Villopoto's Exploded 450 -ESPN The MAg

BornA'Lil2Slow 11/21/2011 4:41pm
11/21/2011 4:41pm
Reed is the exception, not the rule, when hes paying out of his own pocket. he leased them for his "team" and can do whatever he wants. RV and Team Kawi, Kawi owns the suspension, RV does not have the full blown works stuff on his "ride 5 times a week, at home", practice bike.

guys, you arent grasping what I am saying. There is stock, off the showroom floor components, then there is stock components that have been revalved, resprung, then there are works.

Stock
Aftermarket (PC, WC, RG3)
Works

You sometimes see larger shock shafts, but this isnt something hard to come by and you can get.

But work stuff, its the thinnest it can be, with the tightest tolerances you can imagine. Its designed and made to last about 2 hours. After that, the tolerances go away and the performance degrades.

Stock components are decent tolerances, but designed over the long haul to not have a failure...ie thicker parts, higher stiction due to harder/tighter fitting seals. In a stress reliability over the course of time, stock parts are way up there, and works parts arent.

Think on it like this.... PC 250f motor from their full on race bike. How long do you think they expect to get out of that motor? About 2 hours. hand massaged, wound tight, ported polished, rolled on the thighs of virgins. Now, you think they have that motor in their at home practice bike that they put 10 hours a week ride time on?

Suspension, and its "wound tightness" is the exact same boat. it wont last the 5 days these guys put on it and keep its tolerances and performance.

There are going to be exceptions to everything, What RC wants, RC gets. But i bet thats tempered by what will survive 5 days also.
mellonhs
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mellonhs 11/21/2011 5:25pm
11/21/2011 5:25pm
BornA'Lil2Slow wrote:
Reed is the exception, not the rule, when hes paying out of his own pocket. he leased them for his "team" and can do whatever he...
Reed is the exception, not the rule, when hes paying out of his own pocket. he leased them for his "team" and can do whatever he wants. RV and Team Kawi, Kawi owns the suspension, RV does not have the full blown works stuff on his "ride 5 times a week, at home", practice bike.

guys, you arent grasping what I am saying. There is stock, off the showroom floor components, then there is stock components that have been revalved, resprung, then there are works.

Stock
Aftermarket (PC, WC, RG3)
Works

You sometimes see larger shock shafts, but this isnt something hard to come by and you can get.

But work stuff, its the thinnest it can be, with the tightest tolerances you can imagine. Its designed and made to last about 2 hours. After that, the tolerances go away and the performance degrades.

Stock components are decent tolerances, but designed over the long haul to not have a failure...ie thicker parts, higher stiction due to harder/tighter fitting seals. In a stress reliability over the course of time, stock parts are way up there, and works parts arent.

Think on it like this.... PC 250f motor from their full on race bike. How long do you think they expect to get out of that motor? About 2 hours. hand massaged, wound tight, ported polished, rolled on the thighs of virgins. Now, you think they have that motor in their at home practice bike that they put 10 hours a week ride time on?

Suspension, and its "wound tightness" is the exact same boat. it wont last the 5 days these guys put on it and keep its tolerances and performance.

There are going to be exceptions to everything, What RC wants, RC gets. But i bet thats tempered by what will survive 5 days also.
Sounds about right....
jhansen510
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jhansen510 11/21/2011 5:42pm
11/21/2011 5:42pm
BornA'Lil2Slow wrote:
Reed is the exception, not the rule, when hes paying out of his own pocket. he leased them for his "team" and can do whatever he...
Reed is the exception, not the rule, when hes paying out of his own pocket. he leased them for his "team" and can do whatever he wants. RV and Team Kawi, Kawi owns the suspension, RV does not have the full blown works stuff on his "ride 5 times a week, at home", practice bike.

guys, you arent grasping what I am saying. There is stock, off the showroom floor components, then there is stock components that have been revalved, resprung, then there are works.

Stock
Aftermarket (PC, WC, RG3)
Works

You sometimes see larger shock shafts, but this isnt something hard to come by and you can get.

But work stuff, its the thinnest it can be, with the tightest tolerances you can imagine. Its designed and made to last about 2 hours. After that, the tolerances go away and the performance degrades.

Stock components are decent tolerances, but designed over the long haul to not have a failure...ie thicker parts, higher stiction due to harder/tighter fitting seals. In a stress reliability over the course of time, stock parts are way up there, and works parts arent.

Think on it like this.... PC 250f motor from their full on race bike. How long do you think they expect to get out of that motor? About 2 hours. hand massaged, wound tight, ported polished, rolled on the thighs of virgins. Now, you think they have that motor in their at home practice bike that they put 10 hours a week ride time on?

Suspension, and its "wound tightness" is the exact same boat. it wont last the 5 days these guys put on it and keep its tolerances and performance.

There are going to be exceptions to everything, What RC wants, RC gets. But i bet thats tempered by what will survive 5 days also.
Not trying to stuff you in a corner, but where do you get your information? What pros do you know that ride their practice bike 5 days a week? You know that Thurs/Fri (depending on season) thru Sunday are travel days right? Or are you referring to just off season? I agree with you on most of what you say. Not many of the guys have the full on stuff at home. You also have to factor in that the teams dont want just anybody handling/looking at those machines.
BornA'Lil2Slow 11/21/2011 9:11pm
11/21/2011 9:11pm Edited Date/Time 11/21/2011 9:14pm
between Reynard, Robert and Robbie, Marshal Plumb, Pastrana, Cooper, Palmer, Trey, Bogle, handful of the riders that would come thru and stay with Robbie, talking to Matthes. The ones you are sitting their listening to, say the same thing. Alot I witnessed, and witness, first hand and heard the gripes. Some of it is mid 90's, some early 2000's, some last week (figuratively speaking) self evident. You go watch the riders vids you see on TWMX. You see Trey are the honda track and look at his bike's front end. Works. How to tell, the full disk cover on his 450, you cant get those white ones for oversized brake rotors on an 09 and up crf450, but team honda has them because of the fork lugs on the works forks. Then you look at Trey where it shows him in okla riding, no disk cover, oversized rotor, you can get a carbon fiber one (black), but not white ones. We will be out at Reynards, there is Trey, its stock sticks upper and lower tubes, valved for him, sprung for him, some slider coating. but its not the works forks. His shock, on his at home bike last season, stock shock body, revalved and resprung.

here you go, Bogle, Trey, Wharton, Stroupe, all have said the same thing... at LL's and their LL bikes, these are pc, fc, sponsored guys, the left LL's and the next week got on their pro race bikes, and its night and day different, from the motor to the suspension. Their practice bikes are what they ran as am's, but their racebike was full on sweet.

Today though, there is less of a difference between what they race on saturday and ride on mon-thursday. back in the 2stroke days, it was a completely different bike.

Today, the riders with have the clamps, the triple clamps, footpegs, peg mounts. Everything to make the bike fit and feel the exact same as the race bike.

The Shop

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avidchimp
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avidchimp 11/21/2011 9:58pm
11/21/2011 9:58pm
BornA'Lil2Slow wrote:
between Reynard, Robert and Robbie, Marshal Plumb, Pastrana, Cooper, Palmer, Trey, Bogle, handful of the riders that would come thru and stay with Robbie, talking to...
between Reynard, Robert and Robbie, Marshal Plumb, Pastrana, Cooper, Palmer, Trey, Bogle, handful of the riders that would come thru and stay with Robbie, talking to Matthes. The ones you are sitting their listening to, say the same thing. Alot I witnessed, and witness, first hand and heard the gripes. Some of it is mid 90's, some early 2000's, some last week (figuratively speaking) self evident. You go watch the riders vids you see on TWMX. You see Trey are the honda track and look at his bike's front end. Works. How to tell, the full disk cover on his 450, you cant get those white ones for oversized brake rotors on an 09 and up crf450, but team honda has them because of the fork lugs on the works forks. Then you look at Trey where it shows him in okla riding, no disk cover, oversized rotor, you can get a carbon fiber one (black), but not white ones. We will be out at Reynards, there is Trey, its stock sticks upper and lower tubes, valved for him, sprung for him, some slider coating. but its not the works forks. His shock, on his at home bike last season, stock shock body, revalved and resprung.

here you go, Bogle, Trey, Wharton, Stroupe, all have said the same thing... at LL's and their LL bikes, these are pc, fc, sponsored guys, the left LL's and the next week got on their pro race bikes, and its night and day different, from the motor to the suspension. Their practice bikes are what they ran as am's, but their racebike was full on sweet.

Today though, there is less of a difference between what they race on saturday and ride on mon-thursday. back in the 2stroke days, it was a completely different bike.

Today, the riders with have the clamps, the triple clamps, footpegs, peg mounts. Everything to make the bike fit and feel the exact same as the race bike.
This is correct. Sorry to burst peoples bubble...
Fearo
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Fearo 11/22/2011 1:59am
11/22/2011 1:59am
That's pretty interesting. I know that the unobtanium factory stuff only lasts a couple of hours, but still. I would've thought they would at least run the over the counter A-kit stuff. I mean the 7000$ showa A-kit for example is probably one of the best options for a privateer, and I doubt that they have the finances to service it every 2 hours so I find it kind of weird that the pro's would train of revalved stock stuff.

Seems to me there would be a huge difference in bike handling between the 2. I know the pro's can adapt really fast, but still.
clapped out kawi 11/22/2011 5:53am
11/22/2011 5:53am
BornA'Lil2Slow wrote:
Reed is the exception, not the rule, when hes paying out of his own pocket. he leased them for his "team" and can do whatever he...
Reed is the exception, not the rule, when hes paying out of his own pocket. he leased them for his "team" and can do whatever he wants. RV and Team Kawi, Kawi owns the suspension, RV does not have the full blown works stuff on his "ride 5 times a week, at home", practice bike.

guys, you arent grasping what I am saying. There is stock, off the showroom floor components, then there is stock components that have been revalved, resprung, then there are works.

Stock
Aftermarket (PC, WC, RG3)
Works

You sometimes see larger shock shafts, but this isnt something hard to come by and you can get.

But work stuff, its the thinnest it can be, with the tightest tolerances you can imagine. Its designed and made to last about 2 hours. After that, the tolerances go away and the performance degrades.

Stock components are decent tolerances, but designed over the long haul to not have a failure...ie thicker parts, higher stiction due to harder/tighter fitting seals. In a stress reliability over the course of time, stock parts are way up there, and works parts arent.

Think on it like this.... PC 250f motor from their full on race bike. How long do you think they expect to get out of that motor? About 2 hours. hand massaged, wound tight, ported polished, rolled on the thighs of virgins. Now, you think they have that motor in their at home practice bike that they put 10 hours a week ride time on?

Suspension, and its "wound tightness" is the exact same boat. it wont last the 5 days these guys put on it and keep its tolerances and performance.

There are going to be exceptions to everything, What RC wants, RC gets. But i bet thats tempered by what will survive 5 days also.
dude knows his stuff..
MotoChief
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MotoChief 11/22/2011 6:44am
11/22/2011 6:44am
Very cool that ESPN the Magazine features MX. But I find it strange that the TV shows all completely ignore MX on ESPN. Is this a contractual thing that prohibits them from even discussing or showing results or highlights?
BornA'Lil2Slow 11/22/2011 9:36am
11/22/2011 9:36am Edited Date/Time 11/22/2011 9:54am
Fearo wrote:
That's pretty interesting. I know that the unobtanium factory stuff only lasts a couple of hours, but still. I would've thought they would at least run...
That's pretty interesting. I know that the unobtanium factory stuff only lasts a couple of hours, but still. I would've thought they would at least run the over the counter A-kit stuff. I mean the 7000$ showa A-kit for example is probably one of the best options for a privateer, and I doubt that they have the finances to service it every 2 hours so I find it kind of weird that the pro's would train of revalved stock stuff.

Seems to me there would be a huge difference in bike handling between the 2. I know the pro's can adapt really fast, but still.
KW used stock stanchion tubes and sliders with works internals in SX last year.

the A-kit stuff is only as good as its servicing. Thats the catch. You get hand built with high tolerances, means its faster to fall out of those tolerances. The A-kit is light, and stronger than stock, it it also requires more maintenence and rebuilding, namely in seal, oil, and bushing life.

I'll share a story I witnessed first hand. Robbie Reynard was out doing his motos. he gets done, Robert breaks down his forks, does the usual. The next day Robbie takes 1 lap, comes in and asks Robert what did he do to his forks? Robert says nothing. No valving change, no oil height difference, no oil weight difference, same seals as last time, but a different brand of fork oil (same weight, same manufacturer, different name on the bottle). Robbie swears something is different and goes back out. Robert looks over at us and says, and I quote "that is wild! I used a different fork oil. The weight was the same, made by the same company, and he notices it immediately"

Thats the level these guys are on.

KW, they had two identical test bikes sitting there, hes at the honda test track. He goes out, spins 10 laps. Comes in, hops on the other bike, goes out, does 3 laps, comes in and says, what did you guy do to this bike, its different. They were identical because they were establishing a base line (you change one, keep one the same so you know if your change was better or worse). They get to looking, there is an aluminium skid plate on one, and a carbon fiber on the other.

amazing!
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ML512 11/22/2011 9:50am
11/22/2011 9:50am
Suspension wise most major teams use what they use on race day... Factory kawi's practice bikes all have the same 50MM kyb forks and the same shock units the race bikes have (except in Reed's case he didn't like the 50's and used production based 48's with sleeves in the triple clamps)... Factory Honda, Suzuki both use factory showa units (although some of the practice sets are usually leftovers from last years race stuff if there weren't any major updates), KTM use the same units on all their factory level racer's practice bikes anymore... Just speaking of the factory motocross teams of course. Teams like Valli motorsport have PC A-kit units, all the race stuff is typically the blueish green lower leg coatings while the practice stuff is gold for the nitrade coatings... Slight difference in the friction % and Price... Factory connection, geico honda is going back to using A-kits next year on the majority of their bikes. Motoconcepts used B-kit KYB's (basically stockers with coatings and some different lugs... the practice bikes used stock stuff with no coatings, some sets were the stockers with the different lugs) ect...
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Coultrain 11/22/2011 12:01pm
11/22/2011 12:01pm
Fearo wrote:
That's pretty interesting. I know that the unobtanium factory stuff only lasts a couple of hours, but still. I would've thought they would at least run...
That's pretty interesting. I know that the unobtanium factory stuff only lasts a couple of hours, but still. I would've thought they would at least run the over the counter A-kit stuff. I mean the 7000$ showa A-kit for example is probably one of the best options for a privateer, and I doubt that they have the finances to service it every 2 hours so I find it kind of weird that the pro's would train of revalved stock stuff.

Seems to me there would be a huge difference in bike handling between the 2. I know the pro's can adapt really fast, but still.
BornA'Lil2Slow wrote:
KW used stock stanchion tubes and sliders with works internals in SX last year. the A-kit stuff is only as good as its servicing. Thats the...
KW used stock stanchion tubes and sliders with works internals in SX last year.

the A-kit stuff is only as good as its servicing. Thats the catch. You get hand built with high tolerances, means its faster to fall out of those tolerances. The A-kit is light, and stronger than stock, it it also requires more maintenence and rebuilding, namely in seal, oil, and bushing life.

I'll share a story I witnessed first hand. Robbie Reynard was out doing his motos. he gets done, Robert breaks down his forks, does the usual. The next day Robbie takes 1 lap, comes in and asks Robert what did he do to his forks? Robert says nothing. No valving change, no oil height difference, no oil weight difference, same seals as last time, but a different brand of fork oil (same weight, same manufacturer, different name on the bottle). Robbie swears something is different and goes back out. Robert looks over at us and says, and I quote "that is wild! I used a different fork oil. The weight was the same, made by the same company, and he notices it immediately"

Thats the level these guys are on.

KW, they had two identical test bikes sitting there, hes at the honda test track. He goes out, spins 10 laps. Comes in, hops on the other bike, goes out, does 3 laps, comes in and says, what did you guy do to this bike, its different. They were identical because they were establishing a base line (you change one, keep one the same so you know if your change was better or worse). They get to looking, there is an aluminium skid plate on one, and a carbon fiber on the other.

amazing!
Dude, more stories like this. Killer!
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SlowMoFo 11/22/2011 12:04pm
11/22/2011 12:04pm
scott_nz wrote:
seem to remember a lot more KX's winning championships on four strokes in both classes than factory HOnda's in the last few years, sometimes spending the...
seem to remember a lot more KX's winning championships on four strokes in both classes than factory HOnda's in the last few years, sometimes spending the most money does not always mean building a better bike,
You don't need to spend too much money on the bike when you have the best rider out there riding for you I guess!
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bearded clam 11/22/2011 12:34pm
11/22/2011 12:34pm
Rupert X wrote:
Pretty cool little two-page exploded view of RV's 450 in the latest ESPN - The Magazine. Pages 26-27. Couldn't find it online to show you, sorry...
Pretty cool little two-page exploded view of RV's 450 in the latest ESPN - The Magazine. Pages 26-27.

Couldn't find it online to show you, sorry. They claim each of his eight (8) bikes costs $43.899.00 each.

1 RACE bike (?)

6 Practice Bikes

1 Testing.

Good shtuff.
bearded clam wrote:
I can tell you from experience kawi cuts corners. I would be interested to see what a factory Honda costs to build....Id bet around $75,000. I...
I can tell you from experience kawi cuts corners. I would be interested to see what a factory Honda costs to build....Id bet around $75,000. I beleive RC left kawi cause he felt there bikes wernt as good as others. I know Villopoto killed it this year on them but He would have done the same on any bike.
scott_nz wrote:
seem to remember a lot more KX's winning championships on four strokes in both classes than factory HOnda's in the last few years, sometimes spending the...
seem to remember a lot more KX's winning championships on four strokes in both classes than factory HOnda's in the last few years, sometimes spending the most money does not always mean building a better bike,
The Kawis arnt bad but if your racing at that level wouldnt you want the absolute best equipment possible.
I was a vendor for the Kawi team but after 10 years and a great relationship they left me without even talking. Not just me...a few others. I am one of the very best at what I do!
I know who is building there parts now and I know what Im looking at and I can tell you the parts they are running are cheaper and less quality. I still have some parts on that bike. When I approched them at the beggining of the season about redesigning a certain part that for sure would have been a huge improvment they said maby later. They are still running the old parts!
I also dont like Mike Fishers tactics or the way Norm Bigelow was let go.
Ask Chad Reed how the Kawi team is lol?
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bearded clam 11/22/2011 12:38pm
11/22/2011 12:38pm
Fearo wrote:
That's pretty interesting. I know that the unobtanium factory stuff only lasts a couple of hours, but still. I would've thought they would at least run...
That's pretty interesting. I know that the unobtanium factory stuff only lasts a couple of hours, but still. I would've thought they would at least run the over the counter A-kit stuff. I mean the 7000$ showa A-kit for example is probably one of the best options for a privateer, and I doubt that they have the finances to service it every 2 hours so I find it kind of weird that the pro's would train of revalved stock stuff.

Seems to me there would be a huge difference in bike handling between the 2. I know the pro's can adapt really fast, but still.
BornA'Lil2Slow wrote:
KW used stock stanchion tubes and sliders with works internals in SX last year. the A-kit stuff is only as good as its servicing. Thats the...
KW used stock stanchion tubes and sliders with works internals in SX last year.

the A-kit stuff is only as good as its servicing. Thats the catch. You get hand built with high tolerances, means its faster to fall out of those tolerances. The A-kit is light, and stronger than stock, it it also requires more maintenence and rebuilding, namely in seal, oil, and bushing life.

I'll share a story I witnessed first hand. Robbie Reynard was out doing his motos. he gets done, Robert breaks down his forks, does the usual. The next day Robbie takes 1 lap, comes in and asks Robert what did he do to his forks? Robert says nothing. No valving change, no oil height difference, no oil weight difference, same seals as last time, but a different brand of fork oil (same weight, same manufacturer, different name on the bottle). Robbie swears something is different and goes back out. Robert looks over at us and says, and I quote "that is wild! I used a different fork oil. The weight was the same, made by the same company, and he notices it immediately"

Thats the level these guys are on.

KW, they had two identical test bikes sitting there, hes at the honda test track. He goes out, spins 10 laps. Comes in, hops on the other bike, goes out, does 3 laps, comes in and says, what did you guy do to this bike, its different. They were identical because they were establishing a base line (you change one, keep one the same so you know if your change was better or worse). They get to looking, there is an aluminium skid plate on one, and a carbon fiber on the other.

amazing!
Coultrain wrote:
Dude, more stories like this. Killer!
I did extensive testing using different skid plates. You would be shocked at how just bolting up a skid plate would change the rigidity of the frame! Something I wouldnt notice but the pros do notice everything!
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TeamGreen 11/22/2011 12:43pm
11/22/2011 12:43pm
mxb2 wrote:
$$ figure sounds a little low? Good exposure though.
Amortized thru-out the program and let's not forget the 32 add's to the Amortization-schedule...not to mention the coupl'a other bikes used exclusively for Chassis and Motor development.

Traction control is By FAR cheapest to accomplish at Kawasaki...go take a look at their latest 1000cc ZX...the tech is "production" based for them...soon to be avail on the ZX6.

I'm jus' sayin'...
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Fearo 11/23/2011 1:21am
11/23/2011 1:21am
BornA'Lil2Slow wrote:
KW used stock stanchion tubes and sliders with works internals in SX last year. the A-kit stuff is only as good as its servicing. Thats the...
KW used stock stanchion tubes and sliders with works internals in SX last year.

the A-kit stuff is only as good as its servicing. Thats the catch. You get hand built with high tolerances, means its faster to fall out of those tolerances. The A-kit is light, and stronger than stock, it it also requires more maintenence and rebuilding, namely in seal, oil, and bushing life.

I'll share a story I witnessed first hand. Robbie Reynard was out doing his motos. he gets done, Robert breaks down his forks, does the usual. The next day Robbie takes 1 lap, comes in and asks Robert what did he do to his forks? Robert says nothing. No valving change, no oil height difference, no oil weight difference, same seals as last time, but a different brand of fork oil (same weight, same manufacturer, different name on the bottle). Robbie swears something is different and goes back out. Robert looks over at us and says, and I quote "that is wild! I used a different fork oil. The weight was the same, made by the same company, and he notices it immediately"

Thats the level these guys are on.

KW, they had two identical test bikes sitting there, hes at the honda test track. He goes out, spins 10 laps. Comes in, hops on the other bike, goes out, does 3 laps, comes in and says, what did you guy do to this bike, its different. They were identical because they were establishing a base line (you change one, keep one the same so you know if your change was better or worse). They get to looking, there is an aluminium skid plate on one, and a carbon fiber on the other.

amazing!
Wow that is crazy. Thanks.

Pit Row

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