Atlas Shruged

jtomasik
Posts
12895
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Golden, CO, USA
5/22/2012 9:43am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2012 9:44am
Shiftfaced wrote:
Our society is so much more diverse than about any other population in the world. The distance between the "Haves" and the "Have Nots" creates more...
Our society is so much more diverse than about any other population in the world. The distance between the "Haves" and the "Have Nots" creates more complications than most any other nation has to deal with.

I cited a source that our system is capable of producing AMAZING results. Does everybody reach that potential? No way, but the capability is there.

Back when I grew up, a high school education was all you needed to "make it". If you went to college, well then, you were almost assured to be middle class, if not higher.

Today, if you do not have extended learning beyond high school, you will struggle to be middle class. How do American colleges rate in the world? Among the best.

We spend a lot, per student, because we have better facilities, better programs, higher compenstated teachers (with legacy costs of retirement), and the list goes on.

It is sad how we reap the benefits of the system built us up to who we are, but are too selfish to provide that same opportunity to those who follow.

I call that the "Emergency Ladder" mentality. "I am in the lifeboat, so pull that ladder up quickly before too many others get in here!"
Actually, what built us up to where we are is our geography and little more: the oceans. Without them, the industrial/technological explosion here in the US during and after WWII would've never happened. It isn't anything special about us or our culture.


There are TONS of higher educational institutions that are worthwhile on the planet, and even internally the value of the US college education is being seriously challenged.

Truth is there are a ton of better behaved cultures out there, and many of those value their family instead of relying on social programs.

We are DEFINITELY not getting our money's worth out of our K-12 schools. Not even close. That data point you cite is available pretty much anywhere in a technologically advanced society.

Last, Americans have cornered the market on being selfish, even with all of their social programs.
Shiftfaced
Posts
859
Joined
12/15/2008
Location
Ruby Ridge, ID, USA
5/22/2012 9:51am
Shiftfaced wrote:
Our society is so much more diverse than about any other population in the world. The distance between the "Haves" and the "Have Nots" creates more...
Our society is so much more diverse than about any other population in the world. The distance between the "Haves" and the "Have Nots" creates more complications than most any other nation has to deal with.

I cited a source that our system is capable of producing AMAZING results. Does everybody reach that potential? No way, but the capability is there.

Back when I grew up, a high school education was all you needed to "make it". If you went to college, well then, you were almost assured to be middle class, if not higher.

Today, if you do not have extended learning beyond high school, you will struggle to be middle class. How do American colleges rate in the world? Among the best.

We spend a lot, per student, because we have better facilities, better programs, higher compenstated teachers (with legacy costs of retirement), and the list goes on.

It is sad how we reap the benefits of the system built us up to who we are, but are too selfish to provide that same opportunity to those who follow.

I call that the "Emergency Ladder" mentality. "I am in the lifeboat, so pull that ladder up quickly before too many others get in here!"
jtomasik wrote:
Actually, what built us up to where we are is our geography and little more: the oceans. Without them, the industrial/technological explosion here in the US...
Actually, what built us up to where we are is our geography and little more: the oceans. Without them, the industrial/technological explosion here in the US during and after WWII would've never happened. It isn't anything special about us or our culture.


There are TONS of higher educational institutions that are worthwhile on the planet, and even internally the value of the US college education is being seriously challenged.

Truth is there are a ton of better behaved cultures out there, and many of those value their family instead of relying on social programs.

We are DEFINITELY not getting our money's worth out of our K-12 schools. Not even close. That data point you cite is available pretty much anywhere in a technologically advanced society.

Last, Americans have cornered the market on being selfish, even with all of their social programs.
Oceans. That is interesting. How so?

I always thought that our "competitive advantage" was our former policy of inclusion. Anybody who wanted our opportunties was allowed to enter, but they better know that they will most likely enter on the bottom rung. That was enough for these new American participants, as the POTENTIAL to climb up the social ladder was always present HERE, whereas that same opportunity was likey not offered THERE (where ever they were coming from).

Our acceptance of those workers has dwindled. That will drive production costs up.

We have shot ourselves in the foot.
TX24
Posts
2767
Joined
5/7/2010
Location
San Antonio, TX, USA
5/22/2012 1:30pm
The small print in the book drove me crazy, I only made it a couple of pages.
Mr. G
Posts
4225
Joined
12/23/2009
Location
Riverside, CA, USA
5/22/2012 10:19pm
The very main reason America has progressed so far in such a relatively short amount of time is because if it's originally configured freedom level. That is the main reason. Humans in any decent mental condition have a very strong urge to get ahead and the original mock up played to this urge as the main course. Man is a tough breed and has only survived this far because of his inherent toughness. Man also has an inherent urge towards benevolence if left un-squashed by an over demanding government that forces artificial and superficial help.

The Shop

purpleNurple
Posts
912
Joined
1/29/2010
Location
Fort Stewart, GA, USA
5/23/2012 6:35am Edited Date/Time 5/23/2012 6:35am
Just finished the Movie after reading part one. I actually liked the movie a lot! I cannot wait for part two and three, I guess they are filming part two now but they have switched up the actors.
Shiftfaced
Posts
859
Joined
12/15/2008
Location
Ruby Ridge, ID, USA
5/23/2012 6:58am
I am still wondering how "oceans" made America great.

I am wondering because any benefit they gave us, wouldn't that opportunity also be available to other nations?

It is not like the oceans are a one-sided coin.
jtomasik
Posts
12895
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Golden, CO, USA
5/23/2012 7:23am Edited Date/Time 5/23/2012 7:24am
Shiftfaced wrote:
I am still wondering how "oceans" made America great. I am wondering because any benefit they gave us, wouldn't that opportunity also be available to other...
I am still wondering how "oceans" made America great.

I am wondering because any benefit they gave us, wouldn't that opportunity also be available to other nations?

It is not like the oceans are a one-sided coin.
The oceans have protected us from wars on our land. The wars have been fought overseas. That destroys other countries' infrastructure/resources. So, after the war, while the industrial greats (Germany, England, Japan) were busy trying to build shelters and put water systems back on line, we were the only industrial nation producing and selling goods abroad. That luxury lasted for about 25 years, and it made America a truckload of money. A lot of the technologies you use today were invented then, thanks to that money. We were able to take foreign money and pump it into our system.

However, we didn't invest much in our future (such as incorporating continuous improvement quality systems in our manufacturing). We blew a truckload of it on higher wages (union workers in the steel mills of the early 70's were making close to $20/hour, corporate execs were building huge country clubs....I saw this firsthand, since I grew up near Bethlehem Steel).

When the foreign nations began to produce again, they started kicking our asses, because they knew how to keep quality up and costs down. Now, our money flows out of our borders. We've become a "get it while you can" society. The diversity you speak of burns our time bickering who deserves what, while many other nations simply move forward in their efforts. We're losing our manufacturing capabilities stateside, and those skills take generations to rebuild. While we give that away, the other nations are adopting it, and they're getting damn good at it. the idea that everything China produces is junk is a fallacy to those in development/manufacturing. And don't expect that manufacturing to come back anytime soon. The times are seriously changing.

The oceans were definitely a one-sided coin.
Shiftfaced
Posts
859
Joined
12/15/2008
Location
Ruby Ridge, ID, USA
5/23/2012 7:33am
I see what you are saying.

Hind-sight is 20-20, and we rested upon our laurels.

Your "get it while you can" point is VERY valid. I remember being told in the 2000's that "out-sourcing" was good, because it benefitted the shareholder.

We thought the pie would ALWAYS expand.

We used our homes as ATM's, because the value would ALWAYS increase.

We went to war, and got a tax cut! (Every other time we exported our war machine, we sacrificed.)

It is time to pay the Piper, but all we want to do is question the bill. Too late.


Thanks for the clarification. I do not disagree.
jtomasik
Posts
12895
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Golden, CO, USA
5/23/2012 8:14am Edited Date/Time 5/23/2012 8:14am
America isn't "the shit" like many Americans think. We got handed a gift, and we abused it.

No doubt the Constitution is one bad-ass basis for government, at least in theory. But, Americans aren't unselfish or responsible enough to contribute to a country that is worthy of such a document. In fact, our "independence" and diversity are part of our problem. Unfortunately, I can think of other cultures who might fare better with it than we are. Sad, but true.
5/23/2012 8:36am
jtomasik wrote:
America isn't "the shit" like many Americans think. We got handed a gift, and we abused it. No doubt the Constitution is one bad-ass basis for...
America isn't "the shit" like many Americans think. We got handed a gift, and we abused it.

No doubt the Constitution is one bad-ass basis for government, at least in theory. But, Americans aren't unselfish or responsible enough to contribute to a country that is worthy of such a document. In fact, our "independence" and diversity are part of our problem. Unfortunately, I can think of other cultures who might fare better with it than we are. Sad, but true.
What other cultures?
jtomasik
Posts
12895
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Golden, CO, USA
5/23/2012 10:43am
What other cultures?
Taiwan, for one. Actually they already have a government kinda like ours. That culture has great discipline and values one's own integrity very highly.
5/23/2012 11:00am
What other cultures?
jtomasik wrote:
Taiwan, for one. Actually they already have a government kinda like ours. That culture has great discipline and values one's own integrity very highly.
They have a very unique situation though. They are a very young small nation with a high percentage of merchant / business upper class. Most importantly though, the only reason Taiwan exists as a nation is because we protect them militarily. If we stopped protecting them tomorrow, they would be a part of China by Saturday.
jtomasik
Posts
12895
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Golden, CO, USA
5/23/2012 11:34am
They have a very unique situation though. They are a very young small nation with a high percentage of merchant / business upper class. Most importantly...
They have a very unique situation though. They are a very young small nation with a high percentage of merchant / business upper class. Most importantly though, the only reason Taiwan exists as a nation is because we protect them militarily. If we stopped protecting them tomorrow, they would be a part of China by Saturday.
Their ethics come from their roots. I've traveled to China numerous times, met their families, and they behave much the same. It's reflected in their religious beliefs. Or, you might say it's rooted in their religious belief. Chicken and the egg dilemma. I couldn't tell you for sure which came first.

Their existence because of our protection has zero to do with this discussion. Or, at least I can't see it.

Point being, I think they do much better with a similar system than we do.
5/23/2012 12:02pm Edited Date/Time 5/23/2012 12:02pm
They have a very unique situation though. They are a very young small nation with a high percentage of merchant / business upper class. Most importantly...
They have a very unique situation though. They are a very young small nation with a high percentage of merchant / business upper class. Most importantly though, the only reason Taiwan exists as a nation is because we protect them militarily. If we stopped protecting them tomorrow, they would be a part of China by Saturday.
jtomasik wrote:
Their ethics come from their roots. I've traveled to China numerous times, met their families, and they behave much the same. It's reflected in their religious...
Their ethics come from their roots. I've traveled to China numerous times, met their families, and they behave much the same. It's reflected in their religious beliefs. Or, you might say it's rooted in their religious belief. Chicken and the egg dilemma. I couldn't tell you for sure which came first.

Their existence because of our protection has zero to do with this discussion. Or, at least I can't see it.

Point being, I think they do much better with a similar system than we do.
I think our protecting them has a lot to do with the conversation because regardless of their work ethic they wouldn't have access to any markets if it weren't for our military presence. Because of that their society appears more successful than it actually is.

As far as China goes they are essentially in an industrial revolution type society. They will not be able to maintain that for much longer. As they continue to grow economically their workforce will more and more demand a higher quality of life, thus lowering their trading advantage. They will gradually consume more and produce less. You are right in that I don't think they will become reliant on social programs but in China's case they are able to lessen that by eliminating a high portion of the workforce by having the government engineer their population growth. As China continues becomes more free the government will no longer be able to artificially control those sorts of things.
jtomasik
Posts
12895
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Golden, CO, USA
5/23/2012 2:06pm
I think our protecting them has a lot to do with the conversation because regardless of their work ethic they wouldn't have access to any markets...
I think our protecting them has a lot to do with the conversation because regardless of their work ethic they wouldn't have access to any markets if it weren't for our military presence. Because of that their society appears more successful than it actually is.

As far as China goes they are essentially in an industrial revolution type society. They will not be able to maintain that for much longer. As they continue to grow economically their workforce will more and more demand a higher quality of life, thus lowering their trading advantage. They will gradually consume more and produce less. You are right in that I don't think they will become reliant on social programs but in China's case they are able to lessen that by eliminating a high portion of the workforce by having the government engineer their population growth. As China continues becomes more free the government will no longer be able to artificially control those sorts of things.
Their financial success has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You're not getting it. And I'm getting tired of having to explain things to ya'.

Post a reply to: Atlas Shruged

The Latest