Seat Bounce. Fact or Fiction?

WhipMeister
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3/12/2009 5:58pm
It's on, like Donkey Kong
WhipMeister
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3/12/2009 6:00pm
Let me see if I can turn up the turbo boost on this thread....it's around here somewhere.....
WhipMeister
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3/12/2009 6:22pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:54pm
Ah, here it is.


Somebody please





(10 pager, fo sho, now)
WORCSRacer
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3/12/2009 6:31pm
Ah, here it is. Somebody please (10 pager, fo sho, now)
Ah, here it is.


Somebody please





(10 pager, fo sho, now)
Bruhn says that is an optical illusion.

The Shop

Racetime
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3/12/2009 6:35pm
Ah, here it is. Somebody please (10 pager, fo sho, now)
Ah, here it is.


Somebody please





(10 pager, fo sho, now)
Too easy.

Watch someone do it and they wheelie a bit off the first table, then let the rear wheel drop a little and clip the face of the last jump. The suspension is so good they hardly feel it. The second arc on the sketch is not curved right.

Also when they are on the first table, they are driving hard for speed, not "bouncing." The faster you do it, the less wheel drop so its smoother.
Void Main
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3/12/2009 6:42pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:54pm
Ah, here it is. Somebody please (10 pager, fo sho, now)
Ah, here it is.


Somebody please





(10 pager, fo sho, now)
WORCSRacer wrote:
Bruhn says that is an optical illusion.



Void Main
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3/12/2009 6:48pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:54pm



Racetime
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Void Main wrote:



See the power of the spring!

Smile
Void Main
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3/12/2009 7:11pm
WORCSRacer wrote:




Chad's technique on this jump is perfectly described and shown in this clip...
Racetime wrote:
Good video, incorrect explanation. The subject technique is the opposite of a seat bounce. He's getting his CG high instead of low. This minimizes the amount...
Good video, incorrect explanation.

The subject technique is the opposite of a seat bounce. He's getting his CG high instead of low. This minimizes the amount of work required to get over the jump. Less work required equals less energy consumed. Its done to stay low and maintain horizontal momentum.

"Seat bounces" are when you get your weight low, forcing the bike/rider to require more work to get past the jump. Mork work means more energy consumed (actually, translated to increase vertical momentum).

To seat bounce, what you are doing by staying low on the face of a jump is is forcing the system to translate more horizontal momentum to vertical. You could do it without a spring.

The amount of energy released by the spring is equal to the amount of energy consumed in compressing it. The balance is zero. That's why airplanes have wings and engines and not springs.

Notice in the pics, the wheel is at the rear fender, but Reed is standing up. The rebound is exactly the same as if he were sitting and leaning back to "seat bounce." It is impossible that in one case the bike stays level and in one case it leaps up due to the spring when the wheel does exactly the same thing each time relative to the bike.

Its amazing how far an incorrect explanation of physics will go!
I would agree with you if you are talking about the 1st half of that video but in the second half he describes what I think you are talking about. Just not sure you watched the video to the end. If so I am confused by how what you describe is different than the second half of the video.
Void Main
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3/12/2009 7:44pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:54pm



Void Main
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3/12/2009 7:56pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:54pm



3/12/2009 8:56pm
Actually to do the single to table to table you jump as far as possible to the opposite edge of the table... that "hop" that your bike does when it lands helps you get the lift to get over the obstacles.

I know this for a fact, there was an obstacle just like this that I was struggling with. I was landing on the closest edge and trying to drive off it, almost wadding everytime.

Good rider told me to jump all the way to opposite edge and let the bike do the work.

Believe it or not it worked.
Motodave
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3/12/2009 9:23pm
i have actually bunny hoped a 110 before if that counts.
WhipMeister
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3/12/2009 9:24pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:54pm
Racetime wrote:
Too easy. Watch someone do it and they wheelie a bit off the first table, then let the rear wheel drop a little and clip the...
Too easy.

Watch someone do it and they wheelie a bit off the first table, then let the rear wheel drop a little and clip the face of the last jump. The suspension is so good they hardly feel it. The second arc on the sketch is not curved right.

Also when they are on the first table, they are driving hard for speed, not "bouncing." The faster you do it, the less wheel drop so its smoother.
This is too easy.

Show us where Grant did a wheelie in Bercy. Rear wheel doesn't clip the lip, especially in the last sequence, when they both do it.

(I think you were there.)

Hell of an optical illusion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtawj3shSzE

Motodave
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3/12/2009 9:49pm
This is too easy. Show us where Grant did a wheelie in Bercy. Rear wheel doesn't clip the lip, especially in the last sequence, when they...
This is too easy.

Show us where Grant did a wheelie in Bercy. Rear wheel doesn't clip the lip, especially in the last sequence, when they both do it.

(I think you were there.)

Hell of an optical illusion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtawj3shSzE

His rear wheel does clip the lip..if you look at the jump you can see where it is worn from people clipping the lip with there tires.
WhipMeister
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3/12/2009 10:03pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:54pm
Fair enough. How about this one? (From the last sequence).




Or, this from the same lap





BTW, Newtonian physics says that Grant should augur in - front wheel, rear wheel, some part of him and his bike - a few FEET below the lip, in the absence of some upward, gravity-defying, force (IOW, shoot a 300lb bowling ball level flat off the top of the first table at 40mph and see where it impacts the second).

JB 19
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3/12/2009 10:07pm
All I know is that the higher I jump on a trampoline the higher I will end up going....because I am coming into contact with the trampoline with more force. If I bend my legs and push off at the last instant as I contact the tramp this will also make me go higher. Its about cheating to get more force that you actually have. (making yourself heavier than you are) I start running into diminishing returns as the trampoline begins stretching closer to its limit.

This isn't something that I just "feel" but isn't happening....It can be measured by how high you jump on the trampoline.

Opposite of absorbing the bike on take off. Here you absorb the bike with your legs making yourself "lighter" than you are.

Same thing with steady throttle going off a jump vs gasing it real hard. Its not so much the acceleration, but when you gas it you are driving the bike in to the ground harder...more force...making the package of bike and rider "weigh more."

Rim Lock
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3/13/2009 12:43am
I learned this in college.
If you want to know how a spring works, then you have to know something about Hookes Law.

Although many here, especially TFS, will debate this to dead, if you compress a spring it will then have stored energy.
When the compression is released, it expands energy.

Explains the seat bounce to a T.


http://www.4physics.com/phy_demo/HookesLaw/SlopeK.gif
Racetime
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3/13/2009 4:20am
Fair enough. How about this one? (From the last sequence). Or, this from the same lap BTW, Newtonian physics says that Grant should augur in -...
Fair enough. How about this one? (From the last sequence).




Or, this from the same lap





BTW, Newtonian physics says that Grant should augur in - front wheel, rear wheel, some part of him and his bike - a few FEET below the lip, in the absence of some upward, gravity-defying, force (IOW, shoot a 300lb bowling ball level flat off the top of the first table at 40mph and see where it impacts the second).

All this is simply wishing for a gap in the law of physics that isn't there. (Praying for a miracle.)

His real wheel clearly drops. Gravity does not stop working. The chart showing the bike arc after the tabletop is wrong.

It is possible to get across the gap without the rear wheel dropping enough to clip the jump hard due to speed. The faster you do it, the less time the wheel has to drop.

Also, due to the angle of the camera, you can't show the first table to be flat with the horizontal. That is only an assumption required to make a "miricale."

Nice try.

Whippy has been trying this ever since he flipped out at me and got abusive over losing a seat bounce argument years ago, which he says he doesn't remember... Smile


Racetime
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3/13/2009 4:49am

.


All you guys that keep "discovering" Hooke's law need to understand it.

You are neglecting damping, which is shown by R above.

Hooke's law applies to an "ideal" spring with no losses and no damping.

If you press the mass M against the wall, the spring pushes back, but the damper slows the motion and there is the equation to figure it out....
Void Main
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3/13/2009 7:03am
Actually you can bunny hop a motorcycle as well but to a much lesser extent. I do it all the time when play riding in the woods and bunny hop over puddles etc.
Void Main
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3/13/2009 7:10am Edited Date/Time 3/13/2009 7:21am
Actually to do the single to table to table you jump as far as possible to the opposite edge of the table... that "hop" that your...
Actually to do the single to table to table you jump as far as possible to the opposite edge of the table... that "hop" that your bike does when it lands helps you get the lift to get over the obstacles.

I know this for a fact, there was an obstacle just like this that I was struggling with. I was landing on the closest edge and trying to drive off it, almost wadding everytime.

Good rider told me to jump all the way to opposite edge and let the bike do the work.

Believe it or not it worked.
I agree. I don't know why people are trying to say this can't happen. These same people must say you can't ride a pogo stick. I just don't get the argument. You can pogo your bike similar to the way you pogo a pogo stick. What's so hard to understand (unless you've never done either)? You can "bounce" on a spring for crying out loud. Sure the shock dampens that bounce effect considerably but when compressed it still returns to it's original shape which gives you some upward motion to help your fight against gravity. Now the spring is not doing all of the work there are other forces and movements that take place to load up that spring in the first place. A 200 pound bike plus a 180 pound rider falling a few feet should be able to load that spring up sufficiently to be able to use some of that energy that is released when the spring returns for other things (such as hopping a table to table).

Someone mentioned a trampoline. You are basically bouncing on a spring (or many small springs) when you use a trampoline. How high can you bounce on a trampoline with springs vs a trampoline with no springs?
peelout719
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3/13/2009 7:57am
peelout719 wrote:
i seat bounced my chick this morning before leaving for work.

fact.
Slow ~ Pro wrote:
Yeah, but you didn't get her to the Checkered flag !

DNF !!!
hell know i didn't get HER to the checkers... that's why they are called quickies/heat races. the main event was later in the day Smile

i crossed the finish line and that's all that mattered at that point in time
flarider
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3/13/2009 8:21am
Pogo sticks and trampolines are not dampened
If a shock was capable of springing bike and rider off the ground and over a jump, why does the same bike not flip ass over end in the whoops?
Because the shock is dampened

If you press down on the seat of a bike with enough force and release it, will the bike leap off the ground?
No, it doesn't
Because the shock is dampened

Some of you constantly and consistently leave out that one important fact.
SEEMEFIRST
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3/13/2009 8:28am
OK, is it "Dampened", or "Damped"?
txmxer
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3/13/2009 8:29am
flarider wrote:
Pogo sticks and trampolines are not dampened If a shock was capable of springing bike and rider off the ground and over a jump, why does...
Pogo sticks and trampolines are not dampened
If a shock was capable of springing bike and rider off the ground and over a jump, why does the same bike not flip ass over end in the whoops?
Because the shock is dampened

If you press down on the seat of a bike with enough force and release it, will the bike leap off the ground?
No, it doesn't
Because the shock is dampened

Some of you constantly and consistently leave out that one important fact.
If a shock was capable of springing bike and rider off the ground and over a jump, why does the same bike not flip ass over end in the whoops?

You've never seen this happen? I think I remember seeing it a few times...are you new to MX? Smile The only reason it doesn't happen more often is the rider is altering his body position. Ever see someone go through a set of whoops like a see saw because they went too slow?

If someone goes blazing into the whoops leaning back with legs locked and arms locked (i.e., static position) you think they'll make it through with out endoing or looping out?


flarider
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SEEMEFIRST wrote:
OK, is it "Dampened", or "Damped"?
It's damped
My bad
I have a cold and feel like shit
Dean
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3/13/2009 8:32am
Dave should be clicked for starting this thread


Fast or Fiction
Void Main
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3/13/2009 8:33am Edited Date/Time 3/13/2009 8:40am
flarider wrote:
Pogo sticks and trampolines are not dampened If a shock was capable of springing bike and rider off the ground and over a jump, why does...
Pogo sticks and trampolines are not dampened
If a shock was capable of springing bike and rider off the ground and over a jump, why does the same bike not flip ass over end in the whoops?
Because the shock is dampened

If you press down on the seat of a bike with enough force and release it, will the bike leap off the ground?
No, it doesn't
Because the shock is dampened

Some of you constantly and consistently leave out that one important fact.
If you re-read my post you will see that I did not leave out that important fact. I specifically mentioned that the shock does in fact dampen the rebound. Even so it does not stop the rebound from happening, it just happens at a slower pace. This upward movement does "lighten" the bike at the end of the rebound making it easier to use the other forces you might use in a bunny hop and it's much like the action of a hop on a pogo stick. It's what allows me to bunny hop a puddle in the woods.

I would not be able to bunny hop a 200 pound bike that had a solid suspension over a puddle but because I can load up the spring and get "some" help from the rebound I am able to lift if off the ground and over the puddle by rapidly moving from a standing position to a sitting position which squats the bike and loads up the spring then immediately going back to a standing position much like you would do if you would jump off the ground without any bike under you.

The rebounding of the suspension makes the bike light under you when your legs reach their maximum extension, enough so that you can coax it off the ground slightly (or more accurately keep it from dropping as much), enough to clear a puddle without making a splash. Without doing the hop (using the suspension for help) you would splash all the water out of the puddle. If you don't believe me go try it.
Soozie125
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3/13/2009 8:33am
flarider wrote:
Pogo sticks and trampolines are not dampened If a shock was capable of springing bike and rider off the ground and over a jump, why does...
Pogo sticks and trampolines are not dampened
If a shock was capable of springing bike and rider off the ground and over a jump, why does the same bike not flip ass over end in the whoops?
Because the shock is dampened

If you press down on the seat of a bike with enough force and release it, will the bike leap off the ground?
No, it doesn't
Because the shock is dampened

Some of you constantly and consistently leave out that one important fact.
You realize you can adjust that dampening right?

You turn the dampening all the way out on a dirtbike and it will literally throw you over the bars in a set of whoops.

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