false advertising for engine oils

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5/4/2020 6:16 PM

Did you know that oil manufacturers are allowed to label their product as “synthetic” or even “fully synthetic” when it is only partially synthetic? For example, Motorex POWER SYNT 2T is promoted as “Fully synthetic” on their web site but according to their data sheets it has 25-50% group 1 dinosaur oil. How do I know this? I looked up their data and followed the CAS oil number to find the data that reveals it is dinosaur oil, the smokey stuff that has to used at a lower gas/oil ratio. As far as I know I am the only person who has done a full expose on 2 stroke engine oils. Probably half you people reading this are using similar oils at too high a gas/oil ratio. You should read my expose to get an idea about the oil you are using. Read up on the subject at www.dragonfly75.com/moto/oil.html and if an oil is not listed there then most probably the manufacturer is such a sleazy group of scammers that they don’t make publicly available their data sheets.

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www.dragonfly75.com/moto/ all about 2 Stroke technology, including calculators

5/5/2020 3:38 AM

TLDR: Buy oil from a reputable brand and run it without worry.

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5/5/2020 7:33 AM

"I should use 37:1 for the oil I am using now but I'm using 32:1 since the piston/rings are aftermarket parts from China, not original Suzuki parts, and so they need more help to wear down slowly."

The above statement taken from your webpage tells me all I need to know. Thanks

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2018 KX450F
2005 KX250
2003 KDX 220
1984 KX 80
1982 RM 80
1980 RM 80
1977 XR 75
1969 Honda Mini 50

5/5/2020 9:51 AM

I read mobil 1 full synthetic is not synthetic. It's just a more refined oil. This is used by tons of OEM car manufacturers

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5/5/2020 11:01 AM

dkurtd wrote:

"I should use 37:1 for the oil I am using now but I'm using 32:1 since the piston/rings are aftermarket parts from China, not original Suzuki parts, and so they need more help to wear down slowly."

The above statement taken from your webpage tells me all I need to know. Thanks

"Our amps go to 11"........

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5/5/2020 4:51 PM

I run 37.8:1
Just for that extra edge!

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5/5/2020 6:51 PM

It’s a non issue if you don’t run any oil at all 🤙

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5/6/2020 8:48 AM

That 25%-50% is solvent. It is a necessary component for oils meant for injection systems. All oils designed for use in 2-stroke oil injection systems utilize solvents at certain levels depending on the rest of the formula. If it weren't present, the high viscosity of the oil would prevent adequate delivery and the engine would be starved for oil. The solvents may also have some cleaning/deposit reduction properties, though the viscosity modification is the big effect.

Synthetic solvents exist but their compatibility with the fuel system at large and oil components may be troublesome, they would be exorbitantly more expensive, and they would offer no real benefit over most petroleum based solvents, which do a great job.

On another note, about halfway down your "expose" you have some copyrighted material copied and pasted from my website without attribution. I find this kinda funny since you disparage me personally at the bottom of your "expose" after using my content.

And before you start accusing me of being a "disinformation agent" for big oil, I don't work for Bel-Ray anymore and I left the oil industry almost 2 years ago. I have zero vested interest in the topic other than wanting to prevent people from believing BS they read on the internet from people who don't know what they are talking about.

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I can do anything, I'm an expert.
MotoTribology.com - Motorcycle Lubrication Education

5/6/2020 10:17 AM

Liberal or conservative? Synthetic or mineral? Nothing brings the hate out more than a good "oil" debate thread.

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5/6/2020 11:08 AM

MotoTrib, welcome back from the world of big oil disinformation. Now maybe you can be a normal honest person.
Are you sure CAS 64742-47-8 is a solvent and not a group 1 oil? If it is a solvent then that is disturbing because it is often mixed with group 1 or 2 oils. PJ1 Goldfire Pro has up to 30% of it and 35% group 2 oil. So to me that is bad that so much solvent is mixed with a group 1 or 2 oil.

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www.dragonfly75.com/moto/ all about 2 Stroke technology, including calculators

5/6/2020 1:20 PM

I was never in that world, you are just a conspiracy theorist who refuses to listen to reason. I have never been dishonest in my information regarding lubricants, or at least not knowingly. I can't say I am normal though.

That CAS covers a lot of different things including solvents and lubricating oils. Petroleum solvents are by definition a group I oil. CAS numbers often cover wide ranges of materials with regard to petroleum. I say it is a solvent because:
1. They say the product is synthetic
2. The percentage is indicative of typical solvent content in 2 stroke oils.

Neither you nor anyone else can judge how good a product performs based on anything from an SDS. You can get a general idea of base oil content and you can speculate based on some of the properties and that is about it.

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I can do anything, I'm an expert.
MotoTribology.com - Motorcycle Lubrication Education

5/6/2020 1:40 PM

Ha! Conspiracy theorist is a compliment to me. I think only stupid people don't realize that human history is rife with the rich and powerful conspiring against the lower masses of people. "The love of money is the root of all evil"

OK so that makes sense that it would be a solvent in a synthetic product but wouldn't it be normal to speculate that it would be a group 1 oil in PJ1 Goldfire Pro or anything similar to it?

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www.dragonfly75.com/moto/ all about 2 Stroke technology, including calculators

5/6/2020 1:41 PM

Mkerrwrench wrote:

It’s a non issue if you don’t run any oil at all 🤙

Heck yeah! Oil just adds extra weight.

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5/6/2020 9:36 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/6/2020 9:38 PM

jaguar57 wrote:

Ha! Conspiracy theorist is a compliment to me. I think only stupid people don't realize that human history is rife with the rich and powerful conspiring against the lower masses of people. "The love of money is the root of all evil"

OK so that makes sense that it would be a solvent in a synthetic product but wouldn't it be normal to speculate that it would be a group 1 oil in PJ1 Goldfire Pro or anything similar to it?

You have suggested that it is a big oil conspiracy (and I was an agent of that conspiracy) because lubricant companies do not disclose the exact contents of their formulas that they spend tens of thousands to tens of millions of dollars developing. I suppose it is "conspiring" by definition minus the unlawful or detrimental effects of a typical conspiracy since it does good rather than bad, but then again, the "lower masses of people" as you put have absolutely no right to that information. What company would be able to stay in business while giving away all of its proprietary trade secrets which are the only reason they are in business to begin with?

It isn't conspiring against the lower masses, it is business where trade secrets give you an edge over the competition and allow you to produce better products for your customers sine it can't be easily copied.

To answer your question, yes, if that CAS is listed for that product is probably reasonable to speculate it has group I oil. Then again, the label says it has petroleum oil in it, so that is an even better indication it has group I oil in it.

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I can do anything, I'm an expert.
MotoTribology.com - Motorcycle Lubrication Education

5/6/2020 9:46 PM

not so much a conspiracy but just being irresponsible by not giving us a good chart for each oil with a specific recommendation based on max RPM and type of engine cooling. Or maybe it was a legal fear they had of being sued when people seized and wanted to blame the oil company instead of their own inability to jet right.

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www.dragonfly75.com/moto/ all about 2 Stroke technology, including calculators

5/9/2020 11:29 AM

Group 2, 3 and 4 base oils can have very low viscosity, no need to cut formulations with solvents, which will totally screw up the VI of the lubricant. I’ve worked for two of the global majors for 29 years now, the only pure solvents used would be the base liquid on pour point depressant additives, and these go in decimal percentages in the final product.

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5/9/2020 11:36 AM

That being said I have seen formulations of real low tier products having solvents in them. These are cheap ass no name brand lubricants that don’t meet the specs they claim on their labels.

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5/9/2020 11:59 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/10/2020 9:13 PM

Africa, group 3 and 4 oils definitely do not ever have low viscosity so I don't know where you are coming from. Maybe since Tribology dropped the torch of being the oil company disinformation agent maybe now you are picking it back up.

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www.dragonfly75.com/moto/ all about 2 Stroke technology, including calculators

5/11/2020 5:44 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/11/2020 5:49 AM

AfricaOffroad wrote:

Group 2, 3 and 4 base oils can have very low viscosity, no need to cut formulations with solvents, which will totally screw up the VI of the lubricant. I’ve worked for two of the global majors for 29 years now, the only pure solvents used would be the base liquid on pour point depressant additives, and these go in decimal percentages in the final product.

Wanna know how I know you didn't work in the R&D departments of those "global majors"?

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I can do anything, I'm an expert.
MotoTribology.com - Motorcycle Lubrication Education

5/11/2020 5:53 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/11/2020 6:37 AM

Low viscosity group 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 oils exist. It is actually more difficult to make a high viscosity group 3 and 4 oil than a low viscosity one.

Since group 3's are hydro-cracked from higher carbon chain molecules into lower carbon chain molecules, low viscosity is easier to accomplish and even desirable depending on how it is being used in the formula.

Using a low vis group 2, 3 , or 4 as the main base oil for a 2-stroke oil would make a terrible product though. You want a high viscosity lube base oil to provide the film strength after the solvent (used for delivery through the system) burns off.

That is a very simplified explanation, but using a low vis base oil on par with solvent in terms of viscosity, for the bulk of the formula would provide practically nothing in terms of protection.

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I can do anything, I'm an expert.
MotoTribology.com - Motorcycle Lubrication Education

5/11/2020 6:36 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/11/2020 6:49 AM

But consider Shell Advance Ultra 2T and its high viscosity at 40C and its relatively low viscosity index (compared to group 5 synthetic oils), It is made of group 3 oil.

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www.dragonfly75.com/moto/ all about 2 Stroke technology, including calculators

5/11/2020 9:07 AM

AfricaOffroad wrote:

Group 2, 3 and 4 base oils can have very low viscosity, no need to cut formulations with solvents, which will totally screw up the VI of the lubricant. I’ve worked for two of the global majors for 29 years now, the only pure solvents used would be the base liquid on pour point depressant additives, and these go in decimal percentages in the final product.

MotoTribology wrote:

Wanna know how I know you didn't work in the R&D departments of those "global majors"?

Correct, I run the supply chain and manufacturing activities. I don’t develop the formulations

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5/11/2020 9:11 AM

jaguar57 wrote:

Africa, group 3 and 4 oils definitely do not ever have low viscosity so I don't know where you are coming from. Maybe since Tribology dropped the torch of being the oil company disinformation agent maybe now you are picking it back up.

Maybe you should stick to breeding Jaguars or something.

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5/13/2020 8:45 AM

jaguar57 wrote:

not so much a conspiracy but just being irresponsible by not giving us a good chart for each oil with a specific recommendation based on max RPM and type of engine cooling. Or maybe it was a legal fear they had of being sued when people seized and wanted to blame the oil company instead of their own inability to jet right.

Oh yeah the gauge is pegged on this one, boys!

Photo

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5/14/2020 11:55 AM

To go all the way back up to the OP's original sentence, yes I know that oil manufacturers are allowed to call something "full synthetic" when it's not all man-made ingredients. In fact, if you believe like I do that Group 3 oils are not synthetic*, then NONE (or close to none) of the contents of some "full synthetic" oils are synthetic.
I believe as long as 50% or more of a lubricant product is synthetic, then it can be called "semi-syn," and 70% or more can be called "full syn." (Help me out with my percentages, Moto Tribology...)



*For those who do not know, fossil oils can be refined into three groups, each stage a more complex process. The third stage leaves conventional base oil which is so refined, it behaves in many ways like a synthetic oil.

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Braaapin' aint easy.

5/15/2020 5:56 AM

Those percentage thresholds are for import taxes really. So if a company is importing/exporting products and doesn't want to raise the eyebrows of a customer who is charged non-synthetic taxes but charged synthetic prices, they might maintain certain levels to keep those eyebrows down.

It all depends on the company though and how they handle their business. I've seen it done, but I honestly don't know how much it happens or who does it anymore.

For the marketing angle, I believe only Germany, and by association the EU, have a legal definition of the term. I may be out of date with that info though too.

I never liked the marketing, legal, and tax stuff. That's why I stuck to the tech side. That changes at a much slower pace.

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I can do anything, I'm an expert.
MotoTribology.com - Motorcycle Lubrication Education

5/18/2020 1:06 PM

jaguar57 wrote:

not so much a conspiracy but just being irresponsible by not giving us a good chart for each oil with a specific recommendation based on max RPM and type of engine cooling. Or maybe it was a legal fear they had of being sued when people seized and wanted to blame the oil company instead of their own inability to jet right.

Jbulz wrote:

Oh yeah the gauge is pegged on this one, boys!

Photo

laughing laughing laughing
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5/19/2020 8:17 AM

Anyone done a legitimate test of a brand new engine on a dyno running 32:1 and one running 40/50:1
to measure hp and ring/piston life

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5/19/2020 11:27 AM

Well we aren't in the 70's when all the oils had the same viscosity. That is what determines the gas/oil ratio as well as the type engine cooling and the max RPM. So just talking ratios in 2020 is a very uninformed point of view. An oil made with group 1/2 petroleum oils mixed at 30:1 can protect as well as a fully synthetic oil mixed at 45:1.

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www.dragonfly75.com/moto/ all about 2 Stroke technology, including calculators

5/19/2020 1:47 PM

jaguar57 wrote:

Well we aren't in the 70's when all the oils had the same viscosity. That is what determines the gas/oil ratio as well as the type engine cooling and the max RPM. So just talking ratios in 2020 is a very uninformed point of view. An oil made with group 1/2 petroleum oils mixed at 30:1 can protect as well as a fully synthetic oil mixed at 45:1.

I'd have to assume he's talking about running the same oil (at different ratios). Why would you test a new engine with Oil A at one ratio and oil B at a different ratio?

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