive to the modern 450 or 350.
Charles Bronson 1/18/2012 4:20pm
1/18/2012 4:20pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to...
There wasn't much more they could do with the 2-stroke. Sure, theres DFI, but that just prevents unburnt fuel. There would be a few mods to get a few more HP out, but thats it. A 250cc 2 stroke should be able to produce the same power as a 500cc 4 stroke, but it can't because it's design is inefficient.
you dont know what you are talking about and have probably never been inside a 2 stroke. if you had, you would not have posted what you did.

that is probably the first time i have ever seen anyone refer to a two stroke as "inefficient" in comparison to a fucking fourstroke! comedy!
Derpin' DJ
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Derpin' DJ 1/18/2012 4:22pm
1/18/2012 4:22pm
It's a matter of the engine technology though. KTM are still developing the chassis for their two stroke range.

They should just allow both classes of the two-strokes to have an extra 50-75cc (or reduce the 450 to a 400)
reded
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reded 1/18/2012 4:23pm
1/18/2012 4:23pm
It's apparent to me that Derp reads too many magazines and brochures.

Pit Row

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Charles Bronson 1/18/2012 4:25pm
1/18/2012 4:25pm
mxking6 wrote:
I've got a 440cc 2-stroke with 94hp at 9400rpm and another one with 115hp at 10,500rpm. Guess what........they're 36 years old. Imagine what the same set...
I've got a 440cc 2-stroke with 94hp at 9400rpm and another one with 115hp at 10,500rpm.

Guess what........they're 36 years old. Imagine what the same set up could do with all of those millions that went into 4-strokes....
precisely. toroidal heads. water cooled exhaust. efi. there is so much potential left in a 250cc two stroke, it is not even funny.

and to be fair, theres a few hp left in a 450cc 4 stroke. but not nearly as much as what the 250s left on the table.
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machine 1/18/2012 4:25pm
1/18/2012 4:25pm
GuyB wrote:
I get the cheerleading by two-stroke guys. But I find it really hard to believe that anyone thinks that the real reason the manufacturers went to...
I get the cheerleading by two-stroke guys. But I find it really hard to believe that anyone thinks that the real reason the manufacturers went to four-strokes is because they could make more on parts.
You should have known that you would be burnt at the stake for making that comment......Grinning
Racer92
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Racer92 1/18/2012 4:25pm
1/18/2012 4:25pm
Charles Bronson wrote:
you dont know what you are talking about and have probably never been inside a 2 stroke. if you had, you would not have posted what...
you dont know what you are talking about and have probably never been inside a 2 stroke. if you had, you would not have posted what you did.

that is probably the first time i have ever seen anyone refer to a two stroke as "inefficient" in comparison to a fucking fourstroke! comedy!
Yeah right! Any engineer worth his slide rule knows right off that simpler is ALWAYS better. And there simply is no way an old Otto Cycle design will get the same measurable work done per consumed BTU unit as a system with less moving parts and all their associated mass and friction.

But hey, I wanna hear more of this new fangled science! This is good shit !
GuyB
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GuyB 1/18/2012 4:27pm
1/18/2012 4:27pm
MX Sports Medicine wrote:
Again with all due respect, and half jokingly, I have a guess at your political alliance if you think that corporations have any motovation ;) other...
Again with all due respect, and half jokingly,
I have a guess at your political alliance if you think that corporations have any motovation Wink other than profit.
Sure, any company has to make a profit. I get that.

But there are always other motivations, too. I tend to think a lot of motorcycle manufacturers are in the fun business. If they don't produce things that you like, and keep you coming back, it affects the profit side.

Of course, the current economy has thrown a wrench in a lot of what's been "business as usual."
Derpin' DJ
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Derpin' DJ 1/18/2012 4:27pm
1/18/2012 4:27pm
Please. If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, explain how.

I'm a chemical engineer, I'm just saying what makes sense to me. I'm willing to admit that I'm probably talking out of my arse if someone can tell me how I am wrong.

It's like arguing with a bunch of religious nuts in here. There's just no convincing them otherwise.
newmann
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newmann 1/18/2012 4:28pm
1/18/2012 4:28pm
I'm still trying to figure out what's inefficient about 157 less friction producing , power robbing, moving parts? Enlighten us Derp.....please.
Charles Bronson 1/18/2012 4:30pm
1/18/2012 4:30pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
Please. If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, explain how. I'm a chemical engineer, I'm just saying what makes sense to me. I'm willing to...
Please. If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, explain how.

I'm a chemical engineer, I'm just saying what makes sense to me. I'm willing to admit that I'm probably talking out of my arse if someone can tell me how I am wrong.

It's like arguing with a bunch of religious nuts in here. There's just no convincing them otherwise.
two strokes DID NOT meet a developmental dead end. they met a rider dead end, on road ,and off. dont mistake the 2.
mxking6
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mxking6 1/18/2012 4:34pm
1/18/2012 4:34pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2012 4:34pm
This is so ten years ago.......what's next .....seat bounce??
Charles Bronson 1/18/2012 4:37pm
1/18/2012 4:37pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2012 4:38pm
the last rider to win a 500cc gp championship (the pinnacle of two stroke technology) on what is nicknamed a "screamer" configuration (90 deg crank)was Kevin Schwantz in 1993. From 1994 to 2001, Mick Doohan (then Criville, then Rossi) and the Honda boys went to a "big bang" (180 deg crank) ignition in an effort to lower the power output and increase ridability. So, essentially, in the early 90s the quest for power ended, and the quest for ridability went onward. This is also where honda got the RC valve from, and started running them on the MX bikes, but scrapped it prematurely in about 01-02 when they smelled the 4-stroke pile of cash.

so, now, what killed them? a technological dead end that would not allow for more HP? or a rider-oriented dead end that would not allow for more hp? it could be argued either way... but sheer power output? noooooo way. you'd shit yourself if you knew what a 250cc two stroke was really capable of on the limit, but i can assure you, about hte only place it would be rideable is southwick.
GuyB
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GuyB 1/18/2012 4:39pm
1/18/2012 4:39pm
Charles Bronson wrote:
the last rider to win a 500cc gp championship (the pinnacle of two stroke technology) on what is nicknamed a "screamer" configuration (90 deg crank)was Kevin...
the last rider to win a 500cc gp championship (the pinnacle of two stroke technology) on what is nicknamed a "screamer" configuration (90 deg crank)was Kevin Schwantz in 1993. From 1994 to 2001, Mick Doohan (then Criville, then Rossi) and the Honda boys went to a "big bang" (180 deg crank) ignition in an effort to lower the power output and increase ridability. So, essentially, in the early 90s the quest for power ended, and the quest for ridability went onward. This is also where honda got the RC valve from, and started running them on the MX bikes, but scrapped it prematurely in about 01-02 when they smelled the 4-stroke pile of cash.

so, now, what killed them? a technological dead end that would not allow for more HP? or a rider-oriented dead end that would not allow for more hp? it could be argued either way... but sheer power output? noooooo way. you'd shit yourself if you knew what a 250cc two stroke was really capable of on the limit, but i can assure you, about hte only place it would be rideable is southwick.
Man, you sound like a real Premix Junkie.
Charles Bronson 1/18/2012 4:41pm
1/18/2012 4:41pm
GuyB wrote:
Man, you sound like a real Premix Junkie.
cut my grass with a lawnboy.
reded
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reded 1/18/2012 4:43pm
1/18/2012 4:43pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2012 4:44pm
I own a 421cc two stroke that makes 98.6 hp and has 10-15 more left in it. It can be trail ridden or duned all day long. The power is straight up unbelievable when the throttle cable is stretched. 450cc four strokes do not impress me one bit.

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