How will we ever know who is the fastest rider with multiple classes?

motogrady
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motogrady 9/10/2015 7:55am
9/10/2015 7:55am

Well, in the USA it's Flyin Ryan Dungey in 2015.

In The Old Country, ahhh........who is it over there in the 450s?
motogrady
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motogrady 9/10/2015 7:58am
9/10/2015 7:58am
brimx153 wrote:
Anyone who thinks James would of beat rc. On a 125 , for a championship outdoors Is stupid .
Hey guy, for a series long championship, I didn't say that.
He couldn't do it on a 250.

But let me tell you, on that track, that day, Stew was just on another level of, well, everyone.
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RG1 9/10/2015 7:58am
9/10/2015 7:58am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 8:00am
Johnny Depp wrote:
An international series that draws top talent (Purse money). It is no wonder purses are a joke when the money is watered down over so many...
An international series that draws top talent (Purse money). It is no wonder purses are a joke when the money is watered down over so many Championships.

It is important to take the sport to a higher level. Make it legitimate and marketable. A million dollar purse is marketable.

Right now with 10 guys able to have a manufacturer place an ad saying "We are the Champ" it's toothless.

"Well I was the fastest on this continent on a reduced power bike when all the other fast guys rode another class"
But championships aren't to prove that you are the best in the world, they are to prove you were the best in that series over the course of the season. Being best in the world is something that is subjective, that is a matter of opinion, no one series can change that. Even if they decided there was just going to be this one super series, there would still be the same thing of 'oh he only won because what's-his-name got injured'.

And where does your next group of riders come from? If there's this one super series that is only open to the worlds elite, then how do you become one of the worlds elite? With no U.S. nationals or World Championship to move into to develop and prove yourself as a rider how do you move into that top tier? In trying to answer an un-answerable question, you would kill the sport, not make it grow.

Not every other major sport has an undesputed best in the world. In fact very few do.
The Truth Bringer 9/10/2015 8:00am
9/10/2015 8:00am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 8:06am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Development class, that's funny. Yet World Champions compete in it? I believe it holds the sport back. There is no legitimate point to it. Call it...
Development class, that's funny. Yet World Champions compete in it?

I believe it holds the sport back. There is no legitimate point to it. Call it what it is.
The Truth Bringer wrote:
How does it hold the sport back? Without it you only have about 10-15 guys with jobs in the 450 class, and eliminate teams like TLD...
How does it hold the sport back?

Without it you only have about 10-15 guys with jobs in the 450 class, and eliminate teams like TLD from ever entering the sport because they can only justify the cost of doing one coast as an entry level team.

You cut the amount of racing people get to see in half so who can justify the ticket prices of a supercross and kill the sport.

This must be a troll thread because it makes 0 sense to eliminate jobs from the sport.
Johnny Depp wrote:
It holds it back from a promoting and marketing standpoint. When fans can't figure it out you have a problem. Therefore impeded growth of the sport...
It holds it back from a promoting and marketing standpoint. When fans can't figure it out you have a problem. Therefore impeded growth of the sport. Why should there be so many "Champions" in this particular sport?

When the 250's run the same lap times as the 450's it proves you are kidding yourself. It has been out in the open since Johnny Omara proved what a 125 could do in the 1986 Motocross des Nations and probably before that.

There would be no "450" class.Bike propulsion doesn't make you the fastest or we would still have 500 2 strokes.

Call it the "Pro's". You would double the size of that class therefore no rides lost. Elimination format. 88 riders at the gate based on practice lap times. 4 quarterfinal motos of 22 where 11 go home. 2 semifinals eliminate the field down to the rider's qualified for the finals. Now race 1, 2 or 3 motos with the best of the best on any size bike.

Teams like TLD and Pro Circuit would flourish due to there ability to innovate and the exposure for the Pro class would increase the sponsor desirability in a "grown" sport.

You do not eliminate jobs. You grow the sport because it becomes a sport not a promotional product where you prop up fake competition of sandbaggers that leave spectators confused as to who won what.
Nobody is confused who the real champion is in baseball because two or three guys playing triple A can hit and throw as fast/well as the top level pros.

I don't think your serious or a real person. The 450 champ is the top dog in the sport and the other champion is being developed to hopefully be that one day. Nobody is confused other than you.

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mauidex
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mauidex 9/10/2015 8:00am
9/10/2015 8:00am
Johnny Depp wrote:
There is still room for other series. What the sport needs is an undisputed Champion.

Like every other major sport.
really??? I get your point but EVERY other major MOTOSPORT in the world has different classes and champions Wink
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 8:04am
9/10/2015 8:04am
Imagine NFL and Baseball and Football stopping at the Divisional level.

NCAA Basketball and Football stopping at the Conference Championship.

The next generation of riders comes from where it always has. Mini Bikes and Amateur racing.
RG1
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RG1 9/10/2015 8:17am
9/10/2015 8:17am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 8:18am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Imagine NFL and Baseball and Football stopping at the Divisional level. NCAA Basketball and Football stopping at the Conference Championship. The next generation of riders comes...
Imagine NFL and Baseball and Football stopping at the Divisional level.

NCAA Basketball and Football stopping at the Conference Championship.

The next generation of riders comes from where it always has. Mini Bikes and Amateur racing.
But the winner of the Super Bowl doesn't always win their conference to get to the playoffs, so are they really the best team in the world? Or were they just better than the teams they played in the playoffs and in the Super Bowl? This is what I mean, there is no black and white, definitive answer as to who is the best in the world in almost any sport.

But where are the young riders going to go once they come out of the amateurs?
The Truth Bringer 9/10/2015 8:17am
9/10/2015 8:17am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Imagine NFL and Baseball and Football stopping at the Divisional level. NCAA Basketball and Football stopping at the Conference Championship. The next generation of riders comes...
Imagine NFL and Baseball and Football stopping at the Divisional level.

NCAA Basketball and Football stopping at the Conference Championship.

The next generation of riders comes from where it always has. Mini Bikes and Amateur racing.
Go from racing maybe 5 big races a year to immediately racing year around and trying to keep up with guys like RV2, and Dungey?
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 8:22am
9/10/2015 8:22am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 8:28am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Imagine NFL and Baseball and Football stopping at the Divisional level. NCAA Basketball and Football stopping at the Conference Championship. The next generation of riders comes...
Imagine NFL and Baseball and Football stopping at the Divisional level.

NCAA Basketball and Football stopping at the Conference Championship.

The next generation of riders comes from where it always has. Mini Bikes and Amateur racing.
RG1 wrote:
But the winner of the Super Bowl doesn't always win their conference to get to the playoffs, so are they really the best team in the...
But the winner of the Super Bowl doesn't always win their conference to get to the playoffs, so are they really the best team in the world? Or were they just better than the teams they played in the playoffs and in the Super Bowl? This is what I mean, there is no black and white, definitive answer as to who is the best in the world in almost any sport.

But where are the young riders going to go once they come out of the amateurs?
Whether you deem the Super Bowl legitimate is not the issue. There is no denying that the NFL owns Sunday.
There is no more expensive advertising to be purchased. Would you like some of that for MX? That is what growth means. Bruno Mars and Madonna halftime shows.

Guys like Bubba Stewart and Ryan Villopoto will have no problem working their way up in the Pros like always the cream rises to the top.

Does it occur to you that they might develop faster racing against real competition rather than running around 1/2 a lap ahead of everybody?



mauidex
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mauidex 9/10/2015 8:26am
9/10/2015 8:26am
the lack of one "world champion" , IE "superbowl" winner has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of MX or SX status in the big picture of professional sports
ML512
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ML512 9/10/2015 8:27am
9/10/2015 8:27am
The Narrator wrote:
Speaking of motocross, and just overall raw speed, I don't think anything will ever top JS259 on a KX125.
Johnny Depp wrote:
Exactly my point. Why did he sandbag in the little engine class so long. Why not race with RC and the rest of the best. Too...
Exactly my point. Why did he sandbag in the little engine class so long. Why not race with RC and the rest of the best.

Too many classes deny us the opportunity to see head to head racing. SANDBAGGING.

We may never get to see Cairoli and Herlings go head to head at their peak.

I don't care which engine they choose, choose your weapon and get to the gate.
Sandbag? He raced three years of 125s and moved up to the 250 class when he was only 19. Please, don't say ridiculous things.
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ML512 9/10/2015 8:30am
9/10/2015 8:30am
Johnny Depp wrote:
There is still room for other series. What the sport needs is an undisputed Champion.

Like every other major sport.
You're last line here shows your ignorance today...
The Truth Bringer 9/10/2015 8:32am
9/10/2015 8:32am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Imagine NFL and Baseball and Football stopping at the Divisional level. NCAA Basketball and Football stopping at the Conference Championship. The next generation of riders comes...
Imagine NFL and Baseball and Football stopping at the Divisional level.

NCAA Basketball and Football stopping at the Conference Championship.

The next generation of riders comes from where it always has. Mini Bikes and Amateur racing.
RG1 wrote:
But the winner of the Super Bowl doesn't always win their conference to get to the playoffs, so are they really the best team in the...
But the winner of the Super Bowl doesn't always win their conference to get to the playoffs, so are they really the best team in the world? Or were they just better than the teams they played in the playoffs and in the Super Bowl? This is what I mean, there is no black and white, definitive answer as to who is the best in the world in almost any sport.

But where are the young riders going to go once they come out of the amateurs?
Johnny Depp wrote:
Whether you deem the Super Bowl legitimate is not the issue. There is no denying that the NFL owns Sunday. There is no more expensive advertising...
Whether you deem the Super Bowl legitimate is not the issue. There is no denying that the NFL owns Sunday.
There is no more expensive advertising to be purchased. Would you like some of that for MX? That is what growth means. Bruno Mars and Madonna halftime shows.

Guys like Bubba Stewart and Ryan Villopoto will have no problem working their way up in the Pros like always the cream rises to the top.

Does it occur to you that they might develop faster racing against real competition rather than running around 1/2 a lap ahead of everybody?



The fact you're even mentioning this sport in the same breath as the NFL shows they never should've let you leave the reservation.


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RG1 9/10/2015 8:32am
9/10/2015 8:32am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 8:38am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Whether you deem the Super Bowl legitimate is not the issue. There is no denying that the NFL owns Sunday. There is no more expensive advertising...
Whether you deem the Super Bowl legitimate is not the issue. There is no denying that the NFL owns Sunday.
There is no more expensive advertising to be purchased. Would you like some of that for MX? That is what growth means. Bruno Mars and Madonna halftime shows.

Guys like Bubba Stewart and Ryan Villopoto will have no problem working their way up in the Pros like always the cream rises to the top.

Does it occur to you that they might develop faster racing against real competition rather than running around 1/2 a lap ahead of everybody?



How many Stewart's and Villopotos are there in this world? Certainly not many, what about the rest of the guys coming up from the amateurs? Someone like Chris Alldredge for example, fine young rider, great potential, how does he succeed if he's thrown in straight away on a 450 against the 40 fastest riders on the planet, he doesn't.

There is no way MX gets even a quarter as big as NFL, just not happening, ever.
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 8:36am
9/10/2015 8:36am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Whether you deem the Super Bowl legitimate is not the issue. There is no denying that the NFL owns Sunday. There is no more expensive advertising...
Whether you deem the Super Bowl legitimate is not the issue. There is no denying that the NFL owns Sunday.
There is no more expensive advertising to be purchased. Would you like some of that for MX? That is what growth means. Bruno Mars and Madonna halftime shows.

Guys like Bubba Stewart and Ryan Villopoto will have no problem working their way up in the Pros like always the cream rises to the top.

Does it occur to you that they might develop faster racing against real competition rather than running around 1/2 a lap ahead of everybody?



RG1 wrote:
How many Stewart's and Villopotos are there in this world? Certainly not many, what about the rest of the guys coming up from the amateurs? Someone...
How many Stewart's and Villopotos are there in this world? Certainly not many, what about the rest of the guys coming up from the amateurs? Someone like Chris Alldredge for example, fine young rider, great potential, how does he succeed if he's thrown in straight away on a 450 against the 40 fastest riders on the planet, he doesn't.

There is no way MX gets even a quarter as big as NFL, just not happening, ever.
If you keep doing what you've always done you are going to get what you've always got.
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 8:39am
9/10/2015 8:39am
The Narrator wrote:
Speaking of motocross, and just overall raw speed, I don't think anything will ever top JS259 on a KX125.
Johnny Depp wrote:
Exactly my point. Why did he sandbag in the little engine class so long. Why not race with RC and the rest of the best. Too...
Exactly my point. Why did he sandbag in the little engine class so long. Why not race with RC and the rest of the best.

Too many classes deny us the opportunity to see head to head racing. SANDBAGGING.

We may never get to see Cairoli and Herlings go head to head at their peak.

I don't care which engine they choose, choose your weapon and get to the gate.
ML512 wrote:
Sandbag? He raced three years of 125s and moved up to the 250 class when he was only 19. Please, don't say ridiculous things.
So I guess you don't think he or maybe RV could have won at least moto's in their early years against the best of the best?
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mauidex 9/10/2015 8:42am
9/10/2015 8:42am
arguably the second largest sport in the world, as far as coverage and TV time, and probably even money to the participants is F1.................they have two feeder series and several other "farm" team type series............

as mentioned by several other posters.............stick and ball has nothing to compare to motorsports...........NASCAR is the only thing even close to NFL in the US and that has pretty much the same system as MX/SX

they were forced to go to "the chase" to try and maintain some type of competitive TV stats as the NFL starts at the end of their season

back in the day you werent even considered serious till you raced 500 GP's............dirt or pavement.........has nothing to do with why MX/SX is not as big as football in both forms
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 8:42am
9/10/2015 8:42am
Johnny Depp wrote:
There is still room for other series. What the sport needs is an undisputed Champion.

Like every other major sport.
ML512 wrote:
You're last line here shows your ignorance today...
So which of the 8 or so Championships in MX do you happen to regard as the "Champion"?

Welcome to the conversation Michael. I have a tremendous respect for your knowledge and testing abilities.

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RG1
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RG1 9/10/2015 8:42am
9/10/2015 8:42am
Johnny Depp wrote:
If you keep doing what you've always done you are going to get what you've always got.
It's only you who has problem with what we've always had
The Truth Bringer 9/10/2015 8:49am
9/10/2015 8:49am
Johnny Depp wrote:
So which of the 8 or so Championships in MX do you happen to regard as the "Champion"? Welcome to the conversation Michael. I have a...
So which of the 8 or so Championships in MX do you happen to regard as the "Champion"?

Welcome to the conversation Michael. I have a tremendous respect for your knowledge and testing abilities.
How can you not understand the top supercross racer in the world comes from the 450 class series?
The other problem can never be fixed because both promoters like making money, but those two come from the 450 class as well.
The Truth Bringer 9/10/2015 8:56am
9/10/2015 8:56am
Johnny Depp wrote:
If you keep doing what you've always done you are going to get what you've always got.
RG1 wrote:
It's only you who has problem with what we've always had
The same guy who takes pride in not watching any of the races on his DVR is making the argument to eliminate jobs and classes from the sport. Maybe it's time he find a new sport and board to bother.
MotoMalyDad
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MotoMalyDad 9/10/2015 9:02am
9/10/2015 9:02am
Come on A1
mauidex
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mauidex 9/10/2015 9:03am
9/10/2015 9:03am
MotoMalyDad wrote:
Come on A1
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
Bob693
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Bob693 9/10/2015 9:07am
9/10/2015 9:07am
NASCAR seems to do just fine with the Xfinity series and their premier class Sprint Cup.
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RG1 9/10/2015 9:11am
9/10/2015 9:11am
The Truth Bringer wrote:
The same guy who takes pride in not watching any of the races on his DVR is making the argument to eliminate jobs and classes from...
The same guy who takes pride in not watching any of the races on his DVR is making the argument to eliminate jobs and classes from the sport. Maybe it's time he find a new sport and board to bother.
Anyone who thinks this sport can compete with the NFL is a few sockets short of a full tool box in my opinion
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 9:14am
9/10/2015 9:14am Edited Date/Time 9/10/2015 9:20am
Johnny Depp wrote:
So which of the 8 or so Championships in MX do you happen to regard as the "Champion"? Welcome to the conversation Michael. I have a...
So which of the 8 or so Championships in MX do you happen to regard as the "Champion"?

Welcome to the conversation Michael. I have a tremendous respect for your knowledge and testing abilities.
The Truth Bringer wrote:
How can you not understand the top supercross racer in the world comes from the 450 class series? The other problem can never be fixed because...
How can you not understand the top supercross racer in the world comes from the 450 class series?
The other problem can never be fixed because both promoters like making money, but those two come from the 450 class as well.
And you know this how? At last years Monster Energy Cup the 2nd fastest lap of the night was by Dean Wilson on a 250. You will find dozens of similar scenarios over the years.

Now when your friends and wife ask why is there 2 classes running the same speeds "who is the fastest?" what excuse do you use to justify it?



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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 9:15am
9/10/2015 9:15am
Bob693 wrote:
NASCAR seems to do just fine with the Xfinity series and their premier class Sprint Cup.
You might notice that they are separate events on different days..
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 9:17am
9/10/2015 9:17am
Johnny Depp wrote:
If you keep doing what you've always done you are going to get what you've always got.
RG1 wrote:
It's only you who has problem with what we've always had
You won't hear much from the ones who have left the sport behind.
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Johnny Depp 9/10/2015 9:19am
9/10/2015 9:19am
The Truth Bringer wrote:
The same guy who takes pride in not watching any of the races on his DVR is making the argument to eliminate jobs and classes from...
The same guy who takes pride in not watching any of the races on his DVR is making the argument to eliminate jobs and classes from the sport. Maybe it's time he find a new sport and board to bother.
RG1 wrote:
Anyone who thinks this sport can compete with the NFL is a few sockets short of a full tool box in my opinion
You may have noticed that Supercross fills quite a few seats in NFL stadiums. Is the glass half empty or half full?
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RG1 9/10/2015 9:27am
9/10/2015 9:27am
Johnny Depp wrote:
And you know this how? At last years Monster Energy Cup the 2nd fastest lap of the night was by Dean Wilson on a 250. You...
And you know this how? At last years Monster Energy Cup the 2nd fastest lap of the night was by Dean Wilson on a 250. You will find dozens of similar scenarios over the years.

Now when your friends and wife ask why is there 2 classes running the same speeds "who is the fastest?" what excuse do you use to justify it?



Wilson rode a 450 at the Monster Cup.

There is a natural progression through the sport on both sides of the pond. In America, from the amateurs, through the 250 class and into the 'premier' 450 class. In Europe from the amateurs, into the European and then through MX2 and into MXGP. It works well, and there is no reason to change it. Each stage is very competitive and more importantly is very good to watch.

Post a reply to: How will we ever know who is the fastest rider with multiple classes?