Honest question here.

jmar
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 2:44am
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me.

There are 310,093,768 + people here in the US, as of earlier tonight.
Out of those 310 + million, 15 million (high estimate) are illegal.
Out of those 15 million, 20% of those are non hispanic.
That brings the total count of illegal hispanics to 12 million (high estimate).

That accounts for less than 4% of our population. Do you really think that 4% (some working and paying taxes just as you and I) are responsible for all of our economical issues we all face today?

Honest question guy's.
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WhKnuckle
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8/26/2010 7:57pm
Their effect is larger than their population, because their willingness to work for lower wages, coupled with the fact that employers don't have to pay Social Security or provide safe work environments depresses the working conditions and wages of all other workers. And when the entire middle class finds its wages stagnating for a decade or more, then they aren't the kind of customers that drive the overall economy higher. I'm sure that's not the only thing wrong, but I remember when I was in high school, a guy who was good with his hands could make a good living as a carpenter or electrician - now, those jobs pay bare subsistance wages, and the flood of illegal immigrant labor is largely to blame for it. So today's carpenters aren't buying cars and houses and sending their kids to college, because they aren't making what we normally think of a "a living".
aminkman
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8/26/2010 7:57pm
My wife is a teacher. She started back this Monday and told me that the population on her campus (elementry) is 79% hispanic. I see why your take is different because you look at national numbers but it's a real issue here. I don't think they are the problem nationally but they are a large part here.
jmar
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8/26/2010 8:01pm
aminkman wrote:
My wife is a teacher. She started back this Monday and told me that the population on her campus (elementry) is 79% hispanic. I see why...
My wife is a teacher. She started back this Monday and told me that the population on her campus (elementry) is 79% hispanic. I see why your take is different because you look at national numbers but it's a real issue here. I don't think they are the problem nationally but they are a large part here.
Now that's a good honest answer. With that said, TX is # 2 on that list as far as being a state with a high population, and their economy is one of the best in the country.

I fully understand that CA is getting hammered with this problem though.

BTW: My wife is a teacher also.
jmar
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8/26/2010 8:01pm
I am hoping.

The numbers don't lie.

The Shop

jmar
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8/26/2010 8:09pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
Their effect is larger than their population, because their willingness to work for lower wages, coupled with the fact that employers don't have to pay Social...
Their effect is larger than their population, because their willingness to work for lower wages, coupled with the fact that employers don't have to pay Social Security or provide safe work environments depresses the working conditions and wages of all other workers. And when the entire middle class finds its wages stagnating for a decade or more, then they aren't the kind of customers that drive the overall economy higher. I'm sure that's not the only thing wrong, but I remember when I was in high school, a guy who was good with his hands could make a good living as a carpenter or electrician - now, those jobs pay bare subsistance wages, and the flood of illegal immigrant labor is largely to blame for it. So today's carpenters aren't buying cars and houses and sending their kids to college, because they aren't making what we normally think of a "a living".
I have to respectfully disagree with you Sam. A good number of this illegals pay taxes just as you and I do. Their documentation may be false, but they do pay into the system.

As far as cheap labor?

As far as wages in the construction industry? These guys aren't working for cheap like they did years ago. If you want to blame someone for wages on main street, point your blame towards wall street. They fucked each and every one of us for trillions, and are still doing it while I type this post.


jmar
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8/26/2010 8:17pm
I am open to someone to correct me on my numbers. If they were off, it's not going to change the % ratio much one way or the other.
aminkman
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8/26/2010 8:22pm
Yep, your right. My wife is lying because all hispanics fill out census forms.
jmar
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8/26/2010 8:28pm
aminkman wrote:
Yep, your right. My wife is lying because all hispanics fill out census forms.
Aiminkman, I don't believe anyone said your wife is lying. CA is a whole different ballgame.

My wife is a 5th grade teacher, and she has 3 kids that speak english, but not very well. The parents of these kids speak no english.

Imagination is a real problem, it's just not as big of a problem as some ( those not from CA, TX or AZ) on here make it out to be.
aminkman
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8/26/2010 8:44pm
79% shouldn't be the norm but it is at her school.
If they don't speak english by 5th grade and the parents don't speak any than you have a problem and your not acknowledging it.
If your wife's classroom has 30 kids and 3 speak english that's 90% other than english speakers. Seems to support what I said.

aminkman
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8/26/2010 8:47pm
You did.
The only thing that is safe to say is that I can't comment on the hispanic population at the schools that are near you.

jmar
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8/26/2010 8:54pm
aminkman wrote:
79% shouldn't be the norm but it is at her school. If they don't speak english by 5th grade and the parents don't speak any than...
79% shouldn't be the norm but it is at her school.
If they don't speak english by 5th grade and the parents don't speak any than you have a problem and your not acknowledging it.
If your wife's classroom has 30 kids and 3 speak english that's 90% other than english speakers. Seems to support what I said.

Aminkman,

I am not doubting what you said, and I fully understand that you live in a much different state that I do. My point is, it's not a national epidemic, thats taking this country to its knees.

CAs problems are much worse than other states, but as far as looking at this from an economic standpoint. The TX economy is one of the best in the country.

BTW: I grew up in Southern CA and even though it's much different now, it has always had large numbers of hispanics. I went to high school in Bell Gardens, and my last two years there, I lived in Downey.

aminkman
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8/26/2010 9:00pm
It's safe to say that I didn't put 79% to anything but my wife's school.

"Damn man, the census numbers don't even come close to supporting that claim, so either the school your wife works at is in the middle of little mexico, or her numbers, wherever they came from, might be off just a tad?"

Since you know how to google you know that her school isn't in the middle of Mexico.
Everything else you wrote say's that she is lying.

CR250Rider
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8/26/2010 9:14pm
One of the more popular claims by illegal immigration proponents is that those who enter the U.S. by breaking the law are invariably "hard-working" and "law-abiding" once they get here.

That argument, however, has one major flaw. According to Justice Department statistics and the analysis of immigration experts, the "law-abiding" claim often isn't true.

As Investors Business Daily reported in March 2005:

"The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces."
Citing an Urban Institute study, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies Steven Camorata noted in 2004: "Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."

Former California Gov. Pete Wilson places the percentage of illegal aliens in U.S. prisons even higher. In 2001, he told Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly:

"We had problems related to the costs of educating children who were acknowledged to be in the country illegally, healthcare costs. One in five in our prison population were illegal immigrants who had been convicted of a felony after entering the country illegally."

The Federation for American Immigration Reform also turned to the Justice Department to get statistics on criminal aliens. They report:

"In March 2000, Congress made public Department of Justice statistics showing that, over the previous five years, the INS had released over 35,000 criminal aliens instead of deporting them. Over 11,000 of those released went on to commit serious crimes, over 1,800 of which were violent ones [including 98 homicides, 142 sexual assaults, and 44 kidnappings].

"In 2001, thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court, the INS was forced to release into our society over 3,000 criminal aliens [who collectively had been convicted of 125 homicides, 387 sex offenses, and 772 assault charges]."

Up to a third of the U.S. federal prison population is composed of non-citizens, according to Federal Bureau of Prisons statistics - but not all non-citizen prison inmates are illegal aliens.

As to the "hard-working" claim, CIS notes: "The proportion of immigrant-headed households using at least one major welfare program is 24.5 percent compared to 16.3 percent for native households."

Investor's Business Daily concurs: "Once [illegals] get here, they are 50 percent more likely to be on welfare than citizens."

"Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."
aminkman
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8/26/2010 9:15pm
jmar wrote:
Aminkman, I am not doubting what you said, and I fully understand that you live in a much different state that I do. My point is...
Aminkman,

I am not doubting what you said, and I fully understand that you live in a much different state that I do. My point is, it's not a national epidemic, thats taking this country to its knees.

CAs problems are much worse than other states, but as far as looking at this from an economic standpoint. The TX economy is one of the best in the country.

BTW: I grew up in Southern CA and even though it's much different now, it has always had large numbers of hispanics. I went to high school in Bell Gardens, and my last two years there, I lived in Downey.

How long before it's a Texas problem and then a National problem.
Maybe it's time for a visit to SoCal.
I spent 2 years at Ft Sill and I'm sure it's much different there also.
I don't have a bone to pic with you. It's the other 3 that respond only to irritate.
jmar
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8/26/2010 9:17pm
CR250Rider wrote:
One of the more popular claims by illegal immigration proponents is that those who enter the U.S. by breaking the law are invariably "hard-working" and "law-abiding"...
One of the more popular claims by illegal immigration proponents is that those who enter the U.S. by breaking the law are invariably "hard-working" and "law-abiding" once they get here.

That argument, however, has one major flaw. According to Justice Department statistics and the analysis of immigration experts, the "law-abiding" claim often isn't true.

As Investors Business Daily reported in March 2005:

"The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces."
Citing an Urban Institute study, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies Steven Camorata noted in 2004: "Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."

Former California Gov. Pete Wilson places the percentage of illegal aliens in U.S. prisons even higher. In 2001, he told Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly:

"We had problems related to the costs of educating children who were acknowledged to be in the country illegally, healthcare costs. One in five in our prison population were illegal immigrants who had been convicted of a felony after entering the country illegally."

The Federation for American Immigration Reform also turned to the Justice Department to get statistics on criminal aliens. They report:

"In March 2000, Congress made public Department of Justice statistics showing that, over the previous five years, the INS had released over 35,000 criminal aliens instead of deporting them. Over 11,000 of those released went on to commit serious crimes, over 1,800 of which were violent ones [including 98 homicides, 142 sexual assaults, and 44 kidnappings].

"In 2001, thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court, the INS was forced to release into our society over 3,000 criminal aliens [who collectively had been convicted of 125 homicides, 387 sex offenses, and 772 assault charges]."

Up to a third of the U.S. federal prison population is composed of non-citizens, according to Federal Bureau of Prisons statistics - but not all non-citizen prison inmates are illegal aliens.

As to the "hard-working" claim, CIS notes: "The proportion of immigrant-headed households using at least one major welfare program is 24.5 percent compared to 16.3 percent for native households."

Investor's Business Daily concurs: "Once [illegals] get here, they are 50 percent more likely to be on welfare than citizens."

"Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."
Again,

No one is saying that CA doesn't have a problem. This is on a national level.
jmar
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8/26/2010 9:29pm
jmar wrote:
Aminkman, I am not doubting what you said, and I fully understand that you live in a much different state that I do. My point is...
Aminkman,

I am not doubting what you said, and I fully understand that you live in a much different state that I do. My point is, it's not a national epidemic, thats taking this country to its knees.

CAs problems are much worse than other states, but as far as looking at this from an economic standpoint. The TX economy is one of the best in the country.

BTW: I grew up in Southern CA and even though it's much different now, it has always had large numbers of hispanics. I went to high school in Bell Gardens, and my last two years there, I lived in Downey.

aminkman wrote:
How long before it's a Texas problem and then a National problem. Maybe it's time for a visit to SoCal. I spent 2 years at Ft...
How long before it's a Texas problem and then a National problem.
Maybe it's time for a visit to SoCal.
I spent 2 years at Ft Sill and I'm sure it's much different there also.
I don't have a bone to pic with you. It's the other 3 that respond only to irritate.
CAs problems go far beyond the immigration issue. When the economy is good, it's really good in CA. When it's bad, it's really bad also. You guys have it worse than any other state in the US, but with that said, when you throw CA, TX and AZ in the mix, on a national level that 4% is even less. More than 4% for the above mention states, but less for others.

BTW: With the economy in a rut, the numbers of illegals entering are going down from what it was a few years ago. A lot of them are also leaving and heading back home, because of the lack of work.
jmar
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8/26/2010 9:31pm
jmar wrote:
Aminkman, I am not doubting what you said, and I fully understand that you live in a much different state that I do. My point is...
Aminkman,

I am not doubting what you said, and I fully understand that you live in a much different state that I do. My point is, it's not a national epidemic, thats taking this country to its knees.

CAs problems are much worse than other states, but as far as looking at this from an economic standpoint. The TX economy is one of the best in the country.

BTW: I grew up in Southern CA and even though it's much different now, it has always had large numbers of hispanics. I went to high school in Bell Gardens, and my last two years there, I lived in Downey.

aminkman wrote:
How long before it's a Texas problem and then a National problem. Maybe it's time for a visit to SoCal. I spent 2 years at Ft...
How long before it's a Texas problem and then a National problem.
Maybe it's time for a visit to SoCal.
I spent 2 years at Ft Sill and I'm sure it's much different there also.
I don't have a bone to pic with you. It's the other 3 that respond only to irritate.
jmar wrote:
CAs problems go far beyond the immigration issue. When the economy is good, it's really good in CA. When it's bad, it's really bad also. You...
CAs problems go far beyond the immigration issue. When the economy is good, it's really good in CA. When it's bad, it's really bad also. You guys have it worse than any other state in the US, but with that said, when you throw CA, TX and AZ in the mix, on a national level that 4% is even less. More than 4% for the above mention states, but less for others.

BTW: With the economy in a rut, the numbers of illegals entering are going down from what it was a few years ago. A lot of them are also leaving and heading back home, because of the lack of work.
Aminkman,

If I may add, I am in Southern CA quite often.
Frogman
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8/26/2010 9:37pm
jmar wrote:
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me. There...
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me.

There are 310,093,768 + people here in the US, as of earlier tonight.
Out of those 310 + million, 15 million (high estimate) are illegal.
Out of those 15 million, 20% of those are non hispanic.
That brings the total count of illegal hispanics to 12 million (high estimate).

That accounts for less than 4% of our population. Do you really think that 4% (some working and paying taxes just as you and I) are responsible for all of our economical issues we all face today?

Honest question guy's.
Why do you feel the need to make excuses for illegal aliens?
jmar
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8/26/2010 9:43pm
jmar wrote:
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me. There...
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me.

There are 310,093,768 + people here in the US, as of earlier tonight.
Out of those 310 + million, 15 million (high estimate) are illegal.
Out of those 15 million, 20% of those are non hispanic.
That brings the total count of illegal hispanics to 12 million (high estimate).

That accounts for less than 4% of our population. Do you really think that 4% (some working and paying taxes just as you and I) are responsible for all of our economical issues we all face today?

Honest question guy's.
Frogman wrote:
Why do you feel the need to make excuses for illegal aliens?
No excuses. I want to lock down the boarders, change our broken immigration policies, so we have knowledge and control of who comes in and out of our country.

What bothers me about this issue, is that people are so focused on it, they are neglecting the real issues on why this country is in the shape it's in today. It's a diversion to the real problems.
Frogman
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8/26/2010 9:45pm
jmar wrote:
No excuses. I want to lock down the boarders, change our broken immigration policies, so we have knowledge and control of who comes in and out...
No excuses. I want to lock down the boarders, change our broken immigration policies, so we have knowledge and control of who comes in and out of our country.

What bothers me about this issue, is that people are so focused on it, they are neglecting the real issues on why this country is in the shape it's in today. It's a diversion to the real problems.
So everybody has to devote all of thier focus on the one problem that you think is important and ignore all others?
Spinner
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8/26/2010 9:46pm
jmar wrote:
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me. There...
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me.

There are 310,093,768 + people here in the US, as of earlier tonight.
Out of those 310 + million, 15 million (high estimate) are illegal.
Out of those 15 million, 20% of those are non hispanic.
That brings the total count of illegal hispanics to 12 million (high estimate).

That accounts for less than 4% of our population. Do you really think that 4% (some working and paying taxes just as you and I) are responsible for all of our economical issues we all face today?

Honest question guy's.
Frogman wrote:
Why do you feel the need to make excuses for illegal aliens?
Where did he list any "excuses"?
jmar
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8/26/2010 9:50pm
jmar wrote:
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me. There...
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me.

There are 310,093,768 + people here in the US, as of earlier tonight.
Out of those 310 + million, 15 million (high estimate) are illegal.
Out of those 15 million, 20% of those are non hispanic.
That brings the total count of illegal hispanics to 12 million (high estimate).

That accounts for less than 4% of our population. Do you really think that 4% (some working and paying taxes just as you and I) are responsible for all of our economical issues we all face today?

Honest question guy's.
I equate this problem to a guy walking down the street., He walks past a dollar bill to pick up a shinny new penny.

Were getting fuck for trillions and everyone is worried about the hispanic guy mowing the fucking grass.
Frogman
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8/26/2010 9:52pm
jmar wrote:
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me. There...
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me.

There are 310,093,768 + people here in the US, as of earlier tonight.
Out of those 310 + million, 15 million (high estimate) are illegal.
Out of those 15 million, 20% of those are non hispanic.
That brings the total count of illegal hispanics to 12 million (high estimate).

That accounts for less than 4% of our population. Do you really think that 4% (some working and paying taxes just as you and I) are responsible for all of our economical issues we all face today?

Honest question guy's.
Minimizing their effect while painting an optimistic view of thier contribution in order to excuse their illegal presence.
Frogman
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8/26/2010 9:54pm
jmar wrote:
I equate this problem to a guy walking down the street., He walks past a dollar bill to pick up a shinny new penny. Were getting...
I equate this problem to a guy walking down the street., He walks past a dollar bill to pick up a shinny new penny.

Were getting fuck for trillions and everyone is worried about the hispanic guy mowing the fucking grass.
So 290 million people drop what they are doing and every last one of them sit around wringing their hands over wall street because there was a bank bailout....that resulted in DC making money on the stock resale. Even though they passed more legislation to regulate wall street....we can't focus on any other problem...ever?
jmar
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8/26/2010 9:58pm
jmar wrote:
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me. There...
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me.

There are 310,093,768 + people here in the US, as of earlier tonight.
Out of those 310 + million, 15 million (high estimate) are illegal.
Out of those 15 million, 20% of those are non hispanic.
That brings the total count of illegal hispanics to 12 million (high estimate).

That accounts for less than 4% of our population. Do you really think that 4% (some working and paying taxes just as you and I) are responsible for all of our economical issues we all face today?

Honest question guy's.
Frogman wrote:
Minimizing their effect while painting an optimistic view of thier contribution in order to excuse their illegal presence.
: Minimizing their effect

I welcome you to correct my numbers if they're wrong.
Like I said, if the numbers are off one way or the other, the percentage ratio isn't going to change much.
Frogman
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8/26/2010 9:59pm Edited Date/Time 8/26/2010 10:00pm
jmar wrote:
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me. There...
I hope no one takes this personal, because it's not meant to be, and If I am wrong, then please feel free to correct me.

There are 310,093,768 + people here in the US, as of earlier tonight.
Out of those 310 + million, 15 million (high estimate) are illegal.
Out of those 15 million, 20% of those are non hispanic.
That brings the total count of illegal hispanics to 12 million (high estimate).

That accounts for less than 4% of our population. Do you really think that 4% (some working and paying taxes just as you and I) are responsible for all of our economical issues we all face today?

Honest question guy's.
Frogman wrote:
Minimizing their effect while painting an optimistic view of thier contribution in order to excuse their illegal presence.
jmar wrote:
[i]: Minimizing their effect [/i] I welcome you to correct my numbers if they're wrong. Like I said, if the numbers are off one way or...
: Minimizing their effect

I welcome you to correct my numbers if they're wrong.
Like I said, if the numbers are off one way or the other, the percentage ratio isn't going to change much.
You are saying 15 million criminals wandering around is no big deal. Looks like minimizing to me.
jmar
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8/26/2010 10:01pm
jmar wrote:
I equate this problem to a guy walking down the street., He walks past a dollar bill to pick up a shinny new penny. Were getting...
I equate this problem to a guy walking down the street., He walks past a dollar bill to pick up a shinny new penny.

Were getting fuck for trillions and everyone is worried about the hispanic guy mowing the fucking grass.
Frogman wrote:
So 290 million people drop what they are doing and every last one of them sit around wringing their hands over wall street because there was...
So 290 million people drop what they are doing and every last one of them sit around wringing their hands over wall street because there was a bank bailout....that resulted in DC making money on the stock resale. Even though they passed more legislation to regulate wall street....we can't focus on any other problem...ever?
Well now

If all is well, and everyone paid back their bailout money, and our government made money off of the deal, then all should be well, correct?

Frogman
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8/26/2010 10:05pm
jmar wrote:
Well now If all is well, and everyone paid back their bailout money, and our government made money off of the deal, then all should be...
Well now

If all is well, and everyone paid back their bailout money, and our government made money off of the deal, then all should be well, correct?

That is one of many situations to be aware of. Illegal immigration is another. Normal people can consider many different problems over the course of a week/month.
jmar
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8/26/2010 10:07pm
Frogman wrote:
Minimizing their effect while painting an optimistic view of thier contribution in order to excuse their illegal presence.
jmar wrote:
[i]: Minimizing their effect [/i] I welcome you to correct my numbers if they're wrong. Like I said, if the numbers are off one way or...
: Minimizing their effect

I welcome you to correct my numbers if they're wrong.
Like I said, if the numbers are off one way or the other, the percentage ratio isn't going to change much.
Frogman wrote:
You are saying 15 million criminals wandering around is no big deal. Looks like minimizing to me.
I agree, they are breaking the law, but you, I and every single one of us break the law on a daily basis, so don't get so "Holier Than Thou" talking about others.

Post a reply to: Honest question here.

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