How will we ever know who is the fastest rider with multiple classes?

The Truth Bringer 9/10/2015 9:30am
9/10/2015 9:30am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 9:38am
Johnny Depp wrote:
So which of the 8 or so Championships in MX do you happen to regard as the "Champion"? Welcome to the conversation Michael. I have a...
So which of the 8 or so Championships in MX do you happen to regard as the "Champion"?

Welcome to the conversation Michael. I have a tremendous respect for your knowledge and testing abilities.
The Truth Bringer wrote:
How can you not understand the top supercross racer in the world comes from the 450 class series? The other problem can never be fixed because...
How can you not understand the top supercross racer in the world comes from the 450 class series?
The other problem can never be fixed because both promoters like making money, but those two come from the 450 class as well.
Johnny Depp wrote:
And you know this how? At last years Monster Energy Cup the 2nd fastest lap of the night was by Dean Wilson on a 250. You...
And you know this how? At last years Monster Energy Cup the 2nd fastest lap of the night was by Dean Wilson on a 250. You will find dozens of similar scenarios over the years.

Now when your friends and wife ask why is there 2 classes running the same speeds "who is the fastest?" what excuse do you use to justify it?



I'd tell her guys in AAA baseball sometimes throw as fast as top level pros. We call them prospects and they're someone to watch out for in the future. Similar situation here. That kid showed a flash of brilliance, but it's highly unlikely he will do that at every race. That's why he's a prospect in the development class.

All sports have a way of finding upcoming prospects and these prospects will always show signs that they can play in the big leagues.
The Truth Bringer 9/10/2015 9:32am
9/10/2015 9:32am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 9:36am
Bob693 wrote:
NASCAR seems to do just fine with the Xfinity series and their premier class Sprint Cup.
Johnny Depp wrote:
You might notice that they are separate events on different days..
That's only because the races last all day. If the race only lasted 20 laps then most likely they have them on the same day.
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mauidex 9/10/2015 9:37am
9/10/2015 9:37am
"you cannot match wits with an unarmed man" Tongue
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 9:47am
9/10/2015 9:47am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 12:39pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
And you know this how? At last years Monster Energy Cup the 2nd fastest lap of the night was by Dean Wilson on a 250. You...
And you know this how? At last years Monster Energy Cup the 2nd fastest lap of the night was by Dean Wilson on a 250. You will find dozens of similar scenarios over the years.

Now when your friends and wife ask why is there 2 classes running the same speeds "who is the fastest?" what excuse do you use to justify it?



RG1 wrote:
Wilson rode a 450 at the Monster Cup. There is a natural progression through the sport on both sides of the pond. In America, from the...
Wilson rode a 450 at the Monster Cup.

There is a natural progression through the sport on both sides of the pond. In America, from the amateurs, through the 250 class and into the 'premier' 450 class. In Europe from the amateurs, into the European and then through MX2 and into MXGP. It works well, and there is no reason to change it. Each stage is very competitive and more importantly is very good to watch.
Oops, Las Vegas Finals.

There is no meaningful defined advancement.
If you are one of the 22 fastest riders you should be in the Finals.

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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 9:55am
9/10/2015 9:55am
Bob693 wrote:
NASCAR seems to do just fine with the Xfinity series and their premier class Sprint Cup.
Johnny Depp wrote:
You might notice that they are separate events on different days..
The Truth Bringer wrote:
That's only because the races last all day. If the race only lasted 20 laps then most likely they have them on the same day.
TV guide alots 3 hrs. 30 minutes for Nascar
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mauidex 9/10/2015 9:58am
9/10/2015 9:58am
Johnny Depp wrote:
TV guide alots 3 hrs. 30 minutes for Nascar
thats the broadcast.............you really don;t know shit about much do you???? there is practice, inspections, tons of pre race stuff............you just are missing all of the other posters points...........several MOTOSPORTS in the world do things just like us
The Truth Bringer 9/10/2015 10:00am
9/10/2015 10:00am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 10:01am
Johnny Depp wrote:
You might notice that they are separate events on different days..
The Truth Bringer wrote:
That's only because the races last all day. If the race only lasted 20 laps then most likely they have them on the same day.
Johnny Depp wrote:
TV guide alots 3 hrs. 30 minutes for Nascar
Yep, for a single race on one channel. That does not include pre-race broadcast, practice, qualifying etc etc etc.

What would two races like that run you?
That's why it's split between multiple days for the two races.
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 10:09am
9/10/2015 10:09am
Most sporting events have a similar time window. The question to me is do you want to put your best entertainment on it, or advancement classes (that look like the same bike on TV) and last chance qualifiers?
Kevin Reynolds 9/10/2015 10:12am
9/10/2015 10:12am
Johnny Depp perhaps you should become a fan of Drag Racing! That's where being quickest and fastest is necessary on a consistent basis for you to be the champion! Not so much in motocross, as being fastest on the track for a lap or two doesn't always get you to the finish line first! With your logic why even race, just crown the number one qualifier at the champion since he is the fastest!
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mauidex 9/10/2015 10:16am
9/10/2015 10:16am
you know dude you are just beating a dead horse..........yep then maybe just shitcan a whole supercross and just have two differnet shows, if network buys that

MotoGP, and F1, and NASCAR all have multiple classes with multiple broadcasts...........pretty simple really.........different engines, different displacements..............

and due to the type of racing and tracks unlikely that times are equal, except maybe in Nascar at some tracks probably 10ths different

get your point and your opinion, but your argument has nothing to do with why the sport is where it is in comparison to others
The Truth Bringer 9/10/2015 10:22am
9/10/2015 10:22am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Most sporting events have a similar time window. The question to me is do you want to put your best entertainment on it, or advancement classes...
Most sporting events have a similar time window. The question to me is do you want to put your best entertainment on it, or advancement classes (that look like the same bike on TV) and last chance qualifiers?
How long is the supercross broadcast?
You need to be able to fill that time with enough racing to keep fans interested and not ripped off while also maintaining some type of health for the racers. You can't have the 450 guys racing for 3 hours and 30 minutes and expect them to stay healthy for 16 rounds of SX and 12 outdoors. They struggle to keep the guys healthy with the limited time they spend on the track. You need all those races and both classes to have a product where people don't feel ripped off and racers feel they can stay healthy for.
The Truth Bringer 9/10/2015 10:36am
9/10/2015 10:36am
I feel like if your wife can't figure out the class structure within 2 or 3 years you might think about trading her in for a new one because their are much harder problems in life and she's not equipped to handle them.
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Bob693 9/10/2015 10:50am
9/10/2015 10:50am
Bob693 wrote:
NASCAR seems to do just fine with the Xfinity series and their premier class Sprint Cup.
Johnny Depp wrote:
You might notice that they are separate events on different days..
They're usually held the same weekend at the same track, kinda hard to run races that are hours long the same day. And what does that have to do with knowing who the fastest is?
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 11:27am
9/10/2015 11:27am
The Truth Bringer wrote:
I feel like if your wife can't figure out the class structure within 2 or 3 years you might think about trading her in for a...
I feel like if your wife can't figure out the class structure within 2 or 3 years you might think about trading her in for a new one because their are much harder problems in life and she's not equipped to handle them.
Oh she's figured it out decades ago. There is about 30 minutes worth watching.
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 11:30am
9/10/2015 11:30am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 11:38am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Most sporting events have a similar time window. The question to me is do you want to put your best entertainment on it, or advancement classes...
Most sporting events have a similar time window. The question to me is do you want to put your best entertainment on it, or advancement classes (that look like the same bike on TV) and last chance qualifiers?
The Truth Bringer wrote:
How long is the supercross broadcast? You need to be able to fill that time with enough racing to keep fans interested and not ripped off...
How long is the supercross broadcast?
You need to be able to fill that time with enough racing to keep fans interested and not ripped off while also maintaining some type of health for the racers. You can't have the 450 guys racing for 3 hours and 30 minutes and expect them to stay healthy for 16 rounds of SX and 12 outdoors. They struggle to keep the guys healthy with the limited time they spend on the track. You need all those races and both classes to have a product where people don't feel ripped off and racers feel they can stay healthy for.
Here is some math to help you. If a moto (SX) is 20 minutes.

1=20
2=40
3=60

The same as outdoors. 3 gate drops for everybody that makes it to the final.

The advancement class should be more visually defined. Mini bikes.

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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 11:35am
9/10/2015 11:35am
Bob693 wrote:
NASCAR seems to do just fine with the Xfinity series and their premier class Sprint Cup.
Johnny Depp wrote:
You might notice that they are separate events on different days..
Bob693 wrote:
They're usually held the same weekend at the same track, kinda hard to run races that are hours long the same day. And what does that...
They're usually held the same weekend at the same track, kinda hard to run races that are hours long the same day. And what does that have to do with knowing who the fastest is?
Having the fastest together.
The Narrator 9/10/2015 11:36am
9/10/2015 11:36am
Threads really take off when two guys engage in mortal kombat. That's the usual progression. You want someone to call someone else a motherfucker by about page 3.
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mauidex 9/10/2015 11:40am
9/10/2015 11:40am
well if you're theory is correct we're a page late Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 11:43am
9/10/2015 11:43am
It's a concept, and idea, a proposal. When people don't understand it you need to define it and defend it. Not mortal kombat, just a conversation.

Name calling is usually resorted to when you don't have a better argument or debate.

Then again, you could just not click on it..

I'm probably at least a cup of coffee over my limit and need to find something more productive to do with my day off..
Like get ready to race Rio Bravo this weekend in D20 if it's not getting rained out about now.

Kevin Reynolds 9/10/2015 11:44am
9/10/2015 11:44am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Most sporting events have a similar time window. The question to me is do you want to put your best entertainment on it, or advancement classes...
Most sporting events have a similar time window. The question to me is do you want to put your best entertainment on it, or advancement classes (that look like the same bike on TV) and last chance qualifiers?
The Truth Bringer wrote:
How long is the supercross broadcast? You need to be able to fill that time with enough racing to keep fans interested and not ripped off...
How long is the supercross broadcast?
You need to be able to fill that time with enough racing to keep fans interested and not ripped off while also maintaining some type of health for the racers. You can't have the 450 guys racing for 3 hours and 30 minutes and expect them to stay healthy for 16 rounds of SX and 12 outdoors. They struggle to keep the guys healthy with the limited time they spend on the track. You need all those races and both classes to have a product where people don't feel ripped off and racers feel they can stay healthy for.
Johnny Depp wrote:
Here is some math to help you. If a moto (SX) is 20 minutes. 1=20 2=40 3=60 The same as outdoors. 3 gate drops for everybody...
Here is some math to help you. If a moto (SX) is 20 minutes.

1=20
2=40
3=60

The same as outdoors. 3 gate drops for everybody that makes it to the final.

The advancement class should be more visually defined. Mini bikes.

And you want Million Dollar purses huh!
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 11:48am
9/10/2015 11:48am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 12:41pm
The Truth Bringer wrote:
How long is the supercross broadcast? You need to be able to fill that time with enough racing to keep fans interested and not ripped off...
How long is the supercross broadcast?
You need to be able to fill that time with enough racing to keep fans interested and not ripped off while also maintaining some type of health for the racers. You can't have the 450 guys racing for 3 hours and 30 minutes and expect them to stay healthy for 16 rounds of SX and 12 outdoors. They struggle to keep the guys healthy with the limited time they spend on the track. You need all those races and both classes to have a product where people don't feel ripped off and racers feel they can stay healthy for.
Johnny Depp wrote:
Here is some math to help you. If a moto (SX) is 20 minutes. 1=20 2=40 3=60 The same as outdoors. 3 gate drops for everybody...
Here is some math to help you. If a moto (SX) is 20 minutes.

1=20
2=40
3=60

The same as outdoors. 3 gate drops for everybody that makes it to the final.

The advancement class should be more visually defined. Mini bikes.

Kevin Reynolds wrote:
And you want Million Dollar purses huh!
Once again some math:

4 quarterfinals
2 semifinals
1 final (or more?)
7 races that matter.

Right now there are 3. 2 heats and a main.

If you are selling action sports you could always use more action.

Let some kid fresh out of Loretta's beat some name riders on a 250 and watch the stands fill up for the next race.
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mauidex 9/10/2015 11:52am
9/10/2015 11:52am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Once again some math: 4 quarterfinals 2 semifinals 1 final (or more?) 7 races that matter. Right now there are 3. 2 heats and a main...
Once again some math:

4 quarterfinals
2 semifinals
1 final (or more?)
7 races that matter.

Right now there are 3. 2 heats and a main.

If you are selling action sports you could always use more action.

Let some kid fresh out of Loretta's beat some name riders on a 250 and watch the stands fill up for the next race.
there are at least 2 heats now............so what is difference between a heat and a quarterfinal??????

2 semis..............a main

but now youre changing direction...............what is the agenda.........I'm confused?!??!?
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 12:05pm
9/10/2015 12:05pm Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 12:13pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
Once again some math: 4 quarterfinals 2 semifinals 1 final (or more?) 7 races that matter. Right now there are 3. 2 heats and a main...
Once again some math:

4 quarterfinals
2 semifinals
1 final (or more?)
7 races that matter.

Right now there are 3. 2 heats and a main.

If you are selling action sports you could always use more action.

Let some kid fresh out of Loretta's beat some name riders on a 250 and watch the stands fill up for the next race.
mauidex wrote:
there are at least 2 heats now............so what is difference between a heat and a quarterfinal?????? 2 semis..............a main but now youre changing direction...............what is the...
there are at least 2 heats now............so what is difference between a heat and a quarterfinal??????

2 semis..............a main

but now youre changing direction...............what is the agenda.........I'm confused?!??!?
I just realized I earlier called a heat a semi, Oops, sorry. Do you see how confusing the terminology is?

Thanks for asking, sometimes I assume people understand the meaning when they are far from it.

4 Quarterfinals meaning 4 different unseeded races entailing the entire night show field (lets say 88 riders)
Only 11 of the 22 in each quarterfinals would advance. Finish 12th and go home for the night. (If you are tired of runaway championships this alone could stir things up)

2 Semifinals of 22 riders each (44 still left) of which 11 advance from each to the Final

1 (or more?) Final consisting of the final 22 remaining (alternates could move up for a full gate)

Run anything you want including an 85, 2t or 4t, electric, whatever. If you think that is your best chance go for it.
No Production rule or Homolgation. Let the Euros and electrics in. No weight limit. Let's see some development.

Sometimes one question leads to another, I know this takes the thread off the course of multiple classes. But if you get rid of classes....
The Truth Bringer 9/10/2015 1:27pm
9/10/2015 1:27pm
You get rid of jobs. Factory teams have stated in the past if they only have one class to support, they're still only supporting two riders or however many they support now. Anyone not interested in racing an entire series quits and what have we gained?
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 2:21pm
9/10/2015 2:21pm Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 2:48pm
Quitters quit. Winners win.

If you make a successful series grow you will have to sort out riders by zip code or something(humor). There will be more entries than places to fit in. Unlike now where at the end of the series they can't fill the gate.
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ML512 9/10/2015 2:26pm
9/10/2015 2:26pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
So which of the 8 or so Championships in MX do you happen to regard as the "Champion"? Welcome to the conversation Michael. I have a...
So which of the 8 or so Championships in MX do you happen to regard as the "Champion"?

Welcome to the conversation Michael. I have a tremendous respect for your knowledge and testing abilities.
I'm staying further out of this because I think it's a ridiculous comparison. While moto is very athletic, I still see it primarily as a form of motorsport, and all forms of motorsports have varying racing series and levels to allow people to compete and make a living. The amount of racers making a living is already thin enough, let alone if we cut it down to nothing. I can't see in any feasible way how thinning out the classes is going to increase let alone keep the current amount of rides there are. I never want to see Motocross compared to football or baseball.. they both bore the hell out of me. Laughing

Any who, everyone behave themselves... I'm out of this one.
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mauidex 9/10/2015 2:40pm
9/10/2015 2:40pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
Quitters quit. Winners win. If you make a successful series grow you will have to sort out riders by zip code or something(humor). There will be...
Quitters quit. Winners win.

If you make a successful series grow you will have to sort out riders by zip code or something(humor). There will be more entries than places to fit in. Unlike now where at the end of the series they can't fill the gate.
when did they legalize pot in texas???? Woohoo Woohoo
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 2:47pm
9/10/2015 2:47pm
No problem and thanks for dropping by.

The proposal would not require less riders. They would just all compete against each other. I recognize the possibility exists that the size of teams could shrink. (Many that are burning cash would perceive this as a benefit).

The opposite could also be true, if you fill the stadiums there would be intense competition to have your product on the podium, even for a quarterfinal.

The comparison to other forms of sport must be recognized when you talk about economics. These days it could be just about anything that draws a crowd that you compete against. F1, X-Games, Concerts, sporting events etc.
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brimx153 9/10/2015 3:05pm
9/10/2015 3:05pm
brimx153 wrote:
Anyone who thinks James would of beat rc. On a 125 , for a championship outdoors Is stupid .
motogrady wrote:
Hey guy, for a series long championship, I didn't say that. He couldn't do it on a 250. But let me tell you, on that track...
Hey guy, for a series long championship, I didn't say that.
He couldn't do it on a 250.

But let me tell you, on that track, that day, Stew was just on another level of, well, everyone.
i was nt talking to you . was talking to jonny depp. he said that in 01 and 02 ,03 no one in the world could touch JS7 .and his stupid point of the thread is if JS7 had of been in the big class that year he would of won the championship . which is complete bull . not saying JS7 would not have won races like he did against RC. but the for most races outdoors RC handled JS7 pretty easy . on a 125 it would of been the same . why would it be any different ?
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 3:08pm
9/10/2015 3:08pm Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 3:12pm
I never said that, but how do you know? Wouldn't it have been great to see it settled on the track? The fact that it is even being discussed confirms the possibility that he could have been a threat. Why should a threat to the GOAT be in a "development?" class anyway when he is better than 95% of the pro's in the world at the time for sure.

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