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Yes but how can you pretend like you don’t 90+% of the time get a warning by gas bikes and hear them coming….
For me, I would not put the rate so high of me hearing a rider coming up behind me. Maybe I just have bad hearing.
I think that there is a group of riders that it might matter more for than others. Other than a big gap in speed, I always seem to feel a rider behind me. Maybe I'm feeling the sound. Maybe the argument is true on both sides? When I started to race I stopped relying on the sound. Since often other bikes will make it so I am unable to hear others.
Then maybe the class structure is flawed as well. I’ve been dreaming of a new class structure based on past results (inspired by pro tennis) and timed practice instead of aiming at giving trophies to everyone on the premises. More full gates and more riding time, more room in the schedule for e bikes.
I agree that the class structure should be re-arranged. I've only raced a few Old Timers races, but they gate many of the same abilities together, even if they are in a different age group for trophies. 40+, 50+, 60+ C riders all gate together. 40+, 50+ 60+ B riders all gate together etc. This structure creates 20 minute motos and more riders per moto. Structure the classes so that everyone has an opportunity to sign up for two classes. With 20 minute motos, noone needs to ride more than two classes. Most riders are good with only one class with (2) 20 minute motos and morning practice.
The Shop
🤩 spot on @AgileMike
I had the same conversation with him earlier this year. I found a series called masters Mx that has had Alta’s race for as long they have been around and never had an issue. I went to round one at budds creek. A non ama sanctioned race and me and another stark guy got black flagged in our first Moto in the 30+b class. Ezra beasely claimed ama insurance was the issue. We got a refund but still a bum deal.
Recently I started an email thread with Burkeen, and all my local track owners and the other guy who was dq’d. I wanted in writing where it was an insurance issue. They just say that we have to follow the ama rules. And ultimately it comes down to just Burkeen. An old man is the judge jury and executioner of can you race your stark varg. Against other gas bikes. There is no board, there is no vote.
If there were 5 dudes in and around my ability level than that would be great but there is not. You’re lucky to have a second rider on one.
It’s safe for the track insurance on practice day when there are 50 riders and less flaggers, it’s safe for children to race e bikes and it’s safe if we all have e bikes… is it a safety thing or a competition thing? My argument is for open classes. If it’s truly an open class there is no argument! The ama rule book allows it race in open classes “when allowed” by supplemental rules. But I guess one person says no. So it’s not going to happen?
In a Whisky Throttle interview with Justin Bogle. Justin said that he races with Ear plugs even while racing on a Stark Varg. He said he has trouble concentrating when he can hear other bikes . He also said that in his opinion the sound thing is BS.
If its a safety thing that earplugs should not be allowed if You are unable to hear at a certain DB level. I get it that riders are all different. And there are some guys that rely on sound more than others. For me, I feel like when I'm in a tight pack, sound is not very useful in knowing where other bikes are. And I just assume there could be somebody there and ride like that. Staying in main lines unless I can see that I am not close with other riders.
I understand that the bike kind of came out of nowhere. But there were people on a waiting list for what ? almost 2 years from when it was announced? I really hope that they allow Vargs into AMA racing for 2025. I can understand not letting them do Pro racing just yet. But the Vet and Open classes are a perfect place to let it race and see how it compares to ICE bikes.
I'm waiting on a return email from the local ama district on if I'm allowed to race one or not, saw pictures of one at a local race but no other information and the track didn't respond to my question.
@jasonmitchell I agree with you on some points and disagree on others.
Agree:
1. There should be a way to allow electric bikes to ride in classes with ICE bikes safely (or at least on the same gate). There simply aren't enough electric bikes currently to have a competative race. RMX, the series I ride, has one Alta, and the very last round had another Stark as well. Neither of these riders are around my skill level, so I would be riding around by myself 99% of an electric bike only race. If they are not allowed to race, I don't blame people for not wanting to drop 12k on a bike that's only useful for trail riding.
2. Change is hard for everyone to accept, especially now that the ICE vs electric has become so politicized. Some promoters will come up BS reasons to not let electric bikes race because they simply don't like them (due to politics or otherwise).
Disagree:
1. Mike Burkeen is an older guy, but in my phone conversation with him, he plainly understands the benefits of electric bikes. He is not judge, jury and executioner by a long shot. Not to be repetive, but his two main issues are:
A. Stark didn't work with the AMA in advance. All other OEMs do (KTM with e50, Honda with upcoming full size electric). It's never a good idea to try to bully a sancioning organization (AMA or government) into submission. It's a exercise in futility.
B. The AMA has legitament concerns regarding safety. Awareness of other riders (easily solved with noisemaking device). Awareness of sudden deceleration on jump faces (easily solved with noisemaking device the changes pitch/volume with throttle or deceleration lights). Stark spent millions of dollars on R&D to develop an amazing bike. The fact that they have zero solutions for AMA concerns tells me something. I'm not longer involved the tech industry, but if I had more time I would spend the two weeks and about 10k to solve this myself. It's incredibly simple with the available tech, and if they are required to race, the market is probably 90% of Stark sales volume.
As soon as Honda or Yamaha or Kawasaki or KTM release a full sized electric motocross bike, they will be legal to race.
Just FYI, this Old Man does not make any rules. Our competition commissions make the rules. LOL
I can see some concern about noise, but to me it almost goes away entirely in a race situation, it's more of a worry on a practice day when there will be large skill gaps on the track at the same time, I'll be coming up on someone much more slowly in a race where they're fairly evenly speed matched to me.
Deceleration lights puzzles me. What use would that have? If someone is slowing down in front of me, I can see them. I've never once relied on noise or lack of noise to tell if someone is hitting the brakes.
The main issue I see with noise is someone cruising on a practice day doesn't hear a stark behind them and makes an erratic line choice exiting the track thinking they're alone on that section (which they should look behind them anyway)
I race in the vet classes so my race experience may be different than yours. In our series, Vet C and Vet B racers are on the same gate, with a separate drop. This results in the B racers typically lapping the slower C racers, even in a relatively short 12-15 minute moto.
There is no Vet D class, so Vet C class has a huge variation in speed. At the front of the pack you have Vet B guys who are out of shape and can't race at B speed for 12-15 minutes. At the back of the pack there may be a guy who is entering his very first race and happens to be over 30 years old.
Regarding the "brake lights", my understanding is that the AMA is concerned about riders chopping the throttle on jump faces and following riders not being able to realize this is happening, thus jumping on top of them. I think this is solved better/easier with a noisemaker that changes pitch/volume with throttle position.
I'm far from a pro or even a fast racer, but do you hear bikes on the face of the jump if you have bikes around you? If someone chops the throttle infront of you and you have bikes around you I cannot imagine you hear that specific bike? Sounds strange and an odd bs reason.
with that said, I notice even riding with other Vargs, yes, they sneak up on me even if I am on a Varg, that's true.
On the other hand, I find it very old-fashioned and legacy of days past that a 250-450cc engine (small compared to liter bikes or cars) need to sound like a bomber coming in for dropping their payload. A bit 'Monster trucking' over the whole thing... can't we make 250-450cc MUCH quieter?
Same, but they combine the vet classes into +30b/c here.
I still don't understand how they think that's a concern, if someone in front of you slows down, you'll see it. I don't think I've ever once judged someone else's speed based on noise, if I can even hear them over my own bike, since you would be on the gas in that situation. IMO that's BS reasoning to kick the can down the road til the big manufacturers give it their blessing.
I got passed by my own Varg last Saturday out at Oak Hill in TX. This was the first time I ever experienced getting passed by a Varg. Craig Decker was riding my rig and it truly made me laugh when it happened. Had no idea he was coming. I thought it was cool as hell though.
I agree .
I can understand the noise a little bit as far as somebody coming up behind you, in certain cases. But the noise on a jump face makes it all sound like BS. I have never listened for a bike in front of me. Like You said, If I'm going to jump the jump, I'm not going to hear their bike over mine.
I think that the sound part is a relatively minor safety issue. And that mixing multiple skill levels on a track is MUCH more of a risk.
In this situation You will often have racers crossing over lines , not jumping jumps, and coming up on other racers at a faster rate. Or perhaps this is exactly why a Varg/electric should not be allowed in a Vet class?
Often when a faster more experienced rider passes a slower rider that is a newer racer, they pull over right into the way. They are trying to get out of the way , but do the opposite.
So it is safe and OK (AMA legal) for somebody to be deaf and race, it is safe and ok(AMA legal) for people to wear earplugs while racing. If it is ok for those racers to accept that extra risk the AMA says they are taking How about if everybody in the class agrees that it is OK to allow a Varg/electric in, they allow the class to make that same personal decision , and sign an extra waiver ?
But on the other hand, Stark, just make something to make noise and call the AMA's bluff. Either way its a win. If they allow the bikes into VET and OPEN classes, You'll have a bunch of Vet guys lining up to buy them. And if not, well You just proved that it was BS.
And AMA. How about setting a minimum sound level or being the bigger man and trying harder to get Stark to work with you. Sound is killing so many places to ride, and Stark is making a bike that solves that.
Come on guys, work together PLEASE.
Paul Veraka passed me like that onetime in an open A/B race. I remember seeing a front fender out of the corner of my eye and looking up and over. I'm 6'9" and I was jumping a double. His front tire was at my eye level . He was jumping way past the landing onto a whoop and on a 125 but I never heard him . That is the most surprising pass I've had somebody do .
Wally Silva in some rough sand whoops was a close second as to the surprise in how much faster he was going. I was a B rider, and loved racing the race they had at Southwick the weekend before the national getting to ride with factory guys . I got a good start and remember being passed by all of the YOT guys and some other bigger names, and I was surprised at how slow those passes were compared to the times Paul and Wally passed me.
Pit Row
Generally not that funny when you get passed by your own bike 😅
I do appreciate that You are on here and explaining what is going on. We may not agree on everything . But I am glad to see You on here engaging with people and being very accessible.
I've built a few tracks , and You can never make everybody happy. I can not imagine how much of a larger scale you are dealing with as far as trying to keep as many people happy while doing what You and Your people also believe is right for the sport. Everybody wants something different from it. And its difficult to impossible to make everybody happy. Even on a small scale of a private track with a mixed group of rider skill levels. Never mind all of AMA AM racing.
I want to thank You for doing the job You do .
True. Decker is fast tho, I'll be alright.
I dont get why people think the AMA must let electric bikes in, they don't have to do anything, nor do insurance companies that underwirte them, Stark fucked up here and didn't do the homework to the biggest market in the world,
I'd have a rule that states these kitchen appliances on wheels should get lost.
😄
Counterpoint: Motorcycling Australia motto is Ride. Race. Enjoy.
Their objective is to help riders to race and enjoy two wheels, that's pretty straightforward.
They also offer affiliated Motorcycle clubs wide-ranging insurance coverage, including a no-excess public liability policy to take the financial risk out of running a motorcycle club with insurance built by the sport, for the sport.
And obviously they've worked with Stark and the FIM to define new technical and safety regulations to allow electrics to race in pro and amateur classes.
What's not to like?
AMA has a rule that state MX bikes are to be propelled by an ICE. I guess Anton The Great missed that.
Lol
So what do you think were the rules a couple of years ago in Australia and all the other countries now allowing electrics to race? 🤣
They've adapted their rules to let the riders enjoy their new bikes, just like the AMA did in a few championships already, and as Mike Burkeen says, they're devising new rules right now to try to extend that for next year.
Maybe Anton will be able to move those warehouses full of bikes then that he is sitting on.
True the AMA doesn't have to do anything, Insurance cos don't either. But EVERY major MX bike maker is working on electric versions right now.
Vargs are being raced at local NON ama series all over . There ARE tracks that have insurances that allow electric MX bikes to race with gas bikes.
With most of the major MX bike makers all working on electric MX bikes. It is only a matter of time before the AMA allows it . They will when a couple of the manufacturers that have been around supporting AMA racing have bikes and start to pressure them to allow them.
Have you ridden one yet?
I have not talked to anybody that has ridden one that did not have a lot of fun on it . Most say it is the future. Not because they feel like we will be forced onto them. But because the bike can do stuff so well and is so fun to ride stock . People that have their bikes really dialed in find things the Varg will do better than their race bikes that they have spent hours setting up. I'm not saying to buy one. But I think You might understand why people are so excited about them after You ride one.
Don't believe ANYTHING the AMA says, just go by their awful track record and you will see that they will F*** the handling of Electric bikes just like the do with everything else. I am embarrassed to be a life member but at least I dont have to pay dues anymore.
Post a reply to: Re: Stark-My conversation with Mike Burkeen, AMA Deputy Director of Racing