frame welding in ama racing?

Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 8:32am
just a question but i thought changing the frame in any way was against the rules in ama racing (outside of the subframe)

if you listen here at the 4:00 mark he says frames are going to the Welder . Whats up with that? and y? would you send them to a welder?

http://motocross.transworld.net/1000119863/news/hart-and-huntington-rac…
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CamP
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1/3/2012 9:39am Edited Date/Time 1/3/2012 9:40am
"Whats up with that? and y? would you send them to a welder?"

So they don't break in half when you case a 90' triple. Additional gusseting is legal.
HondaFan33
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1/3/2012 9:43am
Just because they weld the frame doesn't really mean they are changing it. I'm pretty sure the rule about frames deals with keeping the geometry and all the measurements the same. Have you ever noticed how sloppy some of the welds on a new bike are? They are sent to a welder so they can cut apart the frame and re-weld it to have super perfect welds.
1/3/2012 9:45am
Matthes has touched on this before. Maybe he'll chime in here with what he's seen/heard. I believe he said that everyone does it and the AMA never checks it.

I am not sure on the rules and I can understand how additional gusseting might be legal. Matthes had also talked about the reverse of that: removing material to introduce flex into the too-rigid aluminum frames, especially when they were first introduced. This likely is not legal but allegedly was done by many teams. Steve - you here?
tydock8
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1/3/2012 9:46am
Kenny Watson stated on Pulpmx show that they were welding on tabs for their skid plates so they don't have to use those frame clamps.

The Shop

CamP
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1/3/2012 9:52am
Matthes has touched on this before. Maybe he'll chime in here with what he's seen/heard. I believe he said that everyone does it and the AMA...
Matthes has touched on this before. Maybe he'll chime in here with what he's seen/heard. I believe he said that everyone does it and the AMA never checks it.

I am not sure on the rules and I can understand how additional gusseting might be legal. Matthes had also talked about the reverse of that: removing material to introduce flex into the too-rigid aluminum frames, especially when they were first introduced. This likely is not legal but allegedly was done by many teams. Steve - you here?
Yeah, some teams were "polishing" the frame spars to the point that they were removing enough material to make the frames significantly less rigid. Supposedly, the AMA put a nix to that, but the teams will always find ways to bend the rules.
1/3/2012 9:58am
I can see the AMA struggling with geometry.
1/3/2012 10:37am
a buddy of mine got jimmy albertsons TLD race CRF250 bike from when he was on the team, and the neck and welds around the steering stem area was so polished that the ripples in the welds where gone .

so im sure if they said no polishing the frames that welding would also be a no no .

anyone got a link to what the rules actually say?



This isnt to call out anyone on any team im just wondering
Faceaz
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1/3/2012 10:54am Edited Date/Time 1/3/2012 10:54am
He was pretty clear on Pulp. Just welding tabs for the Skid Plates, said the frames are plenty strong & don't need gusseting.
ga_pike
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1/3/2012 10:57am
Back when I was on 80's, Suzuki's were notorious for breaking. We did some welding to strengthen them and it was considered legal because we didn't change the frame geometry itself.
bullpen58
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1/3/2012 11:00am
I always weld extra tubes to my frames and use a grinder to cut big holes in them in other spots. I don't know why I do this other than to make my bikes "custom".
CR250Rider
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1/3/2012 11:23am
Speaking of frames, on another board it was said Ryan Dungey goes through a KTM frame ever 2 days !

The steel frames just aint able to handle the torque of a 450 combined with the abuse a pro puts on them. even a pro as smooth as dungey.
1/3/2012 12:33pm
MXA did an article in the 90s where they actually showed Emig's Kawasaki being stripped of paint, gussets being welded, and the frame being re-powdercoated flo green. There are no voodoo or secrets involved.
TerryK
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1/3/2012 1:05pm
You can't remove anything from a frame, but you can add gussets and brackets. I think it's section 6.1, article i or j. in the AMA pro rulebook.
1/3/2012 1:54pm
TerryK wrote:
You can't remove anything from a frame, but you can add gussets and brackets. I think it's section 6.1, article i or j. in the AMA...
You can't remove anything from a frame, but you can add gussets and brackets. I think it's section 6.1, article i or j. in the AMA pro rulebook.
as i read thru this was going to say the same thing. You can add, just not take away and/or alter geometry

You can do this also with the swingarms.. add, just not take away or change dimensions. (but i know for a fact this one is probably the most 'not followed' rule in the book)
GrapeApe
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1/3/2012 1:57pm
CR250Rider wrote:
Speaking of frames, on another board it was said Ryan Dungey goes through a KTM frame ever 2 days ! The steel frames just aint able...
Speaking of frames, on another board it was said Ryan Dungey goes through a KTM frame ever 2 days !

The steel frames just aint able to handle the torque of a 450 combined with the abuse a pro puts on them. even a pro as smooth as dungey.
You believe that?
KAWboy14
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1/3/2012 2:12pm Edited Date/Time 1/3/2012 2:12pm
CR250Rider wrote:
Speaking of frames, on another board it was said Ryan Dungey goes through a KTM frame ever 2 days ! The steel frames just aint able...
Speaking of frames, on another board it was said Ryan Dungey goes through a KTM frame ever 2 days !

The steel frames just aint able to handle the torque of a 450 combined with the abuse a pro puts on them. even a pro as smooth as dungey.
GrapeApe wrote:
You believe that?
they may be pulling them every 2 days to test them to see how they are holding up and to change things he is requesting....right?
Jakes Dad
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1/3/2012 2:36pm
Yeah KTM never had a rider to test a frame let alone a rider who could stress it like Dungey.Huh
1/3/2012 3:17pm Edited Date/Time 1/3/2012 3:23pm
Ohh well i haddent caught the last few pulp shows

i remember im mxa when nick wey ride for KTM and they said he had to get a new frame every few races.

when i raced kawi 2strokes we stressed cracked frames all the time and re welded them, had to do it on a few steel yamahas also when i races them (all 2strokes )

i just wasnt sure how they did it in pro racing
1/3/2012 3:21pm
KTM goes about setting up their bike totally differently then the japs , the japs make a super riged frame and smaller tubed forkes to get the flexing characteristics they want.

KTM makes a flexy frame with super rigid large tube forks .


i remember travis preston saying the KTM is good outdoors but flexes way to much for supercross (when he rode for them)
Top End
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1/3/2012 3:25pm
CR250Rider wrote:
Speaking of frames, on another board it was said Ryan Dungey goes through a KTM frame ever 2 days ! The steel frames just aint able...
Speaking of frames, on another board it was said Ryan Dungey goes through a KTM frame ever 2 days !

The steel frames just aint able to handle the torque of a 450 combined with the abuse a pro puts on them. even a pro as smooth as dungey.
A frame every two days, I smell pants on fire.
stillwelding
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1/3/2012 4:45pm
HondaFan33 wrote:
Just because they weld the frame doesn't really mean they are changing it. I'm pretty sure the rule about frames deals with keeping the geometry and...
Just because they weld the frame doesn't really mean they are changing it. I'm pretty sure the rule about frames deals with keeping the geometry and all the measurements the same. Have you ever noticed how sloppy some of the welds on a new bike are? They are sent to a welder so they can cut apart the frame and re-weld it to have super perfect welds.
Wow! Where did you learn that piece of information?

I think if you look in the rulebook you'll see what you need.

2011 Rulebook

3.7 Frames
a. The main frame must be the same as an originally homologated
model of the same manufacturer.

b. Cracked or broken frames are prohibited.

c. Strengthening gussets or tubes may be added, but none may be
removed.

d. All stands must be removed.

e. All footrests must fold to a 45-degree angle.

f. The maximum length of the footrest from the pivot point is 5 inches.

g. Footrests may be raised or lowered, but cannot be lower than the
bottom frame tube.

h. Accessory brackets (for radiator, coil, shock reservoir, etc.) may be
changed, relocated, or removed.

i. Engine mount location, steering head, swing arm pivot point, and
rear suspension linkage point must be the same as the homologated
model.

j. Sub-frames may be replaced with aftermarket units of steel,
aluminum or titanium, provided they are similar in design to the
production part and utilize original mounting points.

3.8 Swing Arms

a. Swing arm must be the same as an originally homologated model of
the same manufacturer.

b. Strengthening gussets or tubes may be added, but none may be
removed.

c. Chain guides may be removed or relocated.
TerryK
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1/3/2012 4:47pm
Pretty much every manufacture changes the frame every 2 races, so that's about what, 2 days? Tongue
TerryK
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1/3/2012 4:50pm
HondaFan33 wrote:
Just because they weld the frame doesn't really mean they are changing it. I'm pretty sure the rule about frames deals with keeping the geometry and...
Just because they weld the frame doesn't really mean they are changing it. I'm pretty sure the rule about frames deals with keeping the geometry and all the measurements the same. Have you ever noticed how sloppy some of the welds on a new bike are? They are sent to a welder so they can cut apart the frame and re-weld it to have super perfect welds.
Wow! Where did you learn that piece of information? I think if you look in the rulebook you'll see what you need. 2011 Rulebook 3.7 Frames...
Wow! Where did you learn that piece of information?

I think if you look in the rulebook you'll see what you need.

2011 Rulebook

3.7 Frames
a. The main frame must be the same as an originally homologated
model of the same manufacturer.

b. Cracked or broken frames are prohibited.

c. Strengthening gussets or tubes may be added, but none may be
removed.

d. All stands must be removed.

e. All footrests must fold to a 45-degree angle.

f. The maximum length of the footrest from the pivot point is 5 inches.

g. Footrests may be raised or lowered, but cannot be lower than the
bottom frame tube.

h. Accessory brackets (for radiator, coil, shock reservoir, etc.) may be
changed, relocated, or removed.

i. Engine mount location, steering head, swing arm pivot point, and
rear suspension linkage point must be the same as the homologated
model.

j. Sub-frames may be replaced with aftermarket units of steel,
aluminum or titanium, provided they are similar in design to the
production part and utilize original mounting points.

3.8 Swing Arms

a. Swing arm must be the same as an originally homologated model of
the same manufacturer.

b. Strengthening gussets or tubes may be added, but none may be
removed.

c. Chain guides may be removed or relocated.
Yeah sounds like he pretty much pulled that one out of his ass.
rbigair40
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1/3/2012 5:48pm
Some of the teams were sanding the side beams of the frame for more flex.
1/11/2012 10:25pm
CR250Rider wrote:
Speaking of frames, on another board it was said Ryan Dungey goes through a KTM frame ever 2 days ! The steel frames just aint able...
Speaking of frames, on another board it was said Ryan Dungey goes through a KTM frame ever 2 days !

The steel frames just aint able to handle the torque of a 450 combined with the abuse a pro puts on them. even a pro as smooth as dungey.
Yea... I bet that steel frame is like a twig, nothing can handle the power of the DUNG!!!
Whistling
1/11/2012 10:41pm
Yea... I bet that steel frame is like a twig, nothing can handle the power of the DUNG!!!
Whistling
Where does the 681 in your screen name come from?
1/11/2012 10:45pm
Yea... I bet that steel frame is like a twig, nothing can handle the power of the DUNG!!!
Whistling
Where does the 681 in your screen name come from?
It's just my number backwards, why?
1/11/2012 10:53pm
It's a number of a dude I used to know. He moved out west a while back.

I like to try and find common ground with the RD shit talkers sometimes. Do you race?
1/11/2012 11:11pm
Hahaha I'm not an RD shit talker, I'm just a shit talker in general.
And yup I sure do.

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