KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

Cayden Thompson
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1/10/2025 10:33am
JazzyJJ wrote:

Has he done some good? Yes. Is he a snake oil salesmen? Yes

Both can be true 

What Snakeoil?

JazzyJJ wrote:
Well first off he didn't start PayPal or Tesla like he makes it seem. He also has never hit a deadline(interest free deposits anyone). Still waiting...

Well first off he didn't start PayPal or Tesla like he makes it seem. He also has never hit a deadline(interest free deposits anyone). Still waiting on these dream tunnels to save us from traffic. Oh, and the SolarCity bond buyout which was illegal to bailout family members using Tesla and SpaceX funds. There's plenty more examples but that's just off the top of my head. 

Still not "snakeoil." I agree his timelines are late but they are actively trying to solve these issues. 

1
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GrapeApe
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1/10/2025 11:39am Edited Date/Time 1/10/2025 11:40am
TbonesPop wrote:
More like, 2 highly successful, private industry, billionaire business people who started and escalated multiple companies to being extremely profitable, were brought in to help fix...

More like, 2 highly successful, private industry, billionaire business people who started and escalated multiple companies to being extremely profitable, were brought in to help fix a completely broken and ignorantly corrupt government that's massively deep in debt and no corrective action in sight.   Time will tell in terms of how it works out, but +70 consecutive years of the same shit ain't fixing the same shit as that's a train completely off the tracks.    Looks not too far off from the KTM fiasco - or at least where KTM is headed, except they aren't a government agency that can just print more money to solve their immediate problems to kick the can down the road.

Couldn't have said it better myself. There are correlations between PMG and the US Gov. And people can hate on Musk all they want but they...

Couldn't have said it better myself. There are correlations between PMG and the US Gov. And people can hate on Musk all they want but they have to put their personal feelings/politics aside and realize he is a net positive to society (a very high net gain). How can you dislike the guy?

-Eliminated millions of tons emissions into the atmosphere (Tesla)

-Saving lives with their FSD software (my Tesla has saved my life a couple times when I have dozed off) (Tesla)

-Trying to make full autonomous vehicles so people can rideshare and reduce more emissions and vehicles on the road (Tesla)

-Saving lives with their vehicles (safest on the road, 5 star ratings every category) (Tesla)

-Promoting free speech (1st Amendment). Eliminating censorship on X. Meta is now following suit

-Trying to reduce traffic (Boring company)

-Advancing space exploration and creating reusable rocket boosters (SpaceX)

-Saving stranded NASA astronauts with Crew Dragon Capsule at the space station when Boeing shits the bed (SpaceX)

-Creating an internet service that can be used anywhere, especially for poorer/rural areas and areas under distress (SpaceX, Starlink)

-Creating satellite-to- cell phone integration which save lives (SpaceX, Starlink)

-Military Defense (SpaceX, Starshield)

-AI advancement, soon to be integrated into Tesla vehicles (xAI)

-Brain computer interfaces for people with paralysis (Neuralink)

-I'm sure I'm forgetting something

Vital Lynchmob Effect (VLE) is real. I listed a plethora of facts of all the value the guy has added to humanity and all I get...

Vital Lynchmob Effect (VLE) is real. I listed a plethora of facts of all the value the guy has added to humanity and all I get is downvotes?

That goes to show what kind of society we have become...

Maybe people are sick of the kind of people that are constantly trying to inject social media politics into every thread? Do you have anything to add to the KTM conversation?

15
3
endurox
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1/10/2025 11:43am
MOTO13 wrote:
Even if they sold off Husky and Gas Gas mx lines to stream line the company, are they even worth anything? They are basically KTM's in...

Even if they sold off Husky and Gas Gas mx lines to stream line the company, are they even worth anything? They are basically KTM's in sheep's clothing. 

MPJC wrote:
Exactly. There's a reason they sold their stake in MV Augusta: Because they could. I have little doubt they would sell these brands if it were...

Exactly. There's a reason they sold their stake in MV Augusta: Because they could. I have little doubt they would sell these brands if it were possible, but I don't see how it would be possible when they are using KTM technology. 

Beagle wrote:

They could sell Gasgas trials: made in Spain in a brand new factory, not competing with any KTM nor Husky bikes.

PMC owns 60% of GG.. GG in Girona should buy out the 11% from Pierre and keep the trials production going in Spain. At least Spain has energy coming via pipeline from Algeria.. Austria and Germany governments are complete idiots concerning energy costs , the same incompetence as grewson in Ca. The cost of shipping LNG to Europe is expensive. 2 years of inventory as the economy world wide slows is pure arrogance from upper PM management. Fire sale is around the corner.

2

The Shop

Hammer 663s
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1/10/2025 11:46am
LOL you clearly don't work in tech. Its flooded with people that talk a great game but don't really do shit. And there's a certain demographic...

LOL you clearly don't work in tech. Its flooded with people that talk a great game but don't really do shit. And there's a certain demographic that only cares about checking boxes - quality control, testing, and planning are foreign to them. They just wing undocumented change and hope it works, then hide when it doesn't. I deal with this every day. Frankly, in almost EVERY tech firm I've worked for in my 30+ years (and there are some big names on the list) anyone above the operational management layer is almost invariably a clueless, acronym-spouting, shiny-object chasing waste of profit. I'm retiring in a couple years thankfully. If the $$$$ wasn't so good I'd have left years ago.

My current mgmt chain has no clue what I and my team do. I could do almost nothing and not have it known, but that's not how I work. I run a tight ship and we have one of the best facilities in the business as my team buys into the "do it right the first time" vision. Surprisingly, my CFO is pretty competent and conversant in the technology I run. But he did come from the nuclear Navy so he has some background.

JMX82 wrote:
+1 to that. The management takes the all credit from the success what in reality their staff has created and most of them are totally clueless...

+1 to that. The management takes the all credit from the success what in reality their staff has created and most of them are totally clueless what we are even doing. But when there's a failure it's newer their fault even when failure is usually caused by ridiculous timetables and cost saving requirements which they have set themselves 😔 

Team403 wrote:

No offense but If the game isn’t working for you go out on your own.. this is business and it’s not fair…

None taken - I think the point JMX82 and I are making is that much of corporate (and political) leadership is a vacuum only populated by people that don't actually produce anything. They are leeches that live of the blood of their labor pool/taxpayer. They are solely interested in how many beans they can collect, without concern for the impact their greed/incompetence has on their subordinates. It appears from the outside that we are seeing exactly this hubris with PMG. The simple fact that they bought the foundry just months ago, KNOWING they were in dire financial straits, only to see it go under less than 6 months later seems to prove our thesis. It's happened over and over again in many industries, big and small. We only care about this instance since it's directly related to our passion for moto. I'm sad for the real working class at KTM, and for us consumers that like their product, that this is happening. After over 10 years and many bikes, I bought my last new KTMs in the 2022 model year. IMHO since then their quality has gone downhill significantly, and now I cannot trust that parts will be available when I need them. Even if they survive this, the product will never be the same again.

13
2
MxAddic
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1/10/2025 12:28pm Edited Date/Time 1/10/2025 12:34pm
That's bold of CFMOTO wanting majority ownership

That's bold of CFMOTO wanting majority ownership

image 935

Here's the rub. That is the only way they do things. They would never allow it any other way like Bajaj did with Pierer. China would then have the best technology in the world.

Both partners could buy the shooting match if they want to. Right now control is being cock blocked. It's a chess game and the odds are long for Stefan.

3
MPJC
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1/10/2025 12:48pm
TbonesPop wrote:
More like, 2 highly successful, private industry, billionaire business people who started and escalated multiple companies to being extremely profitable, were brought in to help fix...

More like, 2 highly successful, private industry, billionaire business people who started and escalated multiple companies to being extremely profitable, were brought in to help fix a completely broken and ignorantly corrupt government that's massively deep in debt and no corrective action in sight.   Time will tell in terms of how it works out, but +70 consecutive years of the same shit ain't fixing the same shit as that's a train completely off the tracks.    Looks not too far off from the KTM fiasco - or at least where KTM is headed, except they aren't a government agency that can just print more money to solve their immediate problems to kick the can down the road.

Couldn't have said it better myself. There are correlations between PMG and the US Gov. And people can hate on Musk all they want but they...

Couldn't have said it better myself. There are correlations between PMG and the US Gov. And people can hate on Musk all they want but they have to put their personal feelings/politics aside and realize he is a net positive to society (a very high net gain). How can you dislike the guy?

-Eliminated millions of tons emissions into the atmosphere (Tesla)

-Saving lives with their FSD software (my Tesla has saved my life a couple times when I have dozed off) (Tesla)

-Trying to make full autonomous vehicles so people can rideshare and reduce more emissions and vehicles on the road (Tesla)

-Saving lives with their vehicles (safest on the road, 5 star ratings every category) (Tesla)

-Promoting free speech (1st Amendment). Eliminating censorship on X. Meta is now following suit

-Trying to reduce traffic (Boring company)

-Advancing space exploration and creating reusable rocket boosters (SpaceX)

-Saving stranded NASA astronauts with Crew Dragon Capsule at the space station when Boeing shits the bed (SpaceX)

-Creating an internet service that can be used anywhere, especially for poorer/rural areas and areas under distress (SpaceX, Starlink)

-Creating satellite-to- cell phone integration which save lives (SpaceX, Starlink)

-Military Defense (SpaceX, Starshield)

-AI advancement, soon to be integrated into Tesla vehicles (xAI)

-Brain computer interfaces for people with paralysis (Neuralink)

-I'm sure I'm forgetting something

Vital Lynchmob Effect (VLE) is real. I listed a plethora of facts of all the value the guy has added to humanity and all I get...

Vital Lynchmob Effect (VLE) is real. I listed a plethora of facts of all the value the guy has added to humanity and all I get is downvotes?

That goes to show what kind of society we have become...

Apparently, we've become a society where some people think the phrase "facts of all the value" is philosophically coherent. 

1
Beagle
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1/10/2025 1:13pm Edited Date/Time 1/10/2025 1:36pm

Thanks, thoughtful and well written 👍

Great to put things into perspective and show the amazing success PMG has enjoyed as a business in the last 10 years.

IMHO a little bit of "dirt biker bias" forgetting that PMG sells more street bikes than dirt bikes and that MotoGP is used for brand awareness and helps sell bikes, just not dirt bikes.

Also I don't think of bicycles as a red herring as much as a symptom of acquisition fever, did not really make sense and is contributing to the debt (not the main cause but cost of acquisition plus losses didn't help). Here are some numbers for bicycles: they more or less broke even in 2022 (2.5M EBIT) then EBIT turned negative at -47.1M for 2023. Net debt for bicycles was -222.5M in 2023. Then EBIT for H1 2024 was -195M (in 6 months!).

One part that is definitely head scratching to me is reading the financial reports how the risks had been correctly identified and assessed in past years. Hubris I guess.

2
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MxAddic
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NY US
1/10/2025 2:22pm Edited Date/Time 1/10/2025 5:36pm
mxjeff575 wrote:
Brtp4 wrote:
Beagle wrote:
Thanks, thoughtful and well written 👍Great to put things into perspective and show the amazing success PMG has enjoyed as a business in the last 10...

Thanks, thoughtful and well written 👍

Great to put things into perspective and show the amazing success PMG has enjoyed as a business in the last 10 years.

IMHO a little bit of "dirt biker bias" forgetting that PMG sells more street bikes than dirt bikes and that MotoGP is used for brand awareness and helps sell bikes, just not dirt bikes.

Also I don't think of bicycles as a red herring as much as a symptom of acquisition fever, did not really make sense and is contributing to the debt (not the main cause but cost of acquisition plus losses didn't help). Here are some numbers for bicycles: they more or less broke even in 2022 (2.5M EBIT) then EBIT turned negative at -47.1M for 2023. Net debt for bicycles was -222.5M in 2023. Then EBIT for H1 2024 was -195M (in 6 months!).

One part that is definitely head scratching to me is reading the financial reports how the risks had been correctly identified and assessed in past years. Hubris I guess.

I don't think you understand what he is saying. You have it 180 degrees ass backwards. He is saying just as I have been and others also the reports do not represent the risk. Why do you think the banksters gave him an unlimited credit card? You seem obsessed on finding something in it where it went bad.

The shitton of red flags where flown by folks in the company and out represented the risk and got dismissed by naysayers.

2
1/10/2025 3:33pm Edited Date/Time 1/10/2025 9:08pm

What Snakeoil?

JazzyJJ wrote:
Well first off he didn't start PayPal or Tesla like he makes it seem. He also has never hit a deadline(interest free deposits anyone). Still waiting...

Well first off he didn't start PayPal or Tesla like he makes it seem. He also has never hit a deadline(interest free deposits anyone). Still waiting on these dream tunnels to save us from traffic. Oh, and the SolarCity bond buyout which was illegal to bailout family members using Tesla and SpaceX funds. There's plenty more examples but that's just off the top of my head. 

Still not "snakeoil." I agree his timelines are late but they are actively trying to solve these issues. 

While Elon clearly vastly overpromises and under-delivers at times, I think Vivek is the one that was being hit on more directly for being a "snake oil saleman". 

Vivek literally made his vast fortune selling an already-established-as-bunk Alzheimers cure that left patients and shareholders behind, while he benefited greatly -- Pretty much in the exact mold of the classic "snake oil" magic health elixir sales scheme.

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Last2Stroke
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1/10/2025 3:53pm

What Snakeoil?

"We're gonna find $2T to cut!". That was BS when he said it, and he's already backed off. Just like the Orange Clown has decided lowering...

"We're gonna find $2T to cut!". That was BS when he said it, and he's already backed off. Just like the Orange Clown has decided lowering consumer prices is going to be tougher than he claimed. I'm also looking forward to them stopping the Ukraine/Russia war by Jan 7th. How do I know they are lying? Their lips are moving. No, I am not a Democrat. I used to be a Republican. Now I'm just disillusioned by the pervasive idiocy in our system.

Axlnut_KM3 wrote:
So I don't think you understand what a snake oil salesman is.What is he trying to sell you (Musk) that isn't real, or do what it...

So I don't think you understand what a snake oil salesman is.

What is he trying to sell you (Musk) that isn't real, or do what it promises to do, IN WHOLE - IE, FSD being delayed doesn't mean you didn't get a whole ass car that otherwise does what it claims - 

To be a snake oil salesman, he needs to be offering you a bill of goods in exchange for currency, then not delivering. 

- Posted from Starlink, my only viable internet option that delivers exactly what it says on the box

"Posted from Starlink, my only viable internet option that delivers exactly what it says on the box"

Does it link to the stars?

That's what it says on the box...

IMG 9265-scaled-1017995315.jpg?VersionId=CvR5YWK.KYR
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Cayden Thompson
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1/10/2025 3:56pm
JazzyJJ wrote:
Well first off he didn't start PayPal or Tesla like he makes it seem. He also has never hit a deadline(interest free deposits anyone). Still waiting...

Well first off he didn't start PayPal or Tesla like he makes it seem. He also has never hit a deadline(interest free deposits anyone). Still waiting on these dream tunnels to save us from traffic. Oh, and the SolarCity bond buyout which was illegal to bailout family members using Tesla and SpaceX funds. There's plenty more examples but that's just off the top of my head. 

Still not "snakeoil." I agree his timelines are late but they are actively trying to solve these issues. 

While Elon clearly vastly overpromises and under-delivers at times, I think Vivek is the one that was being hit on more directly for being a "snake...

While Elon clearly vastly overpromises and under-delivers at times, I think Vivek is the one that was being hit on more directly for being a "snake oil saleman". 

Vivek literally made his vast fortune selling an already-established-as-bunk Alzheimers cure that left patients and shareholders behind, while he benefited greatly -- Pretty much in the exact mold of the classic "snake oil" magic health elixir sales scheme.

Yeah I wasn't referring to Vivek and don't know much about the guy.

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Last2Stroke
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1/10/2025 3:58pm
JMX82 wrote:
+1 to that. The management takes the all credit from the success what in reality their staff has created and most of them are totally clueless...

+1 to that. The management takes the all credit from the success what in reality their staff has created and most of them are totally clueless what we are even doing. But when there's a failure it's newer their fault even when failure is usually caused by ridiculous timetables and cost saving requirements which they have set themselves 😔 

Team403 wrote:

No offense but If the game isn’t working for you go out on your own.. this is business and it’s not fair…

None taken - I think the point JMX82 and I are making is that much of corporate (and political) leadership is a vacuum only populated by...

None taken - I think the point JMX82 and I are making is that much of corporate (and political) leadership is a vacuum only populated by people that don't actually produce anything. They are leeches that live of the blood of their labor pool/taxpayer. They are solely interested in how many beans they can collect, without concern for the impact their greed/incompetence has on their subordinates. It appears from the outside that we are seeing exactly this hubris with PMG. The simple fact that they bought the foundry just months ago, KNOWING they were in dire financial straits, only to see it go under less than 6 months later seems to prove our thesis. It's happened over and over again in many industries, big and small. We only care about this instance since it's directly related to our passion for moto. I'm sad for the real working class at KTM, and for us consumers that like their product, that this is happening. After over 10 years and many bikes, I bought my last new KTMs in the 2022 model year. IMHO since then their quality has gone downhill significantly, and now I cannot trust that parts will be available when I need them. Even if they survive this, the product will never be the same again.

I thought you were talking about Boeing!

2
1
1/10/2025 4:00pm

Still not "snakeoil." I agree his timelines are late but they are actively trying to solve these issues. 

While Elon clearly vastly overpromises and under-delivers at times, I think Vivek is the one that was being hit on more directly for being a "snake...

While Elon clearly vastly overpromises and under-delivers at times, I think Vivek is the one that was being hit on more directly for being a "snake oil saleman". 

Vivek literally made his vast fortune selling an already-established-as-bunk Alzheimers cure that left patients and shareholders behind, while he benefited greatly -- Pretty much in the exact mold of the classic "snake oil" magic health elixir sales scheme.

Yeah I wasn't referring to Vivek and don't know much about the guy.

Well, take a look man, nobody is stopping you.

1
2
Hammer 663s
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1/10/2025 4:41pm
Team403 wrote:

No offense but If the game isn’t working for you go out on your own.. this is business and it’s not fair…

None taken - I think the point JMX82 and I are making is that much of corporate (and political) leadership is a vacuum only populated by...

None taken - I think the point JMX82 and I are making is that much of corporate (and political) leadership is a vacuum only populated by people that don't actually produce anything. They are leeches that live of the blood of their labor pool/taxpayer. They are solely interested in how many beans they can collect, without concern for the impact their greed/incompetence has on their subordinates. It appears from the outside that we are seeing exactly this hubris with PMG. The simple fact that they bought the foundry just months ago, KNOWING they were in dire financial straits, only to see it go under less than 6 months later seems to prove our thesis. It's happened over and over again in many industries, big and small. We only care about this instance since it's directly related to our passion for moto. I'm sad for the real working class at KTM, and for us consumers that like their product, that this is happening. After over 10 years and many bikes, I bought my last new KTMs in the 2022 model year. IMHO since then their quality has gone downhill significantly, and now I cannot trust that parts will be available when I need them. Even if they survive this, the product will never be the same again.

I thought you were talking about Boeing!

No, Intel. Wait! Nike?

2
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Spoonguy
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1/10/2025 5:31pm
JMX82 wrote:
+1 to that. The management takes the all credit from the success what in reality their staff has created and most of them are totally clueless...

+1 to that. The management takes the all credit from the success what in reality their staff has created and most of them are totally clueless what we are even doing. But when there's a failure it's newer their fault even when failure is usually caused by ridiculous timetables and cost saving requirements which they have set themselves 😔 

Team403 wrote:

No offense but If the game isn’t working for you go out on your own.. this is business and it’s not fair…

None taken - I think the point JMX82 and I are making is that much of corporate (and political) leadership is a vacuum only populated by...

None taken - I think the point JMX82 and I are making is that much of corporate (and political) leadership is a vacuum only populated by people that don't actually produce anything. They are leeches that live of the blood of their labor pool/taxpayer. They are solely interested in how many beans they can collect, without concern for the impact their greed/incompetence has on their subordinates. It appears from the outside that we are seeing exactly this hubris with PMG. The simple fact that they bought the foundry just months ago, KNOWING they were in dire financial straits, only to see it go under less than 6 months later seems to prove our thesis. It's happened over and over again in many industries, big and small. We only care about this instance since it's directly related to our passion for moto. I'm sad for the real working class at KTM, and for us consumers that like their product, that this is happening. After over 10 years and many bikes, I bought my last new KTMs in the 2022 model year. IMHO since then their quality has gone downhill significantly, and now I cannot trust that parts will be available when I need them. Even if they survive this, the product will never be the same again.

Guess you are saying don't be part of the labor pool?

1
Hammer 663s
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1/10/2025 6:07pm Edited Date/Time 1/10/2025 6:08pm
Team403 wrote:

No offense but If the game isn’t working for you go out on your own.. this is business and it’s not fair…

None taken - I think the point JMX82 and I are making is that much of corporate (and political) leadership is a vacuum only populated by...

None taken - I think the point JMX82 and I are making is that much of corporate (and political) leadership is a vacuum only populated by people that don't actually produce anything. They are leeches that live of the blood of their labor pool/taxpayer. They are solely interested in how many beans they can collect, without concern for the impact their greed/incompetence has on their subordinates. It appears from the outside that we are seeing exactly this hubris with PMG. The simple fact that they bought the foundry just months ago, KNOWING they were in dire financial straits, only to see it go under less than 6 months later seems to prove our thesis. It's happened over and over again in many industries, big and small. We only care about this instance since it's directly related to our passion for moto. I'm sad for the real working class at KTM, and for us consumers that like their product, that this is happening. After over 10 years and many bikes, I bought my last new KTMs in the 2022 model year. IMHO since then their quality has gone downhill significantly, and now I cannot trust that parts will be available when I need them. Even if they survive this, the product will never be the same again.

Spoonguy wrote:

Guess you are saying don't be part of the labor pool?

No, not really. I’ve always been a part of the labor pool and it’s paid well. Now, even tho I’m in a 40,000+ org, I’m in a position where I have a lot of autonomy, with the authority and the budget to do things the way I feel they should be done. I just never had the balls to go out on my own. Props to those that do. 

9
Beagle
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1/11/2025 1:40am Edited Date/Time 1/11/2025 1:56am
Brtp4 wrote:
Beagle wrote:
Thanks, thoughtful and well written 👍Great to put things into perspective and show the amazing success PMG has enjoyed as a business in the last 10...

Thanks, thoughtful and well written 👍

Great to put things into perspective and show the amazing success PMG has enjoyed as a business in the last 10 years.

IMHO a little bit of "dirt biker bias" forgetting that PMG sells more street bikes than dirt bikes and that MotoGP is used for brand awareness and helps sell bikes, just not dirt bikes.

Also I don't think of bicycles as a red herring as much as a symptom of acquisition fever, did not really make sense and is contributing to the debt (not the main cause but cost of acquisition plus losses didn't help). Here are some numbers for bicycles: they more or less broke even in 2022 (2.5M EBIT) then EBIT turned negative at -47.1M for 2023. Net debt for bicycles was -222.5M in 2023. Then EBIT for H1 2024 was -195M (in 6 months!).

One part that is definitely head scratching to me is reading the financial reports how the risks had been correctly identified and assessed in past years. Hubris I guess.

MxAddic wrote:
I don't think you understand what he is saying. You have it 180 degrees ass backwards. He is saying just as I have been and others...

I don't think you understand what he is saying. You have it 180 degrees ass backwards. He is saying just as I have been and others also the reports do not represent the risk. Why do you think the banksters gave him an unlimited credit card? You seem obsessed on finding something in it where it went bad.

The shitton of red flags where flown by folks in the company and out represented the risk and got dismissed by naysayers.

Dear Vital Oracle, why do you keep doing this to yourself? 500 posts a month is more than enough to assess your reading comprehension, thank you.

I have enjoyed Atomic writing and I'm discussing a minor point of his blog posts about the relative merits of PMG MotoGP and bicycle ventures. 

Many focus on MotoGP but as a matter of fact, the debt ran by the bicycle division in 2023 would have been enough to fund the MotoGP effort for 5 years.

I thought that might help put things into perspective.

And of course I would argue that the marketing and R&D benefits of racing MotoGP massively outweigh those of selling bicycles.

Have a nice day.

6
Spoonguy
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1/11/2025 5:00am
None taken - I think the point JMX82 and I are making is that much of corporate (and political) leadership is a vacuum only populated by...

None taken - I think the point JMX82 and I are making is that much of corporate (and political) leadership is a vacuum only populated by people that don't actually produce anything. They are leeches that live of the blood of their labor pool/taxpayer. They are solely interested in how many beans they can collect, without concern for the impact their greed/incompetence has on their subordinates. It appears from the outside that we are seeing exactly this hubris with PMG. The simple fact that they bought the foundry just months ago, KNOWING they were in dire financial straits, only to see it go under less than 6 months later seems to prove our thesis. It's happened over and over again in many industries, big and small. We only care about this instance since it's directly related to our passion for moto. I'm sad for the real working class at KTM, and for us consumers that like their product, that this is happening. After over 10 years and many bikes, I bought my last new KTMs in the 2022 model year. IMHO since then their quality has gone downhill significantly, and now I cannot trust that parts will be available when I need them. Even if they survive this, the product will never be the same again.

Spoonguy wrote:

Guess you are saying don't be part of the labor pool?

No, not really. I’ve always been a part of the labor pool and it’s paid well. Now, even tho I’m in a 40,000+ org, I’m in...

No, not really. I’ve always been a part of the labor pool and it’s paid well. Now, even tho I’m in a 40,000+ org, I’m in a position where I have a lot of autonomy, with the authority and the budget to do things the way I feel they should be done. I just never had the balls to go out on my own. Props to those that do. 

Thought you were going to go down that whole tired old "oppressed/oppressor" narrative. Good God that gets weak.

1
Spoonguy
Posts
2250
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Location
Mc Kean, PA US
1/11/2025 5:02am
JazzyJJ wrote:
Well first off he didn't start PayPal or Tesla like he makes it seem. He also has never hit a deadline(interest free deposits anyone). Still waiting...

Well first off he didn't start PayPal or Tesla like he makes it seem. He also has never hit a deadline(interest free deposits anyone). Still waiting on these dream tunnels to save us from traffic. Oh, and the SolarCity bond buyout which was illegal to bailout family members using Tesla and SpaceX funds. There's plenty more examples but that's just off the top of my head. 

Still not "snakeoil." I agree his timelines are late but they are actively trying to solve these issues. 

While Elon clearly vastly overpromises and under-delivers at times, I think Vivek is the one that was being hit on more directly for being a "snake...

While Elon clearly vastly overpromises and under-delivers at times, I think Vivek is the one that was being hit on more directly for being a "snake oil saleman". 

Vivek literally made his vast fortune selling an already-established-as-bunk Alzheimers cure that left patients and shareholders behind, while he benefited greatly -- Pretty much in the exact mold of the classic "snake oil" magic health elixir sales scheme.

Gee, sounds pretty easy to become a billionaire. Have to give my kids the heads up.

1
MxAddic
Posts
4814
Joined
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Location
NY US
1/11/2025 5:03am Edited Date/Time 1/11/2025 5:08am
Beagle wrote:
Dear Vital Oracle, why do you keep doing this to yourself? 500 posts a month is more than enough to assess your reading comprehension, thank you.I...

Dear Vital Oracle, why do you keep doing this to yourself? 500 posts a month is more than enough to assess your reading comprehension, thank you.

I have enjoyed Atomic writing and I'm discussing a minor point of his blog posts about the relative merits of PMG MotoGP and bicycle ventures. 

Many focus on MotoGP but as a matter of fact, the debt ran by the bicycle division in 2023 would have been enough to fund the MotoGP effort for 5 years.

I thought that might help put things into perspective.

And of course I would argue that the marketing and R&D benefits of racing MotoGP massively outweigh those of selling bicycles.

Have a nice day.

First I an asshole because I am wrong, now I am an asshole because I was right…

Same old clown bullshit.

7
Timo
Posts
968
Joined
1/9/2021
Location
Wichita, KS US
1/11/2025 7:13am
Axlnut_KM3 wrote:
So I don't think you understand what a snake oil salesman is.What is he trying to sell you (Musk) that isn't real, or do what it...

So I don't think you understand what a snake oil salesman is.

What is he trying to sell you (Musk) that isn't real, or do what it promises to do, IN WHOLE - IE, FSD being delayed doesn't mean you didn't get a whole ass car that otherwise does what it claims - 

To be a snake oil salesman, he needs to be offering you a bill of goods in exchange for currency, then not delivering. 

- Posted from Starlink, my only viable internet option that delivers exactly what it says on the box

Colonizing Mars is a big one 😂 

GPrider
Posts
557
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4/10/2014
Location
La Mesa, CA US
1/11/2025 7:21am

this has been beat to death. Let me know when rebates come back so I can get a new bike. 

5
Team403
Posts
360
Joined
12/21/2023
Location
Lago Vista, TX US
1/11/2025 7:26am

I’m just here for the motorcycle stuff…

4
kage173
Posts
2412
Joined
11/27/2015
Location
TX US
1/11/2025 7:38am
Axlnut_KM3 wrote:
So I don't think you understand what a snake oil salesman is.What is he trying to sell you (Musk) that isn't real, or do what it...

So I don't think you understand what a snake oil salesman is.

What is he trying to sell you (Musk) that isn't real, or do what it promises to do, IN WHOLE - IE, FSD being delayed doesn't mean you didn't get a whole ass car that otherwise does what it claims - 

To be a snake oil salesman, he needs to be offering you a bill of goods in exchange for currency, then not delivering. 

- Posted from Starlink, my only viable internet option that delivers exactly what it says on the box

Timo wrote:

Colonizing Mars is a big one 😂 

What isn't real about colonizing Mars? We already have rovers on Mars exploring the surface. We hav e the technology to make it habitable. 

The only obstacle is the cost of getting equipment and supplies into space. And SpaceX is well on their way to reducing the cost enough to make the economics viable. It costs NASA and everyone else on the planet $70k per kg of payload. It costs SpaceX $1.5-3k per kg right now. They've already dropped it an order of magnitude. If they drop it below $100 per kg, it's a done deal.

 

2
4
Hammer 663s
Posts
2650
Joined
6/2/2016
Location
Forest Grove, OR US
1/11/2025 8:55am
Spoonguy wrote:

Guess you are saying don't be part of the labor pool?

No, not really. I’ve always been a part of the labor pool and it’s paid well. Now, even tho I’m in a 40,000+ org, I’m in...

No, not really. I’ve always been a part of the labor pool and it’s paid well. Now, even tho I’m in a 40,000+ org, I’m in a position where I have a lot of autonomy, with the authority and the budget to do things the way I feel they should be done. I just never had the balls to go out on my own. Props to those that do. 

Spoonguy wrote:

Thought you were going to go down that whole tired old "oppressed/oppressor" narrative. Good God that gets weak.

LOL no. I'm from PA too. My old man was a Weatherly coal miner at 12 and my grandpa died of black lung at 68. I don't play the woe-is-me game. Wink

5

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