Paid flaggers at Nationals

7/8/2024 10:29am
Solved: 🙄 At the VERY least require each team to supply a crew member / spotter as a flagger for each race.    They are already...

Solved: 🙄

At the VERY least require each team to supply a crew member / spotter as a flagger for each race. 
 

They are already traveling to races and are knowledgeable about the sport and on track etc.  

Require tracks to have lights/sirens installed at spots that are “traditionally” spots needed. 

Then fill in if still needed with current local knowledgeable people and pay them and make it VIP / special to them somehow. 
 

Just make some kind of improvement instead of a stool and a flag in the sun to provide safety.

 

✌️

twotwosix wrote:

No offense, but this is the top professional level of the sport, the sanctioning body/series should be taking care of this.

My thinking is teams would be happy to help because of the safety of the riders. 
 

100% correct sanctioning body should handle it but I’m thinking teams are getting upset as much as fans are so why not get involved. 
 

Just someone do something better. Smile

1
2
971_Fan
Posts
101
Joined
4/11/2024
Location
Los Angeles , CA US
7/8/2024 10:40am
dboivin wrote:
all u guys thinking lights are the answer are 1st level thinkers. someone has to push the button to activate the lights. the same human delay...

all u guys thinking lights are the answer are 1st level thinkers. someone has to push the button to activate the lights. the same human delay and flaws of a human flagger. 

i've flagged for red bud and their events over the years. they usually get past and current riders to fill their positions for their events.  our whole club who all have years of mx and dirt track experience both racing and as flaggers have worked their events in past.. 

and there is so much to it than just payin some guys to flag the series. do yo think a track owner wants some randoms to show up and flag? do you think their insurance companies are gonna allow it? there isa multitude of complications the vital experts have no idea of.

There will always be a human element and thus errors. But lights, supplemented with flags, visually stands out a bit more and can be helpful. 

I would suggest that's not first level thinking since the fundamental problem isn't human error, delays, etc. but rather a lack of training, and not investing more time and money into that training to prepare flaggers to act more precisely. 

It's not about just paying some rando who shows up, but having trained, dedicated flaggers focused on one thing: rider safety. 

1
971_Fan
Posts
101
Joined
4/11/2024
Location
Los Angeles , CA US
7/8/2024 10:43am

The flaggers need some type of shade. Anyone that has flagged for a day on a hot summer day knows it can get delirious real quick.

I agree. Flaggers should not have to roast out in the heat, and risk heat exhaustion. Proper hydration, shade and not being over exposed to the heat is import. 

1
1
byke
Posts
1498
Joined
8/12/2015
Location
Auburn, CA US
7/8/2024 10:44am

Flaggers also lift bikes off of people, plus they often gesture in ways to help riders navigate downed people/bikes in blind sections. 

4
1

The Shop

dboivin
Posts
3026
Joined
5/19/2010
Location
Saginaw, MI US
7/8/2024 10:48am
dboivin wrote:
all u guys thinking lights are the answer are 1st level thinkers. someone has to push the button to activate the lights. the same human delay...

all u guys thinking lights are the answer are 1st level thinkers. someone has to push the button to activate the lights. the same human delay and flaws of a human flagger. 

i've flagged for red bud and their events over the years. they usually get past and current riders to fill their positions for their events.  our whole club who all have years of mx and dirt track experience both racing and as flaggers have worked their events in past.. 

and there is so much to it than just payin some guys to flag the series. do yo think a track owner wants some randoms to show up and flag? do you think their insurance companies are gonna allow it? there isa multitude of complications the vital experts have no idea of.

web mx wrote:
Hey Dan, you are in the Polkadots MC club I believe ?  What years did you guy's flag the national ? Our club back then Michigan...

Hey Dan, you are in the Polkadots MC club I believe ?  What years did you guy's flag the national ? Our club back then Michigan offroad racing association flagged the national 1991 thru 1996 ( I only flagged 91 thru 94) Our club would get a set amount of $$ from Gene  and we members that actually worked the event would get the Official track member shirt plus the event shirt,food and drinks for the day.

yeah was a member of pdmc  for many years. we had many members flag soaring eagle summer event for amy. food/drinks for the day. event shirt and some dollars for the day. forget what year it was. but the flag crew was basically racers and enthusiasts who completely understand flagging and were good at it. every national on the circuit ran very similar. vital board back seat drivers complaining probably would be worse at flagging but they have no idea because they probably haven't even done it on this level before.

1
1
dboivin
Posts
3026
Joined
5/19/2010
Location
Saginaw, MI US
7/8/2024 10:57am

i really wish they would allow helmet communication. even if its just one way  so rider can be warned of situation. but unfortunately it would be tough to keep teams from exploiting it for helping riders change lines etc.... it would be tough unless you could enable a proximity type warning that only broadcast  to riders in that zone/obstacle....etc...

i do like spotter style communication much like nascar it would be interesting to see it used and recorded for us to hear the communication

1
BobPA
Posts
8052
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
PA US
7/8/2024 11:03am

DC has been listening to the Wu-Tang Clan too much, more specifically to the song C.R.E.A.M

2
mtbkris2
Posts
288
Joined
1/17/2024
Location
San Diego, CA US
Fantasy
3273rd
7/8/2024 11:14am

My question is what kind of training do the flaggers currently get? A quick verbal rundown? Do they watch training videos? Are they brought out on a practice day with someone to teach and supervise? It’s really not a hard task, but the number of times someone has crashed and the flagger is just watching oncoming traffic instead of monitoring traffic that’s already passed is crazy. 

1
1
7/8/2024 11:46am
300exc wrote:
The Flagger at the take off is a AMA official. He is a paid Flagger. The challenge is he was blue flagging hard for the top...

The Flagger at the take off is a AMA official. He is a paid Flagger.

The challenge is he was blue flagging hard for the top 5 riders. He is looking up track to do that.

Should have been looking both ways, up track and down track for downed bikes also.

Didn’t have the yellow flag in his other hand. Or remote for safety lights. How he missed a bike endoing off the top of the table is concerning. Guessing there was a massive panic rev before the crash.

The flagger at the landing is a local Flagger whose responsibility is the corner past him down track after the jump. Just because he’s in the camera shot doesn’t mean he’s responsible for the take off of the jump.

Radio communication between the flagger at the landing and the AMA official would have been nice but somewhat impractical.

Hopefully this will at least be discussed and something changed.

 

This reminded me of another thing that I’ve noticed the past several years and something Lewis from Vital has mentioned in a few pods;

Where tf is a statement from the AMA?!?!

This is their mistake. Shouldn’t there be some sort of PR on it and an apology? 
 

We can do so much better than this 😒

 

2
2
7/8/2024 11:49am Edited Date/Time 7/8/2024 11:51am
mtbkris2 wrote:
My question is what kind of training do the flaggers currently get? A quick verbal rundown? Do they watch training videos? Are they brought out on...

My question is what kind of training do the flaggers currently get? A quick verbal rundown? Do they watch training videos? Are they brought out on a practice day with someone to teach and supervise? It’s really not a hard task, but the number of times someone has crashed and the flagger is just watching oncoming traffic instead of monitoring traffic that’s already passed is crazy. 

Two, 20-30 min talks. One on Friday and one on Saturday morning. They pass around a few waivers during this time as well and ask about everyone’s experience so they can place more experienced flaggers in proper locations. The talk on Friday was at 6pm when I did it, well after press was finished. 

1
scott_nz
Posts
5435
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
NZ
Fantasy
1871st
7/8/2024 11:51am

The issue with a radio in the helmet is the number of spootters you would need to cover 40 bikes and 2 miles of race track ,  also how to identify each section. It works well at ovals with 4 corners that are easy to identify , but I can see issues at mx tracks 

3
McG194
Posts
3528
Joined
9/7/2017
Location
Palm Coast, FL US
7/8/2024 1:00pm
mtbkris2 wrote:
My question is what kind of training do the flaggers currently get? A quick verbal rundown? Do they watch training videos? Are they brought out on...

My question is what kind of training do the flaggers currently get? A quick verbal rundown? Do they watch training videos? Are they brought out on a practice day with someone to teach and supervise? It’s really not a hard task, but the number of times someone has crashed and the flagger is just watching oncoming traffic instead of monitoring traffic that’s already passed is crazy. 

I can talk to some of this. 

In Supercross you have AMA Flaggers and Feld Flaggers. In Florida SX rounds I work as a Feld Flagger. Feld gets their flaggers from local clubs. Most every guy you see with a Polo shirt that says "Flag Crew" on the back races local moto or Hare Scrambles. There is a local team lead who gets his group, and we go through training every race day morning. The Feld crew has one guy that oversees everything and is at every race. All flaggers are equipped with headsets in their helmets and if you are out of position he will direct you where to stand. Most local teams stay together for quite a while, most guys I work with have worked with me for multiple years. Feld flaggers only wave yellow flags. AMA Flaggers have a big colorful AMA on the back and wave blue, red cross and yellow flags. 

In MX the flag crew has the same AMA officials as SX as well as locals that they round up. If you are wearing a t-shirt you are part of the local crew outdoors. My assumption is they do not go through nearly the training that Feld flaggers go through. 

 

The second that I hear they are hiring a full-time crew I'll be the first to throw my hat in the ring. Be a nice little retirement job. 

 

As far as the Deegs incident, I haven't watched it too closely, but it looks like the flagger may have been out of position. In his defense with the size of the jumps outdoors it's much tougher to cover everything. If I was flagging that jump, I would position myself so I could see the entire downside of the jump and as soon as someone crashed, I would run to the front of the jump to warn riders before they hit the jump. Keep in mind that on a 100 foot tabletop which isn't out of the ordinary outdoors will take a couple seconds to cover that ground. 

Final side note: Watching the NASCAR race yesterday a car spun and the flagger was furiously waving a blue flag until another track worker handed him a yellow. So it is not just motocross. 

6
1
MxAddic
Posts
3085
Joined
11/24/2022
Location
NY US
7/8/2024 1:41pm

This incident is getting blown out by vital. For starters if he had direct access to the yellow and displayed it immediately could the riders have even reacted in time? Also Deegan would have jumped under yellow anyway.

5
7
soggy
Posts
5251
Joined
12/3/2018
Location
UT US
Fantasy
4230th
7/8/2024 1:58pm Edited Date/Time 7/8/2024 1:59pm
dboivin wrote:
i really wish they would allow helmet communication. even if its just one way  so rider can be warned of situation. but unfortunately it would be...

i really wish they would allow helmet communication. even if its just one way  so rider can be warned of situation. but unfortunately it would be tough to keep teams from exploiting it for helping riders change lines etc.... it would be tough unless you could enable a proximity type warning that only broadcast  to riders in that zone/obstacle....etc...

i do like spotter style communication much like nascar it would be interesting to see it used and recorded for us to hear the communication

I don’t think riders could gain much of an advantage and Mx sports or feld would need access to the audio similar to f1 so they could determine if anything untoward was happening. 

1
FastEddy
Posts
13385
Joined
8/3/2008
Location
., FL US
Fantasy
515th
7/8/2024 2:10pm Edited Date/Time 7/8/2024 2:11pm
MxAddic wrote:
This incident is getting blown out by vital. For starters if he had direct access to the yellow and displayed it immediately could the riders have...

This incident is getting blown out by vital. For starters if he had direct access to the yellow and displayed it immediately could the riders have even reacted in time? Also Deegan would have jumped under yellow anyway.

The Deegan thing was just one incident and honestly I dont think the flagger had any time at all to change that outcome. That happened pretty fast and luckily the lapper got out of the way swiftly.

However,what I did notice in regards to the flagging....  is in all 4 motos the flaggers weren't aggressive enough in regards to throwing out the blue flag in regards to the lappers,even more so in the second motos.  

1
scott_nz
Posts
5435
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
NZ
Fantasy
1871st
7/8/2024 3:50pm
MxAddic wrote:
This incident is getting blown out by vital. For starters if he had direct access to the yellow and displayed it immediately could the riders have...

This incident is getting blown out by vital. For starters if he had direct access to the yellow and displayed it immediately could the riders have even reacted in time? Also Deegan would have jumped under yellow anyway.

Agreed. Only a Red Cross flag would have stopped it.  And I doubt there was time to get that out and have deegan react to it and not jump 

4
1
langhammx
Posts
9091
Joined
5/5/2011
Location
Santa Clarita, CA US
Fantasy
1071st
7/8/2024 3:58pm Edited Date/Time 7/8/2024 4:26pm
300exc wrote:
The Flagger at the take off is a AMA official. He is a paid Flagger. The challenge is he was blue flagging hard for the top...

The Flagger at the take off is a AMA official. He is a paid Flagger.

The challenge is he was blue flagging hard for the top 5 riders. He is looking up track to do that.

Should have been looking both ways, up track and down track for downed bikes also.

Didn’t have the yellow flag in his other hand. Or remote for safety lights. How he missed a bike endoing off the top of the table is concerning. Guessing there was a massive panic rev before the crash.

The flagger at the landing is a local Flagger whose responsibility is the corner past him down track after the jump. Just because he’s in the camera shot doesn’t mean he’s responsible for the take off of the jump.

Radio communication between the flagger at the landing and the AMA official would have been nice but somewhat impractical.

Hopefully this will at least be discussed and something changed.

 

Glad you posted this. I have been defending that flagger at the bottom of the jump that all the keyboard warriors keep complaining about. That was not his job.. 

I did read that there was another flagger at the take off, but it was mentioned that he did not see the crash. Being he was in blue flag mode makes perfect sense now. Not that he shouldn’t have been looking both ways, but he gets a pass on this one. Hopefully others will see this and take the heat off of the poor guy that everyone is mad at. 

6
300exc
Posts
196
Joined
3/5/2018
Location
Elma, WA US
7/8/2024 4:14pm Edited Date/Time 7/8/2024 4:16pm
mtbkris2 wrote:
My question is what kind of training do the flaggers currently get? A quick verbal rundown? Do they watch training videos? Are they brought out on...

My question is what kind of training do the flaggers currently get? A quick verbal rundown? Do they watch training videos? Are they brought out on a practice day with someone to teach and supervise? It’s really not a hard task, but the number of times someone has crashed and the flagger is just watching oncoming traffic instead of monitoring traffic that’s already passed is crazy. 

I got way more training flagging SX than MX.

Also had one way radio communication at SX and none at MX.

Say what ya want about Feld but they have definitely put in a ton of effort into training the local flaggers. 
 

 

4
OleTex2
Posts
226
Joined
8/12/2021
Location
Round Rock, TX US
Fantasy
334th
7/8/2024 6:36pm

I saw a flagger throw a yellow large flag on the track at the last MXGP race. Maybe that would improve visibility and safety? 

EZZA 95B
Posts
9186
Joined
11/3/2010
Location
AU
Fantasy
827th
7/9/2024 6:09am

For the “blind jumps”, maybe put a spotter at the landing to notify the flagger at the takeoff?

philG
Posts
9884
Joined
5/12/2012
Location
GB
7/9/2024 1:37pm

Having seen the footage of the flagger on the jump waving the blue flags, and not the yellow , that is on the organiser, IMO , at all the races we have blue flags at, they are always solely used by roving marshalls and the senior guys who are normally hooked up by radio. The guy on the jump needs to be back to the track, watching up to the next point, and nothing else, he shouldnt even know who the leaders are. 

That was piss poor, and needs a proper investigation, if Dangerboy breaks a wrist there, its not going to be a good look. 

Be better 

 

3
4
sandman768
Posts
6259
Joined
3/21/2014
Location
Saratoga Springs, NY US
7/9/2024 1:52pm

Mx sports be like: see you at Millville bros…

4
3
Nairb#70
Posts
1777
Joined
2/25/2020
Location
Ivoryton, CT US
7/9/2024 4:12pm

It's a no brainer. You used to have to have resume to get a pro lisence, apparently not anymore. Hence more back of the pack guys crashing.

Mr. Ted
Posts
1627
Joined
5/7/2010
Location
Atoka, TN US
Fantasy
928th
7/9/2024 4:30pm

I think you guys should start a flaggers union...

7/9/2024 4:53pm Edited Date/Time 7/9/2024 4:55pm

We need in-helmet communications and/or a heads-up display or light type system under the helmet visor or something that can be attached to goggles.  Something that’s activated by a spotter assigned to a specific area.

1
truck
Posts
1160
Joined
6/10/2015
Location
Louisville, KY US
Fantasy
471st
7/9/2024 7:38pm

Not sure where the confidence comes from with some of you that a group that hasn't been able to master basics of flagging with 50 years of practice is going to be able to successfully implement far more complicated systems like lights or radio communication?

3
MX Guy
Posts
2418
Joined
7/18/2016
Location
Southern, CA US
Fantasy
500th
7/9/2024 7:43pm

I've tried to get in to do it at Fox raceway two years in a row now. I'd happily contribute unpaid just to try and make a positive impact on the safety situation. The fact is that these people are scared to get out in front of bikes and make themselves noticeable. We ride so we get it. 

1
OleTex2
Posts
226
Joined
8/12/2021
Location
Round Rock, TX US
Fantasy
334th
7/9/2024 7:48pm Edited Date/Time 7/9/2024 7:50pm
MX Guy wrote:
I've tried to get in to do it at Fox raceway two years in a row now. I'd happily contribute unpaid just to try and make...

I've tried to get in to do it at Fox raceway two years in a row now. I'd happily contribute unpaid just to try and make a positive impact on the safety situation. The fact is that these people are scared to get out in front of bikes and make themselves noticeable. We ride so we get it. 

Why is that MX Guy? No sarcasm intended. Why won’t they let vet dudes flag? Or any experienced rider? 

lostboy819
Posts
11680
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
aurora, CO US
Fantasy
736th
7/10/2024 6:52am
We need in-helmet communications and/or a heads-up display or light type system under the helmet visor or something that can be attached to goggles.  Something that’s...

We need in-helmet communications and/or a heads-up display or light type system under the helmet visor or something that can be attached to goggles.  Something that’s activated by a spotter assigned to a specific area.

motomike137
Posts
7046
Joined
4/22/2010
Location
Fenton, MI US
7/10/2024 7:06am

I saw the incident in person. It happened pretty fast. You really would need the flagger in the previous corner to somehow know that a rider went down on the landing side of the table which said flagger couldn't see and know to waive the red cross. It was only 3 seconds. I am confident that they will work on the issue.

2

Post a reply to: Paid flaggers at Nationals

The Latest